Ironmind bending certs

[Fist of Fury]

2 hours ago, bruce1337 said:

Why even have bending to measure who has the strongest wrists? 

Why not have a sledge levering cert. Way more wrist strength there than bending.

Exactly, it's about bending steel. You either do it braced or unbraced. Use which ever technique feels best for you. It's like saying a tennis player has to be playing with a one handed backhand in order to compete in tournaments.

[slazbob]

3 hours ago, David_wigren said:

Wasn’t your point that you wanted the red nail cert to be more dependent on wrist strength? Now it seems that you want just a slightly less efficient double overhand. Either you are absolutely clueless or I am, because I don’t understand your reasoning. To me it seems like you have now suddenly switched to not caring about wrist strength when it previously was the main motivation of your argument.

Yes, always thought it was a feat of wrist strength…plus other strength tied in. And felt, the under the chin, with half the  nail being wrapped…  so to have some over hang …was a way to take that specific strength and get around it. But, if you say different-you would know better than me. 
 

i feel it’s the same situation with deep set and ccs…same differences. But, make a difference. 

[David_wigren]

2 hours ago, slazbob said:

Yes, always thought it was a feat of wrist strength…plus other strength tied in. And felt, the under the chin, with half the  nail being wrapped…  so to have some over hang …was a way to take that specific strength and get around it. But, if you say different-you would know better than me. 
 

i feel it’s the same situation with deep set and ccs…same differences. But, make a difference. 

Grippers are alot easier to regulate though. All you have to do is add a block, or in this case a credit card, and you’re done. Bending is alot more complicated than that.

I see your point. For Ironmind though it all falls together due to a few issues.

It would be very difficult to regulate how you are allowed to wrap that doesn’t end up being super lengthy, odd and boring. Like, if you want to eliminate overhang, then you have to have rules that says that the wraps have to be triple folded and then you have to add rules which say how much overhang you’re allowed to have. It would be very difficult to measure how much overhang you have. Having a rule for which the wraps have to be wrapped at a certain distance apart would be easily abused, even wraps touching is easily abused by simply wrapping at an angle or being a little tricky with the folding to achieve some overhang. You don’t need much overhang for DO to still work. One inch overhang on each side is more than enough. So it’s really not possible practically to make this work.

You could try and make some rules as to bend in positions where “folding” is basically impossible. This would rule out DO and DU since you can fold with both those. The only style left is reverse and vertical. Vertical allows you to brace against the body though. So basically reverse is the only one left. But then it gets super tricky once you get past 60 degrees. It becomes a bit of a circus trick to bend a bar fully to a “U” in the reverse position. So either you abandon the idea of having to bend the red to a full “U” and settle for only bending it to an arbitrary angle, for example 40 degrees. But that would completely change the whole list and also make it look weird for everyone who isn’t a steel bender. On the other hand, if you do allow the bar to be finished DO once it’s been bent past a certain distance in the reverse position, you would have to stop the bend and measure it before transitioning. Otherwise it becomes an honor system thing. And if you do require to stop and measure before transitioning, well then we’re back to it being lengthy and boring. 

There’s also a continuity aspect to consider. All the bends thus far on the list has been finished in the DO position. Most of them were bent from start to finish in the DO position. Changing the rules 25 years after would ruin the continuity of what the challenge has been for a quarter of a century. 

If you want to bend with more wrist dependent styles there are alot other certs you could do.

There, I’m now talking with you as if you were an adult. Welcome to the conversation.

[bruce1337]

28 minutes ago, David_wigren said:

Grippers are alot easier to regulate though. All you have to do is add a block, or in this case a credit card, and you’re done. Bending is alot more complicated than that.

I see your point. For Ironmind though it all falls together due to a few issues.

It would be very difficult to regulate how you are allowed to wrap that doesn’t end up being super lengthy, odd and boring. Like, if you want to eliminate overhang, then you have to have rules that says that the wraps have to be triple folded and then you have to add rules which say how much overhang you’re allowed to have. It would be very difficult to measure how much overhang you have. Having a rule for which the wraps have to be wrapped at a certain distance apart would be easily abused, even wraps touching is easily abused by simply wrapping at an angle or being a little tricky with the folding to achieve some overhang. You don’t need much overhang for DO to still work. One inch overhang on each side is more than enough. So it’s really not possible practically to make this work.

