Boneless' Bodyweight Training

[patrickmeniru]

Hey, i've been following your log for a little while now, i'm trying to get stronger using primarily bodyweight exercises and am using planche and handstand progressions to strengthen up my shoulders in particular. I saw above that you gave some planche training advice, i've been reading around the gymnasticbodies forums and youtube, got lots of conflicting advice regarding how often to train. You said above that you recommend training every day - what kind of intensity should i train at if i want to do this? Just to give you an idea of where i'm at, i can hold a tuck planche for 2 sets of 30 secs with good form but i can barely hold an advanced tuck. In planche leans i can hold myself for about 10 seconds for a few sets with my hands at my waist. As far as handstands go, i can hold one with my back to the wall for ages (a couple of mins) but if i face the wall then i can only hold for about 15 seconds with good form, which tells me that when i face away from the wall i'm recruiting my chest more than i should be.

Sorry for the information deluge, basically what i'm asking is should i be doing a little and often, or more intense with rest days? Or a mix?

Anyhow, keep up the good work, any advice would be really appreciated

[Ivarboneless]

I feel that there's conflicting advice because different approaches work for different people. My entire planche progression is in this log. If you want to dig around earlier in the log you can see exactly what I did. I hit planches from every angle. I did tuck/advanced tuck etc variations, I did planche leans, lean pushups, assisted pushups, tuck planche pushups...everything that worked that angle. I feel like working it relatively low intensity (maybe two max holds every day or every other day) is the way to go. Work it often. I don't think that getting super sore and then resting four days is good for planche work because a lot of it is in the small stabilizer muscles.

Secondly, quit doing handstands on the wall. Learn them freestanding. It will help you on your planches. Get out there and experiment with what works. My particular weaknesses and strengths are probably different than yours and therefore the method that worked for me might be the 2nd best method for you and not the best. You might respond better to heavy training, but for me every day lighter intensity (couple sets of max holds) seems to work best although I don't think that's how I actually got my planche I think I did maybe every three days training hard....but in hindsight I think that grease the groove is better.

I've been training. School, training, girlfriend, bonfire all keep me busy so no time to post really. Don't think I've been slacking. Had a meet a while ago. 10th floor, 8th pommels, 9th rings, 10th all around. Decent meet.

Rockclimbing yesterday 2.5hrs. Climbed a V7 on my ~6th attempt. Pretty stoked. Cruised around on some V6s. The guys at the gym really want me to focus on climbing. They keep telling me I could be a pro climber if I "dedicated myself." This comment agitated me a bit. They almost made it sound like I'm some genetically gifted guy that's wasting his talent because he's lazy. I'm not sure if they realize that being on a collegiate gymnastics team and being a nationally ranked armwrestler is hard to do and takes up a lot of TIME.

They keep telling me that I need to train and it's kind of bothering me because I feel like they think I was born this way and I'm unwilling to put time and dedication into anything. I enjoy climbing and I'm decent at it, but it's not one of the main sports I'm pursuing.

That said, these guys are my friends and I'm not quite as agitated as my post may sound.....and I probably will climb more . I just think it's a bit ironic. Me....lazy....surely not.

[lifesnotfair]

Start climbing you lazy bum!

You should find some sort of sponsor who pays for all your expenses, including going out with your girlfriend ( :P ), and you could dedicate more time to climbing and AW, with no school, work, and why not, no gymnastics!

Edited March 26, 2012 by Arturo

[darthsith19]

Just saw a video of Rich DeNardo SLAMMING Klemba right handed in the 187 class at Maine States last weekend. It was a flash press. Just as fast as Ethan beat Yosef at 2010 National's. Faster than Bieganski beat u in MN (because you actually got a hit on Andrew). Just thought I'd share that with you. I was like

Edited March 27, 2012 by Josh H

[Ivarboneless]

What tournament was this? Did he also pull 54? I've seen him in the 76 a lot without also doing 54 (meaning to me that he's heavier). I don't know how some people do it (I'm thinking supplements etc) but some folks seem to be able to go up and down by a fair bit of weight and be diesel at a heavy weight but lose strength when they're lighter. He didn't look nearly that strong at nationals the year that Kris Mikels won.

I'm wondering if weight gain had anything to do with this. If he's that strong at 154 holy christ....I'll have to head up to spring run PA and hang out with Anthony....he busted DeNardo pretty good.

Seriously though, I have no idea how people go up and down like they do. I hold very steady in weight and the gains I have are ~5lbs per year when I'm allowing myself to get bigger. Seems like some people can gain 20lb in 6 months and be RAW at the higher weight.

