Hubgeezer Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 17 minutes ago, Cannon said: I thought it would just be whatever changes to the cert. I presume that is coming. I don't see any changes yet. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McCarter Posted February 15 Author Share Posted February 15 Video is live on my youtube. I'm not going to link. I will leave the video there. I'm moving beyond this 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McCarter Posted February 15 Author Share Posted February 15 (edited) One final thing I will mention. I've said I went out of my way to privately contact different grip companies who offer certifications for grippers and lifts. They got back with me with regard to the certifications and everyone said they had decided to remove him from their respected list. Edited February 15 by John McCarter 8 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandsMcHanderson Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 22 hours ago, John McCarter said: One final thing I will mention. I've said I went out of my way to privately contact different grip companies who offer certifications for grippers and lifts. They got back with me with regard to the certifications and everyone said they had decided to remove him from their respected list. That’s the best possible outcome. Glad you put in the effort. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steeve tremblay Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 oln can't fool people, those who know in the long term without getting caught. we must disrespect our own reputation and we remain in our solitude because we cannot lie to ourselves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C8Myotome Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 (edited) Here's your latest fraudster, @gotttotersteinbohrer1092 on youtube "the standing man"; @Jared P brought this to my attention as being fake, I remembered seeing this kid like a year ago and then forgot about him as he hasn't posted anything since, you can see him clearly obstructing view of the spring to show the camera 3.5 handles, then does the close far away, the spring is visibly black like a heavy grips spring which 3.5's don't have. His only other videos are of using 50 lb increment grippers like heavy grips 300, and no videos of actual training with CoC grippers other than these fake 3.5 closes. If i remember correctly I think he's from south america, he might have posted on here way back, maybe it was reddit, I don't remember. Here is another video where you can see how black the spring is on his fake 3.5: It seems to be a common theme with grip fraudsters to constantly bring up their supposed disadvantage; i.e. "i'm a _____ but look at me close this sketchy 3.5" to bring attention to them being low body weight, vegetarian, a teenager, etc., to try to get even more attention/credibility for their already fake feat Edited March 10 by C8Myotome 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce1337 Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 Looks alot like guy. Are the the same person? https://www.ironmind.com/news/Jermiah-Merciconah-Certifies-on-the-Captains-of-Crush-No.-3-Gripper/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C8Myotome Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 Just now, bruce1337 said: Looks alot like guy. Are the the same person? https://www.ironmind.com/news/Jermiah-Merciconah-Certifies-on-the-Captains-of-Crush-No.-3-Gripper/ Lol no Jeremiah is legit. The kid I posted above is a teenager 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce1337 Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 Just now, C8Myotome said: Lol no Jeremiah is legit. The kid I posted above is a teenager Makes sense. Jeremiah seemed to look alot older but they shared some facial features and hair style. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jared P Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 (edited) I think it is useful to post these things here not so much for any drama, but as another case study in what cheating looks like. This stuff has become even more apparent now post-Tiziano, and after the experiments @dubyagrip ran. There are a number of factors that, to me, make it likely that his CoC 3.5 CCS close, at the very least, is fraudulent. Here is his first video, posted on January 24, 2022, of him doing 15 reps on a 200 lbs generic Chinese spring gripper. The title of his video says this is a "coc 2 equivalent". In reality, these grippers are a CoC 1.5 equivalent, and rate around 88 lbs rgc. Doing 15 wide set reps at this RGC is something I can do easily, and my best CCS PR is a few millimeters off from 122 rgc at the moment. Something to keep in mind. Here is his next video, posted the next day on January 25, 2022, of his attempt at closing a 300 lbs generic Chinese spring gripper. These universally rate right around 145 lbs rgc, regardless of the brand, and have a narrow spread. His attempt was somewhere around 10-12 mm off, by the looks of it. So he's probably got another 1-3 months at least of training to get this gripper closed at this point. In his next video about 5 weeks later on March 1, 2022, he posts this video with the same gripper, closing it from a deep set, using his legs to set the gripper. 