You could try and make some rules as to bend in positions where “folding” is basically impossible. This would rule out DO and DU since you can fold with both those. The only style left is reverse and vertical. Vertical allows you to brace against the body though. So basically reverse is the only one left. But then it gets super tricky once you get past 60 degrees. It becomes a bit of a circus trick to bend a bar fully to a “U” in the reverse position. So either you abandon the idea of having to bend the red to a full “U” and settle for only bending it to an arbitrary angle, for example 40 degrees. But that would completely change the whole list and also make it look weird for everyone who isn’t a steel bender. On the other hand, if you do allow the bar to be finished DO once it’s been bent past a certain distance in the reverse position, you would have to stop the bend and measure it before transitioning. Otherwise it becomes an honor system thing. And if you do require to stop and measure before transitioning, well then we’re back to it being lengthy and boring. 

There’s also a continuity aspect to consider. All the bends thus far on the list has been finished in the DO position. Most of them were bent from start to finish in the DO position. Changing the rules 25 years after would ruin the continuity of what the challenge has been for a quarter of a century. 

If you want to bend with more wrist dependent styles there are alot other certs you could do.

There, I’m now talking with you as if you were an adult. Welcome to the conversation.

Tldr

[slazbob]

6 hours ago, David_wigren said:

Grippers are alot easier to regulate though. All you have to do is add a block, or in this case a credit card, and you’re done. Bending is alot more complicated than that.

I see your point. For Ironmind though it all falls together due to a few issues.

It would be very difficult to regulate how you are allowed to wrap that doesn’t end up being super lengthy, odd and boring. Like, if you want to eliminate overhang, then you have to have rules that says that the wraps have to be triple folded and then you have to add rules which say how much overhang you’re allowed to have. It would be very difficult to measure how much overhang you have. Having a rule for which the wraps have to be wrapped at a certain distance apart would be easily abused, even wraps touching is easily abused by simply wrapping at an angle or being a little tricky with the folding to achieve some overhang. You don’t need much overhang for DO to still work. One inch overhang on each side is more than enough. So it’s really not possible practically to make this work.

You could try and make some rules as to bend in positions where “folding” is basically impossible. This would rule out DO and DU since you can fold with both those. The only style left is reverse and vertical. Vertical allows you to brace against the body though. So basically reverse is the only one left. But then it gets super tricky once you get past 60 degrees. It becomes a bit of a circus trick to bend a bar fully to a “U” in the reverse position. So either you abandon the idea of having to bend the red to a full “U” and settle for only bending it to an arbitrary angle, for example 40 degrees. But that would completely change the whole list and also make it look weird for everyone who isn’t a steel bender. On the other hand, if you do allow the bar to be finished DO once it’s been bent past a certain distance in the reverse position, you would have to stop the bend and measure it before transitioning. Otherwise it becomes an honor system thing. And if you do require to stop and measure before transitioning, well then we’re back to it being lengthy and boring. 

There’s also a continuity aspect to consider. All the bends thus far on the list has been finished in the DO position. Most of them were bent from start to finish in the DO position. Changing the rules 25 years after would ruin the continuity of what the challenge has been for a quarter of a century. 

If you want to bend with more wrist dependent styles there are alot other certs you could do.

There, I’m now talking with you as if you were an adult. Welcome to the conversation.

The gripper part I referred to, was that the under the chin was easier than doing down in front of you - ccs vs DS. Do you disagree with that, David? 
 

I feel the wrists have to take the brunt of the work to get the kink and bend going from down in front…with the under the chin, I feel like it’s a crush with the chest…and using the slack to aid that. Is that incorrect? Again, it’s still strength at the end of the day…I just don’t know when that transition took place from traditional hand and wrist feat. 
Did the earlier certs use that chin technique? I’m not sure where or who started using it first. 

[bruce1337]

13 hours ago, slazbob said:

The gripper part I referred to, was that the under the chin was easier than doing down in front of you - ccs vs DS. Do you disagree with that, David? 
 

