Grip Strength Nationals

[MalachiMcMullen]

The HHold, FW's, medleys that include more than simple deadlifts and loads, axle deadlifts, axle clean and press, duck walks, power stairs, thick DB clean and pressing. These are just off the top of my head. All of these could be tweaked to tax the grip before the body and could use different weights or handle sizes for different classes if needed.

Again, what do we want, grip stuff or strongman? I don't want grip contests to be second-rate strongman events. Yup, Tommy Helsep would get his ass whooped on a bunch of the above events, but he would do nicely in a grip contest.

We've got a decent grassroots following. Buiding on that may be the key.

I've had some ideas before, but Chris is a good voice of experience. He's seen the birth of a few of these things.

That's where the tweaking comes in. No one here is afraid of doing the super heavy HHold at the BBB, it's friggin awesome and a grip test. In the FW, we could adopt something like Aaron's RT handled setups or just use 2.5"-3" handles to keep the weights down. 150 per hand is like deadlifting 250lbs on a trap bar, it really is that easy. On the duck walks, we could use a sandbag or someother interesting, and hard to hold, device. The Power stairs we could do the same with. The pressing is a bit much for a grip comp, but it was just an exercise I figured I'd throw out. We could just contest the clean portion, perhaps even a snatch? The axle stuff could be all DO and/or for reps using different weights for different classes(this would work better for weight classes though). I hear you about the strongman stuff, it was just a suggestion to up the visual part of grip, not necessarily where I think it should ultimately end up.

[Bob Lipinski]

Now Zach, I do love the cleans. That would be a good event for more comps.

[jad]

I'm not afraid of competing against any bigger stronger guys.

What some people want to do is take out traditional tests of grip strength and replace them with events that test hand size. If you want to do that, get a ruler. It would be easy for a lot of guys to beat David Horne at a contest that consisted of:

Blob by the face

7 10's pinch

3" bar DO deadlift

Credit card charge gripper

Would they be stronger than David at grip? Maybe, but the events wouldn't test it.

Test grip strength. Rex, I don't see what your deal is, you aren't exactly setting the world on fire at contests. I want the biggest, strongest guys to compete at grip. At GRIP! Bring anyone bigger and stronger on. Let them try to beat us at our game.

Exactly, it's supposed to test grip strength not hand length. It's not's strongman, again it's supposed to test grip strength, not total body strength. If you want to keep grip contests grip-oriented by avoiding handsize fests, you're not scared of the "bigger stronger" guys and you're not trying to protect your turf, you're just keeping the sport true to its intent. I'd love to see the freaks show up but I'm not going to cater to them by rearranging events to suit them/interest them and flip-flopping contests around to suit their schedule. They either want to play or they don't.

Edited February 2, 2009 by jad

[John Beatty]

Rex-

I know you're against bending, even though in prior agruments we're agreed it does work the hands/wrists. Again, I think bending should stay, it's one of the better visual events, and it's an event thet interests new people. When you get someone into Grip, what 3 things do most of them get right away? Phone books, Grippers & Bending! Bending is usually what people get good at the fastest, and people will be more apt to continue if they get good at something quickly. I'm not the decision maker here, but just putting out suggestions.

[The Natural]

Rex-

I know you're against bending, even though in prior agruments we're agreed it does work the hands/wrists. Again, I think bending should stay, it's one of the better visual events, and it's an event thet interests new people. When you get someone into Grip, what 3 things do most of them get right away? Phone books, Grippers & Bending! Bending is usually what people get good at the fastest, and people will be more apt to continue if they get good at something quickly. I'm not the decision maker here, but just putting out suggestions.

The main thing I like about bending is that it involves mental toughness. Most of the comment events--2HP, axle, grippers, medley--do not involve any significant mental toughness; they just don't hurt like bending does. Any strength sport should involve mental toughness, I think, and so including bending accomplishes that.

But we are trying to answer the question "Who has the strongest hands?" when we host a contest, and, unfortunately, if we include bending, then the answer to that question is not as certain as it could be. There are plenty of cases where someone with so-so hand strength jumps way ahead in the bending event. This distorts the final results and fails to answer the question that the contest was intended to answer.

This is another reason why I am fond of having a farmer's hold as an event. It involves lots of mental toughness and, at least for most people, tests the grip primarily. But most of you remember what happened when I suggested that the farmer's hold be an event. It wasn't pretty.