3 months later, on June 11, 2022, he posts this video of doing 5 wide set reps on this same 300 lb gripper (145 rgc). So he went from having having to leg set and deep set this gripper to get it closed, to doing 5 wide set reps, in 3 months time. This is also 6 months after his attempt of being 10-12mm away from being able to close the gripper, to doing 5 wide set reps. 1 month later, on July 9, 2022, he posts this video of his attempt at a CoC 3.5 from a wide set, which was about 8-10 mm away. 3 months later, on October 9, 2022, he posts this video of closing the CoC 3.5 at 17 years old, from what looks like a parallel set. You will notice that the spring on the gripper looks drastically different from the video above, where it looks like a polished GR8 spring. The spring in the video below looks very black instead, and nothing like the polished GR8 spring above. He holds it closed for 10 seconds. You will also notice that he hides the gripper opening back up from the camera. A month and a half later on November 30, 2022, he shows his attempt at a CoC 3.5 CCS which was about 10mm off. 2 months later on January 27, 2023, he posts this video of successfully CCS closing the CoC 3.5 for one rep, and gets about 10mm away on the second rep. This first CCS close of a CoC 3.5 comes almost exactly 1 year after the first video of him attempting the 300 lbs (145 rgc) gripper, and 9 months after first closing the 145 rgc gripper from deep leg set. 9 months from a deep leg set of a narrow 145 lbs rgc generic gripper, to CCSing a CoC 3.5. The timeline simply doesn't add up: January 25, 2022 - 10mm away from 145 rgc March 1, 2022 - Deep set / leg set of 145 rgc June 11, 2022 - 5 wide set reps of 145 rgc July 9, 2022 - Wide set attempt at CoC 3.5, 10mm away October 9, 2022 - MMS close of CoC 3.5, held closed for 10 seconds November 30, 2022 - CCS attempt at CoC 3.5, 10mm off January 27, 2023 - CCS close of CoC 3.5, for 1 almost 2 reps 1 year and 2 days of training, to go from 10mm off 145 rgc, to CCS closing his 3.5 for 1, almost 2 reps. Despite easily CCSing the 3.5, much like pasta man, he showed no desire to certify on the 3. Too easy for him. In his comments, he also stated that he only owns 3 grippers total. A generic 200 lbs gripper, a generic 300 lbs gripper, and the CoC 3.5, which is odd considering the level and dedication of training involved to close grippers at this high of a level, especially at the rapid rate of progress that he claims. Even people like Ivan Cuk, who is an exceptional athlete with superior genetics and size, trained for two years before certifying on the 3.5, which is remarkable. Others like Carl, Jaland, and Derek, with rare starting strengths around the CoC 3 level, had the size and years of strength training history to warrant their pace to the 3.5, and even for them it didn't happen after only 9 months of first leg setting a narrow 145 rgc generic gripper. Unless this kid is Ivan Cuk 2.0, I do not believe his 3.5 closes are legitimate. Edited March 10 by Jared P 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C8Myotome Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Jared P said: I think it is useful to post these things here not so much for any drama, but as another case study in what cheating looks like. This stuff has become even more apparent now post-Tiziano, and after the experiments @dubyagrip ran. There are a number of factors that, to me, make it likely that his CoC 3.5 CCS close, at the very least, is fraudulent. Here is his first video, posted on January 24, 2022, of him doing 15 reps on a 200 lbs generic Chinese spring gripper. The title of his video says this is a "coc 2 equivalent". In reality, these grippers are a CoC 1.5 equivalent, and rate around 88 lbs rgc. Doing 15 wide set reps at this RGC is something I can do easily, and my best CCS PR is a few millimeters off from 122 rgc at the moment. Something to keep in mind. Here is his next video, posted the next day on January 25, 2022, of his attempt at closing a 300 lbs generic Chinese spring gripper. These universally rate right around 145 lbs rgc, regardless of the brand, and have a narrow spread. His attempt was somewhere around 10-12 mm off, by the looks of it. So he's probably got another 1-3 months at least of training to get this gripper closed at this point. In his next video about 5 weeks later on March 1, 2022, he posts this video with the same gripper, closing it from a deep set, using his legs to set the gripper. 