Yeah I do need a sponsor. I'd be a much better athlete.

March 26, 2012

Went CLIMBING at the gym for an hour. Worked hard things for 30 mins. Sent a long V6 that was giving me fits. Spent the next 30 mins doing ladders. Start with V0 and then go to V1 after a 4 min rest etc. You can only go up or down one grade at a time, so you have to guage your pump. Fall off and the 4 mins is spent doing a wall sit. I laddered up to V4 and hung out around there going plus and minus until the end. Then I laddered back down with 1 min rests or so. Session was a bit longer than an hour to ladder back down. V0-V2 were all down climbed as well.

2 hours of gymnastics

Armwrestling:

4X25 side pressure exercise 15lb

2X25 reverse armwrestling 15lb

Looking pretty lean I'm curious what my weight is. My scale is out of batteries. Feeling strong. I'm starting to stoke myself up for contraband days. I want to get out there and see how much salt the Bishop boys have. I'm not definitely going just yet, but I'm starting to think about it daily...which probably means I'm going to end up making it happen. I mean I made plans to drive to MN from TX after watching an ArmTV video....I'll probably show up in LA....most likely double classing 54 and 76.

[patrickmeniru]

I feel that there's conflicting advice because different approaches work for different people. My entire planche progression is in this log. If you want to dig around earlier in the log you can see exactly what I did. I hit planches from every angle. I did tuck/advanced tuck etc variations, I did planche leans, lean pushups, assisted pushups, tuck planche pushups...everything that worked that angle. I feel like working it relatively low intensity (maybe two max holds every day or every other day) is the way to go. Work it often. I don't think that getting super sore and then resting four days is good for planche work because a lot of it is in the small stabilizer muscles.

Secondly, quit doing handstands on the wall. Learn them freestanding. It will help you on your planches. Get out there and experiment with what works. My particular weaknesses and strengths are probably different than yours and therefore the method that worked for me might be the 2nd best method for you and not the best. You might respond better to heavy training, but for me every day lighter intensity (couple sets of max holds) seems to work best although I don't think that's how I actually got my planche I think I did maybe every three days training hard....but in hindsight I think that grease the groove is better.

Thanks very much for the advice! I have looked at your progression for tips, the reason i asked the questions was that day 1 of this log is at a far more advanced stage than i'm at at the moment. I'm working on freestanding handstands, but i can work harder i guess, i'll replace handstands on the wall with freestanding work (i'll keep re-setting until i hit a total time goal), i'm guessing that it's still okay to be doing cast wall walks though, i find that they are good cardio as well as shoulder/back exercises.

Best of luck with your training, hopefully next time i post here i'll be able to report that your help has enabled me to nail some more progressions!

[darthsith19]

What tournament was this? Did he also pull 54? I've seen him in the 76 a lot without also doing 54 (meaning to me that he's heavier). I don't know how some people do it (I'm thinking supplements etc) but some folks seem to be able to go up and down by a fair bit of weight and be diesel at a heavy weight but lose strength when they're lighter. He didn't look nearly that strong at nationals the year that Kris Mikels won.

I'm wondering if weight gain had anything to do with this. If he's that strong at 154 holy christ....I'll have to head up to spring run PA and hang out with Anthony....he busted DeNardo pretty good.

Seriously though, I have no idea how people go up and down like they do. I hold very steady in weight and the gains I have are ~5lbs per year when I'm allowing myself to get bigger. Seems like some people can gain 20lb in 6 months and be RAW at the higher weight.

Maine States - DeNardo did not pull 54, but his teammate (Derrick Mattera) told me DeNardo can make 54 easy, and was about 160 there... it was also the 155-187 lbs. class so Klemba was a few lbs. heavier as well. DeNardo also gave Eric Guevin a match in the overalls.

Kris beat DeNardo left, but I don't think anyone slowed DeNardo down more than a second right handed at that National's (that was last year).

I hear ya man, I feel just as strong at 54 as I do when I'm heavier (given that I have adequite time to refuel after making 54). But some guys seem quite a bit stronger when heavier (Corey's hook looks stronger when heavier).

Sam Harris also beat Steve Shoemaker at PA Winter Blast last weekend right handed at 176, Sam was 154 as well and won both classes, 2nd in 54 was Mike Surplus. Just keeping ya informed, not sure if you saw the results or not, if you don't want me hijacking your training blog just say so!

[Ivarboneless]

I definitely appreciate the updates. As I've said, I used to stay very current on the shapes of everyone but not so much anymore. DeNardo sounds beastly right now. I'll keep my eye on Sam Harris.