Eric Milfeld told me that Chris Rice's contest involves a 100 pound plate rim hold (one in each hand) for time. I like that event. It involves mental toughness and doesn't put lots of stress on anyone's back/legs.

I imagine some pro strongmen hearing that they will have to train for steel bending in order to be competitive at some grip contest, and they decide not to show up for just that reason. Bending involves lots of wear and tear on the body. It's probably not a risk that they'd be willing to take. Maybe bending could be a part of some entertainment-oriented show that goes on in-between the events of a grip contest. Some guy gets the crowd involved with bending, tearing, etc. I could see us having lots of room for visually impressive feats on the side of a grip contest, just not as an event.

-Rex

Edited February 2, 2009 by The Natural

[Matt Brouse]

Rex-

I know you're against bending, even though in prior agruments we're agreed it does work the hands/wrists. Again, I think bending should stay, it's one of the better visual events, and it's an event thet interests new people. When you get someone into Grip, what 3 things do most of them get right away? Phone books, Grippers & Bending! Bending is usually what people get good at the fastest, and people will be more apt to continue if they get good at something quickly. I'm not the decision maker here, but just putting out suggestions.

The main thing I like about bending is that it involves mental toughness. Most of the comment events--2HP, axle, grippers, medley--do not involve any significant mental toughness; they just don't hurt like bending does. Any strength sport should involve mental toughness, I think, and so including bending accomplishes that.

But we are trying to answer the question "Who has the strongest hands?" when we host a contest, and, unfortunately, if we include bending, then the answer to that question is not as certain as it could be. There are plenty of cases where someone with so-so hand strength jumps way ahead in the bending event. This distorts the final results and fails to answer the question that the contest was intended to answer.

This is another reason why I am fond of having a farmer's hold as an event. It involves lots of mental toughness and, at least for most people, tests the grip primarily. But most of you remember what happened when I suggested that the farmer's hold be an event. It wasn't pretty.

Eric Milfeld told me that Chris Rice's contest involves a 100 pound plate rim hold (one in each hand) for time. I like that event. It involves mental toughness and doesn't put lots of stress on anyone's back/legs.

I imagine some pro strongmen hearing that they will have to train for steel bending in order to be competitive at some grip contest, and they decide not to show up for just that reason. Bending involves lots of wear and tear on the body. It's probably not a risk that they'd be willing to take. Maybe bending could be a part of some entertainment-oriented show that goes on in-between the events of a grip contest. Some guy gets the crowd involved with bending, tearing, etc. I could see us having lots of room for visually impressive feats on the side of a grip contest, just not as an event.

-Rex

I guess I've always thought of it as a Hand and Lower Arm sport.

I'm guilty of this one. Pressing big weights and bending have proved an overbearing combination to a couple extremely strong cats I know.

[John Beatty]

Rex-

I know you're against bending, even though in prior agruments we're agreed it does work the hands/wrists. Again, I think bending should stay, it's one of the better visual events, and it's an event thet interests new people. When you get someone into Grip, what 3 things do most of them get right away? Phone books, Grippers & Bending! Bending is usually what people get good at the fastest, and people will be more apt to continue if they get good at something quickly. I'm not the decision maker here, but just putting out suggestions.

The main thing I like about bending is that it involves mental toughness. Most of the comment events--2HP, axle, grippers, medley--do not involve any significant mental toughness; they just don't hurt like bending does. Any strength sport should involve mental toughness, I think, and so including bending accomplishes that.

But we are trying to answer the question "Who has the strongest hands?" when we host a contest, and, unfortunately, if we include bending, then the answer to that question is not as certain as it could be. There are plenty of cases where someone with so-so hand strength jumps way ahead in the bending event. This distorts the final results and fails to answer the question that the contest was intended to answer.

This is another reason why I am fond of having a farmer's hold as an event. It involves lots of mental toughness and, at least for most people, tests the grip primarily. But most of you remember what happened when I suggested that the farmer's hold be an event. It wasn't pretty.

Eric Milfeld told me that Chris Rice's contest involves a 100 pound plate rim hold (one in each hand) for time. I like that event. It involves mental toughness and doesn't put lots of stress on anyone's back/legs.