3 months later, on June 11, 2022, he posts this video of doing 5 wide set reps on this same gripper 300 lb gripper (145 rgc). So he went from having having to leg set and deep set this gripper to get it closed, to doing 5 wide set reps, in 3 months time. This is also 6 months after his attempt of being 10-12mm away from being able to close the gripper, to doing 5 wide set reps. 1 month later, on July 9, 2022, he posts this video of his attempt at a CoC 3.5 from a wide set, which was about 8-10 mm away. 3 months later, on October 9, 2022, he posts this video of closing the CoC 3.5 at 17 years old, from what looks like a parallel set. You will notice that the spring on the gripper looks drastically different from the video above, where it looks like a polished GR8 spring. The spring in the video below looks very black instead, and nothing like the polished GR8 spring above. He holds it closed for 10 seconds. You will also notice that he hides the gripper opening back up from the camera. A month and a half later on November 30, 2022, he shows his attempt at a CoC 3.5 CCS which was about 10mm off. 2 months later on January 27, 2023, he posts this video of successfully CCS closing the CoC 3.5 for one rep, and gets about 10mm away on the second rep. This first CCS close of a CoC 3.5 comes almost exactly 1 year after the first video of him attempting the 300 lbs (145 rgc) gripper, and 9 months after first closing the 145 rgc gripper from deep leg set. 9 months from a deep leg set of a narrow 145 lbs rgc generic gripper, to CCSing a CoC 3.5. The timeline simply doesn't add up: January 25, 2022 - 10mm away from 145 rgc March 1, 2022 - Deep set / leg set of 145 rgc June 11, 2022 - 5 wide set reps of 145 rgc July 9, 2022 - Wide set attempt at CoC 3.5, 10mm away October 9, 2022 - MMS close of CoC 3.5, held closed for 10 seconds November 30, 2022 - CCS attempt at CoC 3.5, 10mm off January 27, 2023 - CCS close of CoC 3.5, for 1 almost 2 reps 1 year and 2 days of training, to go from 10mm off 145 rgc, to CCS closing his 3.5 for 1, almost 2 reps. Despite easily CCSing the 3.5, much like pasta man, he showed no desire to certify on the 3. Too easy for him. In his comments, he also stated that he only owns 3 grippers total. A generic 200 lbs gripper, a generic 300 lbs gripper, and the CoC 3.5, which is odd considering the level and dedication of training involved to close grippers at this high of a level, especially at the rapid rate of progress that he claims. Even people like Ivan Cuk, who is an exceptional athlete with superior genetics and size, trained for two years before certifying on the 3.5, which is remarkable. Others like Carl, Nathan, Jaland, and Derek, with rare starting strengths around the CoC 3 level, had the size and years of strength training history to warrant their pace to the 3.5, and even for them it didn't happen after only 9 months of first leg setting a narrow 145 rgc generic gripper. Unless this kid is Ivan Cuk 2.0, I do not believe his 3.5 closes are legitimate. Wow thanks for taking the time to put together a timeline, I had not looked into it too deeply at all other than watching a few videos. I don't think it's impossible for someone that age to potentially be that strong however if they were, there would be not much to be skeptical about. I've never seen a coc 3.5 with a black spring before, I don't think they exist. I don't watch a ton of gripper videos but at least with me, most times I hold the handle in the same position I need to be in before setting it, I think I might have held it a bit more with 2 hands for my 3 cert just cause I was afraid of dropping it and made sure to show the spring up close. This kid holds his grippers with 2 hands to show the stamp to the camera while using his other hand to hide the spring while it is close to the camera. That is pasta man nonsense, there's no reason to do that, especially for just a training video. The age thing also makes it more statistically unlikely he is as strong as he claims, not that it's impossible, just more factors working against him. Also, I don't agree with the statement that any 50 lb gripper is "equivalent" to any coc, with equivalent rgc. This has been talked about so many times here and there's been math posted showing that for the same rgc, wider spread requires more actual physical work to complete the entire close, vs a 50 lb gripper which requires less work to complete the full close. Which shows very easily with pretty much everyone being able to close much heavier 50 lb grippers than coc. So no, there is never any true "equivalency" between CoC and 50 lb grippers. So, I don't believe that someone that only trains on 50 lb grippers is going to be doing much of anything with high level CoC grippers, much less a 3.5. There is training specificity and you need to be using CoC, GHP, Standard etc to prepare yourself for high level grippers like a 3.5. The black spring, him trying to hide it, somehow being that strong but having little to no online presence regarding feats, being a high schooler or around there with age, not