I feel the wrists have to take the brunt of the work to get the kink and bend going from down in front…with the under the chin, I feel like it’s a crush with the chest…and using the slack to aid that. Is that incorrect? Again, it’s still strength at the end of the day…I just don’t know when that transition took place from traditional hand and wrist feat. 
Did the earlier certs use that chin technique? I’m not sure where or who started using it first. 

Double Overhand (under the chin) was invented by the Holle brothers. They were the first to certify (2003) after many years or people believing the red nail was impossible to bend. After their technique was learned the majority of other people who certified thereafter was with the same technique. With the exception of a few doing it DU and Reverse. But even with the reverse, they could only kink it reverse to an arbitrary angle then finish it with a chest crush because Ironmind doesn't recognise different styles. 

Every other bending cert list has a different category for styles and there's a reason for that. 

The red nail cert list is like going to a powerlifting comp and the rules say you must lift 200kg to certify. But they dont mention how. So majority are gonna deadlift for their cert because most are strongest there. Then a few will squat for some style points. And a rare few will bench just to show off. But at the end of the day everyone is put in the same category of "lifted 200kg"

Now imagine that the comp had really old weights that weren't calibrated so from year to year the actual weight varied from 180kg to 220kg.

Edited March 2, 2022 by bruce1337

[BottledCitrus]

7 hours ago, bruce1337 said:

Double Overhand (under the chin) was invented by the Holle brothers. They were the first to certify (2003) after many years or people believing the red nail was impossible to bend. After their technique was learned the majority of other people who certified thereafter was with the same technique. With the exception of a few doing it DU and Reverse. But even with the reverse, they could only kink it reverse to an arbitrary angle then finish it with a chest crush because Ironmind doesn't recognise different styles. 

Every other bending cert list has a different category for styles and there's a reason for that. 

The red nail cert list is like going to a powerlifting comp and the rules say you must lift 200kg to certify. But they dont mention how. So majority are gonna deadlift for their cert because most are strongest there. Then a few will squat for some style points. And a rare few will bench just to show off. But at the end of the day everyone is put in the same category of "lifted 200kg"

Now imagine that the comp had really old weights that weren't calibrated so from year to year the actual weight varied from 180kg to 220kg.

Brilliant analogy 

[Cannon]

2 hours ago, BottledCitrus said:

With the exception of a few doing it DU

Dave Ostlund?

[stranger]

29 minutes ago, Cannon said:

Dave Ostlund?

I think Steve McGranahan (I think I butchered that spelling) also did DU. 

[BottledCitrus]

34 minutes ago, Cannon said:

Dave Ostlund?

yes sir. 

[slazbob]

9 hours ago, bruce1337 said:

Double Overhand (under the chin) was invented by the Holle brothers. They were the first to certify (2003) after many years or people believing the red nail was impossible to bend. After their technique was learned the majority of other people who certified thereafter was with the same technique. With the exception of a few doing it DU and Reverse. But even with the reverse, they could only kink it reverse to an arbitrary angle then finish it with a chest crush because Ironmind doesn't recognise different styles. 

Every other bending cert list has a different category for styles and there's a reason for that. 

The red nail cert list is like going to a powerlifting comp and the rules say you must lift 200kg to certify. But they dont mention how. So majority are gonna deadlift for their cert because most are strongest there. Then a few will squat for some style points. And a rare few will bench just to show off. But at the end of the day everyone is put in the same category of "lifted 200kg"

Now imagine that the comp had really old weights that weren't calibrated so from year to year the actual weight varied from 180kg to 220kg.

That explains why Randall didn’t blink an eye, because he was pushing the Holle brothers. With good reason- they are strong…even to this day I’m sure. If they didn’t come up with that, he would have scoffed at it I believe.

now he can’t, or maybe he can…we’ll see I guess. 

[David_wigren]

19 hours ago, slazbob said:

The gripper part I referred to, was that the under the chin was easier than doing down in front of you - ccs vs DS. Do you disagree with that, David? 
 