I imagine some pro strongmen hearing that they will have to train for steel bending in order to be competitive at some grip contest, and they decide not to show up for just that reason. Bending involves lots of wear and tear on the body. It's probably not a risk that they'd be willing to take. Maybe bending could be a part of some entertainment-oriented show that goes on in-between the events of a grip contest. Some guy gets the crowd involved with bending, tearing, etc. I could see us having lots of room for visually impressive feats on the side of a grip contest, just not as an event.

-Rex

I'm with you on the bulk of this, but I honestly don't think we'll ever see any Pro Strongmen in grip, at least with any regularity. If there's enough money, but not otherwise. Maybe some am's, or a lower level pro like me, who just likes a new challenge, and the atmosphere, but Pro Strongmen will train to be Pro Strongmen, not Gripsters.

I like bending - I did even when I wasn't any good at it, it always goes over big in exhibitions, and it's a great visual, and I see your point from the "they won't risk it", but if bending was in a strongman comp, they'd do it, I don't think strongmen will stay out of a meet because of bending, I think they'll stay out because they aren't interested in picking up another sport. Every event in Strongman involves a lot of wear & tear on the body (maybe with the exception of keg toss), I really don't believe that will be the limiting factor. I think the bulk of strongmen will look at Grip as a curiosity, and an occasional challenge if it's convenient, but not something they'll compete in regularly, maybe a few, but not many. I think our main aim should be recruiting the average to strong guy, or young guys (HS) that like strength & see where we can go with new guys. I think pulling guys off Strongman & PL won't be very successful, unless they've been injured to the point of looking for a new sport.

Scale weight hold is aother good one for the low weight, high pain tolerance events.

[Wade Gillingham]

Who is trying to change the sport into a test of hand size?

[climber511]

We started out with an announcement of the Nationals to be held at Jedd's place in Towanda - now I'm not sure where we are. I would like to have that contest under the umbrella of a completed grip organization but if not then not I guess - nobody has come forward to offer to do the work. The events will be the promoters choice as usual. I think we wanted to get some bigger names from strength to do grip contests but I'm not sure anymore. Now we're talking about events - I think. I can't keep up.

[abagh89]

Not that my opinion matters much, but im going to post anyway .

I think grip tests for something like the "grip strength nationals" should test GRIP strength and nothing else. Adding things like the hercules hold, farmers walks, is not going to solve anything. They already do that in strongman. I agree with what was posted earlier that you should not change the sport of grip to suit people in other strength sports. What next? you guys are going to suggest we add karate demonstrations in grip contests to draw a crowd from the guys who do martial arts? Now i understand having pro strongman at grip events would do wonders for the sport. But at what cost? change grip to something it is not?

This thread reminds me of the countless arguements that i have seen about arm wrestling. ARM WRESTLING is trying to get more popular and mainstream and its having trouble, so what makes anyone think grip will draw a huge turnout and become this national craze? Face it guys, you arent going to see all the kids walking around the street with a gripper in their pocket doing closes throughout the day. Someone also tried to make arm wrestling more "Visually entertaining". If you don’t remember this is what happened…

Now as you can see that didn’t quite catch on..

If you guys want “visually entertaining”. Stand outside the grip contests with a clown costume and dance around..

[Bob Lipinski]

Chris, do we even know what we want sometimes ?

[Wade Gillingham]

Not that my opinion matters much, but im going to post anyway .

I think grip tests for something like the "grip strength nationals" should test GRIP strength and nothing else. Adding things like the hercules hold, farmers walks, is not going to solve anything. They already do that in strongman. I agree with what was posted earlier that you should not change the sport of grip to suit people in other strength sports. What next? you guys are going to suggest we add karate demonstrations in grip contests to draw a crowd from the guys who do martial arts? Now i understand having pro strongman at grip events would do wonders for the sport. But at what cost? change grip to something it is not?

This thread reminds me of the countless arguements that i have seen about arm wrestling. ARM WRESTLING is trying to get more popular and mainstream and its having trouble, so what makes anyone think grip will draw a huge turnout and become this national craze? Face it guys, you arent going to see all the kids walking around the street with a gripper in their pocket doing closes throughout the day. Someone also tried to make arm wrestling more "Visually entertaining". If you don’t remember this is what happened…

Now as you can see that didn’t quite catch on..

If you guys want “visually entertaining”. Stand outside the grip contests with a clown costume and dance around..