having an actual gripper collection, etc, are all just things that add up to increase how sketchy these supposed feats by this person are. I didn't even watch enough videos to notice his other hand hiding view of how the gripper opened up, and I agree that's a very wonky supposed progression timeline that does not make any sense. If he would like to prove us wrong I would be open to hearing what he has to say. @Jared P additionally in the 2x3.5 CCS attempt video, on the 2nd rep look how relaxed his hand is for the 2nd rep, his thumb bops up and down cause of how relaxed he is with no muscle tension, even holding a 3.5 in a CCS position requires a ton of force, hmmmmm where have we seen this phenomenon before...I'm willing to confirm this guy a fake without even hearing anything he has to say after seeing that, because that's not how 3.5 CCS works, and we literally just saw tiziano do the same thing in his fake cert video with a fake spring. The only difference is this kid didn't know about the ape brand whatever it's called springs that look more similar to coc springs, the black spring makes this way too easy I don't think he is even using chalk in that video, he's just repping a fake 3.5 in his bedroom lol. You can't even make up stuff this funny Edited March 10 by C8Myotome 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slazbob Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 His spring looks tarnished, not black. I have grippers like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jared P Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 2 minutes ago, slazbob said: His spring looks tarnished, not black. I have grippers like that. How long does that process take? 3 months earlier, the spring looked brand new and shiny. According to his own comments, this is the only 3.5 he owns. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jared P Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 (edited) 145 rgc deep set --> unrated CoC 3.5 credit card set simply isn't a realistic 9 month progression, I don't care how good your training is. Casually CCS repping the 3.5 like he did puts him in the same category of names such as Gabriel Sum, Jonathan Vogt, Juha Harju, and Paul Knight. An unrated 3.5 CCS close matches their personal PRs. This 17 year old claims to have the same strength after 1 year of training. How many people have ever CCSed a 3.5? Probably less than 30-50 people in history. How many did it after 1 year of training? Edited March 10 by Jared P 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slazbob Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 13 minutes ago, Jared P said: How long does that process take? 3 months earlier, the spring looked brand new and shiny. According to his own comments, this is the only 3.5 he owns. I definitely have them for years. I don’t know if it’s environment or lubes or both. I don’t oil my grippers very often, but maybe they can do that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C8Myotome Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 Springs aside we cannot ignore how effortless and relaxed his 2x3.5 ccs attempt looked, might as well have been laying in a lawn chair in the sun for it, anyone who has CCS'd a 3.5 or done really any challenging ccs at all, knows how much thumb muscle tension you need to keep the handle in place, especially if you're repping it and expecting to maintain thumb/handle position. This dude was literally twiddling his thumb in between reps with a "3.5", that's how much of a joke this is, it looks exactly like the pasta man AMRAP cert video, the gripper doesn't wanna open up Anyone (minus the guy that was determined to only cert the 4) that can CCS a 3.5 should be certified on the 3, if they're not, something is up. That's all there is to it. Pasta man wanted us to think he was too good for the 3 cert also 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Cuk Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 3 minutes ago, Jared P said: 145 rgc deep set --> unrated CoC 3.5 credit card set simply isn't a realistic 9 month progression, I don't care how good your training is. Casually CCS repping the 3.5 like he did puts him in the same category of names such as Gabriel Sum, Jonathan Vogt, Juha Harju, and Paul Knight. An unrated 3.5 CCS close matches their personal PRs. This 17 year old claims to have the same strength after 1 year of training. How many people have ever CCSed a 3.5? Probably less than 30-50 people in history. How many did it after 1 year of training? This is also somewhat in response to your other post but the 2 year time frame was how much time passed in between getting my first gripper and when I certified my 3.5. In the first 4 months that I bought my 1.5 I went from 1.5 to a 2.5 (wide sets). Then from then it was about 6 months where I only had done grippers a couple times. After training again for a month I was able to close my 3. Then I took another