I feel the wrists have to take the brunt of the work to get the kink and bend going from down in front…with the under the chin, I feel like it’s a crush with the chest…and using the slack to aid that. Is that incorrect? Again, it’s still strength at the end of the day…I just don’t know when that transition took place from traditional hand and wrist feat. 
Did the earlier certs use that chin technique? I’m not sure where or who started using it first. 

I personally don’t place much importance of the chin. The chin is not involved with the bend at all. It’s all about the placement of the elbows. With the elbows higher you will, if you have the mobility, access a bit more inward crushing strength. By the looks of it Brookfield might have been the first to DO with inward folding crushing action. And then the Holle brothers improved the technique a bit by bringing the elbows higher.

[David_wigren]

2 hours ago, slazbob said:

That explains why Randall didn’t blink an eye, because he was pushing the Holle brothers. With good reason- they are strong…even to this day I’m sure. If they didn’t come up with that, he would have scoffed at it I believe.

now he can’t, or maybe he can…we’ll see I guess. 

At this point I’m waiting with eager anticipation for them to mess it all up. I’ll be the first to abuse the new rules when and if they come.

[slazbob]

2 hours ago, David_wigren said:

I personally don’t place much importance of the chin. The chin is not involved with the bend at all. It’s all about the placement of the elbows. With the elbows higher you will, if you have the mobility, access a bit more inward crushing strength. By the looks of it Brookfield might have been the first to DO with inward folding crushing action. And then the Holle brothers improved the technique a bit by bringing the elbows higher.

How are your shoulders from bending? It seems they get a lot of abuse. I’m not going to try and start bending now…but I got a Horne WD from Aaron and have been putting it in at the end of my grip workouts. I really like it, and it’s a favorite way of mine to bend. Like Chuck Sipes used to do.

I saw that level 14 video you posted and that’s pretty awesome. To me, 14 feels like when I was closing a no.1 and would try the no.3 

you have bent the red that way ..I think you said?

[gripmaniac]

I’ve never liked under the Chin style DO bending, never even tried and I never will.  The fact that it is now considered normal DO (not chest level or insanely hard waist level) amuses me quite a bit.  Nothing personal against anyone who chooses to bend using this technique – each to their own. . . . it’s just not my cup of tea.

 

Personally I’ve always considered the IM red cert to represent a demonstration of fundamentally wrist strength and in relation to Ironmind currently reviewing things I hope they will adopt a similar point of view and make a change or two.  I’d happily watch cert clips that utilized DU, Reverse, Slim, or traditional DO styles to bend a bar.  I’m not attacking anyone or for that matter criticizing the Holles for blazing the trail – but the gripper certs required tightening up – and now I believe so do the bending ones.

The only real issue I have is . . . . why now and not YEARS ago ??????

 

[slazbob]

8 hours ago, David_wigren said:

I personally don’t place much importance of the chin. The chin is not involved with the bend at all. It’s all about the placement of the elbows. With the elbows higher you will, if you have the mobility, access a bit more inward crushing strength. By the looks of it Brookfield might have been the first to DO with inward folding crushing action. And then the Holle brothers improved the technique a bit by bringing the elbows higher.

You don’t feel by trapping the nail in there and not worrying about it tipping forward or back isn’t helpful? The more you have to control the movement of something, the more force has to be applied to stabilize. A fixed point is reliable so you could maximize force elsewhere. 

[Donc101]

Moratorium lifted.

[Cannon]

So no bending rules changed?

[John McCarter]

13 minutes ago, Cannon said:

So no bending rules changed?

From what I can see, it's the same rules.

If anyone notices a change in the rules, please correct me.

[BottledCitrus]

Im confused…

[Cannon]

32 minutes ago, BottledCitrus said:

Im confused…

I mean, in hindsight, I suppose they never did say anything would change. Only that they were going to review the rules. 

[Lennix]

Yeah well this was surprising, perhaps all our emails did help! 

[bruce1337]

I am both confused and surprised. I guess our feedback did help.

Also it's a little weird that they announced it within another article. I would have totally missed it.

[stranger]

We'll, thank God they didn't change anything. I really didn't wanna have to credit card set a Red. 

[bruce1337]

9 minutes ago, stranger said:

We'll, thank God they didn't change anything. I really didn't wanna have to credit card set a Red. 

I almost did a spit take