Again, who is advocating changing the sport. This thread was about organizing a better nationals.

Grip is every bit as popular as armwrestling - probably more so. Anybody who messes around with armwrestling knows it hurts like hell until you get used to it so they shy away if they aren't serious. People also mistake big with strong in armwrestling so a smaller guy isn't going to challenge a bigger guy. Not so with squeezing a gripper or trying to pick something up their hands. We run 2000+ people through the GNC Grip Gauntlet at the Arnold because people have egos and can't believe it is that hard - plus it is realatively risk free. So although a grip contest is not as visually appealing as someone deadlifting 8 hummer tires, and doesn't have the man-on-man excitement of armwrestling, it does have a natural audience especially if you can draw them into what you are doing. Don't sell it short - there are a lot of kids walking around with grippers in their pockets and if they take it out everyone at the table will give it a try.

[jad]

Who is trying to change the sport into a test of hand size?

Those who want axle DL because strongmen can relate to it

Those who want thickhandled farmers because strongmen can relate to it and it's thickbar so it has to test grip right?

Those who want the grip gauntlet to be a qualifer. Are you freakin kidding me! The whole thing is handsize dependent; blob, CCS a #3, and RT

Those who allow things like blob by the face to be in the medleys

Those who oppose handsize divisions but see no problem with the above lifts and many others that I just frankly don't have the time to type out

[John Beatty]

Not that my opinion matters much, but im going to post anyway .

I think grip tests for something like the "grip strength nationals" should test GRIP strength and nothing else. Adding things like the hercules hold, farmers walks, is not going to solve anything. They already do that in strongman. I agree with what was posted earlier that you should not change the sport of grip to suit people in other strength sports. What next? you guys are going to suggest we add karate demonstrations in grip contests to draw a crowd from the guys who do martial arts? Now i understand having pro strongman at grip events would do wonders for the sport. But at what cost? change grip to something it is not?

This thread reminds me of the countless arguements that i have seen about arm wrestling. ARM WRESTLING is trying to get more popular and mainstream and its having trouble, so what makes anyone think grip will draw a huge turnout and become this national craze? Face it guys, you arent going to see all the kids walking around the street with a gripper in their pocket doing closes throughout the day. Someone also tried to make arm wrestling more "Visually entertaining". If you don’t remember this is what happened…

Now as you can see that didn’t quite catch on..

If you guys want “visually entertaining”. Stand outside the grip contests with a clown costume and dance around..

Herc Hold is nothing but a grip event. It just looks cool.

[vikingsrule92]

I was thinking about something today while wandering the halls at school, people most likely won't listen to me at all on this point but what the hell, it's worth a shot.

I don't know about you guys, but I have absolutely no desire to be like Powerlifting in nearly every way. One of the things that I love the most about this sport is the pure camaraderie of it which you simply don't see in Powerlifting, well at least not nearly as much or to the extent that grip has. I'm all for the growth of this sport but if it means sacrificing the friendship between all grip competitors (which, if you ask me, it definitely does) then I say to hell with it and let's keep it growing gradually as it has in the last few years. Because realistically if people start coming for the money as they do in PL, SM, etc instead of the pure love of the sport, competition, and meeting new friends/seeing old ones again then personally I don't see it as a good thing. Sure some will say "Oh they'll come for the money and stay for the fun" but I really don't see that as coming true at all, more of an ideal then a reality. I say if people want to come they will, people know we exist they just choose not to participate, it's not like we're unheard of. That is all for now, bring on the flamers!

[Wade Gillingham]

Who is trying to change the sport into a test of hand size?

Those who want axle DL because strongmen can relate to it

Those who want thickhandled farmers because strongmen can relate to it and it's thickbar so it has to test grip right?

Those who want the grip gauntlet to be a qualifer. Are you freakin kidding me! The whole thing is handsize dependent; blob, CCS a #3, and RT

Those who allow things like blob by the face to be in the medleys

Those who oppose handsize divisions but see no problem with the above lifts and many others that I just frankly don't have the time to type out

So what is a fair grip contest?

[jad]

Who is trying to change the sport into a test of hand size?

Those who want axle DL because strongmen can relate to it

Those who want thickhandled farmers because strongmen can relate to it and it's thickbar so it has to test grip right?