break where again its only a couple times where I did grippers but this time it was 8.5 months, when I came back in efforts to cert the #3. It was about 2 sessions (every other week) before I could close my #3 (unrated). Which was January of 2021, from then to June of 21 I gained about 30-35 rgc in wide/ccs. Of course after I reached the 190s the progress started slowing down, which seems to be a common rgc range where people get stuck in. Its about as far as you're going to get without hammering volume for your flexors. My training was 4-6 attempts per session and the frequency was very much feel based. Keep in mind these are progressions although not done consistently were done throughout years 16,17,18 so the adaptations occurred rather quickly since you're growing muscle. As opposed to guys who have indirectly built their forearms to a significant size due to general training for years then gaining rgc quickly due to neural adaptations but quickly stalling out. It wasn't the most optimal training but it yielded results, just thought I'd clarify in this context of the comparison of progress. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestandingman Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 Hello guys its the standing man, the guy from the video, so i saw that some people think im a fraud and faked my grippers, they talked about the spring being black or something like that, but it is actually very rusty because of the place i live rio de janeiro, is one of the hottest places in Brazil and has a lot of humidity and things get rusty Very fast in matter of weeks, also i have zero online presence because i have no Desire to get recognition or certificate in anything since my Focus is now shifted directly to armwrestling, in couple days or in a week i will Record a video in good quality showing the 3.5 and closing it and also measuring the spring and the spread of the gripper, and i will also show that the spring is legit and not black as the dude claimed to be, and another reason for me to not be certified on 3 already is because i live in Brazil, a Very bad country to live, everything is too expensive, and i rather spend my money in crucial things to my daily life than certification on grippers, and yes all my progress towards 3.5 was made with three grippers, now i have a little bit more, i have a number four, a hulk gripper and a titanium from cannon, may everyone have a great day, and may God bless you all guys, bye. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stranger Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 9 minutes ago, thestandingman said: Hello guys its the standing man, the guy from the video, so i saw that some people think im a fraud and faked my grippers, they talked about the spring being black or something like that, but it is actually very rusty because of the place i live rio de janeiro, is one of the hottest places in Brazil and has a lot of humidity and things get rusty Very fast in matter of weeks, also i have zero online presence because i have no Desire to get recognition or certificate in anything since my Focus is now shifted directly to armwrestling, in couple days or in a week i will Record a video in good quality showing the 3.5 and closing it and also measuring the spring and the spread of the gripper, and i will also show that the spring is legit and not black as the dude claimed to be, and another reason for me to not be certified on 3 already is because i live in Brazil, a Very bad country to live, everything is too expensive, and i rather spend my money in crucial things to my daily life than certification on grippers, and yes all my progress towards 3.5 was made with three grippers, now i have a little bit more, i have a number four, a hulk gripper and a titanium from cannon, may everyone have a great day, and may God bless you all guys, bye. Did you get any of those grippers from Cannon rated? Just curious because maybe you have a easy 3.5 and that could explain the rapid progression. If you film another 3.5 close and have calipers can you also measure the spread before and after closing? (Along with the spring obviously) I know you probably feel as though you're being attacked but we just felt with a guy that cheated on certs for years so tensions are high so don't take it personal. Best of luck. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestandingman Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 1 minute ago, stranger said: Did you get any of those grippers from Cannon rated? Just curious because maybe you have a easy 3.5 and that could explain the rapid progression. If you film another 3.5 close and have calipers can you also measure the spread before and after closing? (Along with the spring obviously) I know you probably feel as though you're being attacked but we just felt with a guy that cheated on certs for years so tensions are high so don't take it personal. Best of luck. I got that one from eBay, its not rated, the resistance fells similar to my titanium that is from the new sg grippers version, i think it its an average one or below average, idk since i dont have much things to compare I know its not personal brother, its Fine, i know you guys are making your best to protect the grip comunnity from those cheaters I will try to get a manual caliper as Quick as possible, if not i will use a ruler to measure it. best of luck to you too Bro. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jared P Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 25 minutes ago, thestandingman said: Hello guys its the standing man, the guy from the video, so i saw that some people think im a fraud and faked my grippers, they talked about the spring being black or something like that, but it is actually very rusty because of the place i live rio de janeiro, is one of the hottest places in Brazil and has a lot of humidity and things get rusty Very fast in matter of weeks, also i have zero online presence because i have no Desire to get recognition or certificate in anything since my Focus is now shifted directly to armwrestling, in couple days or in a week i will Record a video in good quality showing the 3.5 and closing it and also measuring the spring and the spread of the gripper, and i will also show that the spring is legit and not black as the dude claimed to be, and another reason for me to not be certified on 3 already is because i live in Brazil, a Very bad country to live, everything is too expensive, and i rather spend my money in crucial things to my daily life than certification on grippers, and yes all my progress towards 3.5 was made with three grippers, now i have a little bit more, i have a number four, a hulk gripper and a titanium from cannon, may everyone have a great day, and may God bless you all guys, bye. Hey man, glad to see you on the GripBoard. Respect for showing up. If your closes are indeed legitimate, I will be the first one to be majorly impressed and apologize for suspecting that they were fraudulent. You'd have great potential with grippers, similar to Ivan Cuk, if everything is legit. One dilemma is that it has been a year since your video of CCSing the 3.5, so you could have since improved to that level, that wasn't initially possible in 9 months time, but certainly possible in 1 year and 9 months time - especially if your 3.5 is rated on the lighter side (low to mid 160s). Either way, I hope we'll see soon enough. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestandingman Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 27 minutes ago, Jared P said: Hey man, glad to see you on the GripBoard. Respect for showing up. If your closes are indeed legitimate, I will be the first one to be majorly impressed and apologize for suspecting that they were fraudulent. You'd have great potential with grippers, similar to Ivan Cuk, if everything is legit. One dilemma is that it has been a year since your video of CCSing the 3.5, so you could have since improved to that level, that wasn't initially possible in 9 months time, but certainly possible in 1 year and 9 months time - especially if your 3.5 is rated on the lighter side (low to mid 160s). Either way, I hope we'll see soon enough. Yea its been a long time since this video, couple months after that i managed to hit 4 MMS reps on this 3.5 and after that i almost stopped training grippers, before last week i was 5 months off from grippers because of wrist injury i got competing in aw, last Sunday i did hg 300 for 10 reps that was the last session i did, im a little bit weaker than before in grip matter but i got stronger overall and managed to add significant mass to forearms, in those videos i was like 96-98 kg now i am 106-107 kg, hopefully in the following months i can progress a little bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubyagrip Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 @thestandingman If you felt the need to join today to address these questions, why do you need to wait a week to film what should be an easy close for you? It just seems odd you haven't already filmed something to immediately put an end to the questions, to be honest. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 4 hours ago, thestandingman said: a Very bad country to live, everything is too expensive, and i rather spend my money in crucial things to my daily life than certification on grippers The certification is free 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce1337 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 4 hours ago, thestandingman said: everything is too expensive, and i rather spend my money in crucial things to my daily life than certification on grippers Luckily the Ironmind certification is free and you also get to keep the gripper. So there's no downside to certifying. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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