Those who want the grip gauntlet to be a qualifer. Are you freakin kidding me! The whole thing is handsize dependent; blob, CCS a #3, and RT

Those who allow things like blob by the face to be in the medleys

Those who oppose handsize divisions but see no problem with the above lifts and many others that I just frankly don't have the time to type out

So what is a fair grip contest?

Crush:MMS grippers

Pinch: 2HP

Horizontal support: 1HDL on an olympic barbell

Vertical support: 1" v bar: if you think vertical support grip exists and this isn't a science experiment in hand friction

Wrist: some sort of levering event; plenty of opinions on how this should be contested.

You put weight classes in there to account for the backstrength needed for the 1HDL and possibly the vbar and you'd be pretty close. Even without them, it would be hard to bitch about it.

[climber511]

I think we digress here - first we NEED an organization to start. All other issues are just so much talk without one.

[Matt Brouse]

The whole hand size thing is a null argument in my opinion. I'm not sure of another sport that limits the parameters of the sport to meet the genetic inferiority of the masses. If you aren't big and or fast or whatever; you don't play football (American) or at least you don't play college ball or pro.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Matt Brouse

[The Natural]

I don't know about you guys, but I have absolutely no desire to be like Powerlifting in nearly every way. One of the things that I love the most about this sport is the pure camaraderie of it which you simply don't see in Powerlifting, well at least not nearly as much or to the extent that grip has. I'm all for the growth of this sport but if it means sacrificing the friendship between all grip competitors (which, if you ask me, it definitely does) then I say to hell with it and let's keep it growing gradually as it has in the last few years.

Derek,

I think there's room for both types of competitions in grip, just as there is in powerlifting. For example, there's the IPF Worlds in powerlifting. Very competitive. Not much friendliness or camraderie, from what I've heard.

Then there's the powerlifting contests that Metroflex puts on. Not advertised nationally. Mainly just for the Metroflex community. Everyone brings their grills, cooks out in the parking lot, cheers for each other during lifts, etc. It's a festival as much as it is a competition.

Right now, it seems grip only has the second type of competition to offer. I want to see the first type of competition offered too.

-Rex

[The Natural]

The whole hand size thing is a null argument in my opinion. I'm not sure of another sport that limits the parameters of the sport to meet the genetic inferiority of the masses. If you aren't big and or fast or whatever; you don't play football (American) or at least you don't play college ball or pro.

I was watching some stone loading videos on YouTube not too long ago, and thought about this point. I don't hear the shorter strongmen in the sport making a fuss about the height of the platforms unfavorable to short folks. Derek Poundstone is only 6' 1". Same for Pudz (or is he less?). If a taller guy beats them in a loading event, their attitude seems to be "I just need to get stronger".

-Rex

[MalachiMcMullen]

Who is trying to change the sport into a test of hand size?

Those who want axle DL because strongmen can relate to it

Those who want thickhandled farmers because strongmen can relate to it and it's thickbar so it has to test grip right?

Those who want the grip gauntlet to be a qualifer. Are you freakin kidding me! The whole thing is handsize dependent; blob, CCS a #3, and RT

Those who allow things like blob by the face to be in the medleys

Those who oppose handsize divisions but see no problem with the above lifts and many others that I just frankly don't have the time to type out

This sounds a lot like a handsome young man I know

Seriously though, we had this argument months ago. There is no fun true grip test. A dyno, an adjustable thickbar that expands and contracts for every hand that touches it to make it even, etc, etc. I suggested the strongman events to make it more "visually appealing", simply to reply to Beatty's post on the matter. It's not about changing the sport to suit others, it's about making the sport look more interesting. Thinking about it now, that is a bit shallow and pointless because as Beatty pointed out, strongmen will be strongmen and powerlifters will be powerlifters, not grip guys. There is no point in drawing in people who have no interest in grip as it is.

I still like axle events though

[John Beatty]

I think we digress here - first we NEED an organization to start. All other issues are just so much talk without one.

True.

The whole hand size thing is a null argument in my opinion. I'm not sure of another sport that limits the parameters of the sport to meet the genetic inferiority of the masses. If you aren't big and or fast or whatever; you don't play football (American) or at least you don't play college ball or pro.

Actually, weight classes in PL, lights & heavies in Strongman. Weight classes in Oly, height classes in BB.

I don't know about you guys, but I have absolutely no desire to be like Powerlifting in nearly every way. One of the things that I love the most about this sport is the pure camaraderie of it which you simply don't see in Powerlifting, well at least not nearly as much or to the extent that grip has. I'm all for the growth of this sport but if it means sacrificing the friendship between all grip competitors (which, if you ask me, it definitely does) then I say to hell with it and let's keep it growing gradually as it has in the last few years.

Derek,

I think there's room for both types of competitions in grip, just as there is in powerlifting. For example, there's the IPF Worlds in powerlifting. Very competitive. Not much friendliness or camraderie, from what I've heard.

Then there's the powerlifting contests that Metroflex puts on. Not advertised nationally. Mainly just for the Metroflex community. Everyone brings their grills, cooks out in the parking lot, cheers for each other during lifts, etc. It's a festival as much as it is a competition.

Right now, it seems grip only has the second type of competition to offer. I want to see the first type of competition offered too.

-Rex

Agree completely, we need more people to do this, though.

The whole hand size thing is a null argument in my opinion. I'm not sure of another sport that limits the parameters of the sport to meet the genetic inferiority of the masses. If you aren't big and or fast or whatever; you don't play football (American) or at least you don't play college ball or pro.

I was watching some stone loading videos on YouTube not too long ago, and thought about this point. I don't hear the shorter strongmen in the sport making a fuss about the height of the platforms unfavorable to short folks. Derek Poundstone is only 6' 1". Same for Pudz (or is he less?). If a taller guy beats them in a loading event, their attitude seems to be "I just need to get stronger".

-Rex

Not 100% true, even at the high level, I heard guys were complaining about the super high WSM platforms (secondhand). Guys also complained when there was talk about banning tacky (it was banned one year, due to the dirt in the stone area). Guys also bitched about banning the continental off the belt. When I started Strongman, most platforms were 48". As the platforms started going up, there was a lot of bitching about the height, especially when the first platform hit 6' in some meets. I personally didn't complain, as I liked the variety of strongman, and doing something different at every meet, especially in the early days. But 6' is the top of my head, and the guys shorter than me had to throw the stone to the platform, and that's a little dangerous when you can't see if it landed right or might come rolling back at you. Guys complained enough that a light class came into being in Strongman, there was talk about how it would bring more guys into the sport, but I think that was maybe partially result of a lot of smaller guys complaining or dropping out against the bigger guys. I heard plenty of guys at meets saying it wasn't fair to go against the big guys.

[jad]

The whole hand size thing is a null argument in my opinion. I'm not sure of another sport that limits the parameters of the sport to meet the genetic inferiority of the masses. If you aren't big and or fast or whatever; you don't play football (American) or at least you don't play college ball or pro.

Hmmm... I'll file that one under the: can hook grip a 2" bar and never competes and mentally note the relevance. That aside, whether you think they're fair or not, they're poor measures of strength because of their nature and that's why they have no place in a grip contest. Does anyone really think Mark Felix can pull more on the RT than Chad because his hands are stronger? Chad and Ryan Klein are within a couple pounds of one another on the 1" vbar and you put them on the 2" and Chad blows him out. Big Tony smokes the axle at BBB and Beatty can't lock out it and then Big Tony can't hold the HH for even a 1/3 of Beatty's time. These are supposed to be events that measure hand strength?? They're a joke and unlike football or other sports, where the stage is set, grip isn't, and they're are plenty of viable choices to test the basic discplines of grip (crush, pinch, support, wrist).

[jad]

The whole hand size thing is a null argument in my opinion. I'm not sure of another sport that limits the parameters of the sport to meet the genetic inferiority of the masses. If you aren't big and or fast or whatever; you don't play football (American) or at least you don't play college ball or pro.

I was watching some stone loading videos on YouTube not too long ago, and thought about this point. I don't hear the shorter strongmen in the sport making a fuss about the height of the platforms unfavorable to short folks. Derek Poundstone is only 6' 1". Same for Pudz (or is he less?). If a taller guy beats them in a loading event, their attitude seems to be "I just need to get stronger".

-Rex

See Beatty's comments. Also I've yet to see untrained "tall" individuals roll up and load 400# stones unlike the huge handed guys that can pull the Inch, blob, and other handsize feats with little or no training . The two aren't comparable.