Just got back from the state gymnastics championships:

Felt TERRIBLE during warmups. I didn't get very much sleep the two days prior due to exams. I felt weak and tired during warmups, but I have a competition gear that I shifted into for the meet.

I placed 8th on floor, 9th overall (all around) and the big news:

State silver medalist on rings. The way my set went I was hoping to be state champion, but oh well I guess I'll live with silver.

Nationals in three weeks. I'm going to put in 100% effort for that....my last meet ever....ie I'm retiring from gymnastics after this meet. Then I will focus on armwrestling full time....and we'll see where the 54s in the USA stack up after two years of me not doing gymnastics.

[lifesnotfair]

Is this you? Beard and all?

[darthsith19]

Congrats on the gymnastics meet... and I'm excited to hear that you're switching to full-time armwrestling in 3 weeks!!!!!!

[Ivarboneless]

Yeah, that's me. I actually trimmed a good 1" off the beard for the meet.

Training hard. Gymnastics only right now. Yeah, I'm pretty excited to switch to armwrestling. I feel like that is a sport I can actually succeed at. I don't like being average and I'm an average gymnast at best. I just wasn't built for that sport because god knows I worked hard as hell for it and only came up with mild success.

Josh, check your PM's I hear that Mr. Justin Bishop is looking for a match....I'm down.

[lifesnotfair]

That sport is HARD. I guess just until a couple of years ago I never realized how hard it is.

I mean, of all the other sports I have ever watched, at non-pro levels people (and youngsters) still play good. I mean, the game looks good. Like younger tennis players or college basketball/football/soccer/baseball/etc.... sure they wont play exactly like the Pros but they still play similarly, I'm having a hard time trying to say what I mean.... they can't hit as hard or go as fast as the Pros but the skills are similar and the gameplay is very similar. But in gymanstics.... man, whenever i see college gymnastics videos it really looks like a bunch of noobs swinging oddly in the implements! By this I mean no offense Ivar I hope this didn't came out wrong. I just mean that at college level it would seem that gymnasts are light years behind what the guys in the world championships do? Am I wrong in thinking this way? Would like to hear your thoughts!

[AlexisOlson]

Yep. Gymnastics is indeed very difficult. It's not like basketball or soccer where you can grab a few buddies and play a pick up game. It takes years of training just to be able to do the basics. In addition, men's gymnastics has six different events (floor, pommel horse, rings, vault, parallel bars, and high bar). Unlike tennis where you have to learn a few movements really well, gymnasts have to master hundreds.

There are a few NCAA gymnasts who are/were world class (guys like Jonathan Horton, Steve Legendre, David Sender, etc.), but in college club gymnastics even the very best aren't going competitive at an international level (or else they probably would have joined an NCAA program). Some of the club gymnasts have only been doing gymnastics for a year or two and really are n00bs. Others have been training over a decade and are quite good, just not at the nearly superhuman level of world champion gymnasts. The latter are mind-bogglingly amazing. Do not be fooled by how effortless they make it look.

[lifesnotfair]

Unretired gymnast, I guess you get my point. But I will try to clarify a bit more in case it was confusing:

I wasn't talking about telling your buddies to play basketball or tennis, this can of course be done recreationally at avery low level. What I meant was this:

You take a guy whose been seriously playing tennis for years, and he wont be completely anihilated by the Pros. Well, actually, he will, but the score is not gonna be 6-0, 6-0, 6-0 at a Grand Slam tournament, for example, as evidenced by the lack of such score even in the first rounds of the Grand Slams where the Pros sometimes face completely unknown people. They might win like 6-1, 6-2, 6-2 or something. But in Gymnastics, if the scoring was the same as tennis, it seems the college gymnasts would lose 6-0, 6-0, 6-0 every time against a world class competitor, hardly even winning a point during the games.

To use another sport as example: I'm sure a college basketball team would lose against an NBA team, no doubt. But what would the score be? Perhaps it's indeed a very bad beating and it ends something like 130 to 50. But if college gymnasts would compete against world gymnasts with basketball scoring... it would be like 192-4 in basketball points, know what I mean?

It just seems they're so far away. Even the best guy in Ivar's college (I think Eli?) seems like a newbie after one watches the European championship or World championships. I have been trying to learn/identify the different Ring Skills and their difficulty (A,B,C.... F, etc) and in these college competitions you hardly see the same moves you see at Worlds/Europeans/Olympics.

It almost looks like a different sport since the moves performed aren't even the same! I guess that about sums it up. This is just a pointless rambling though, an observation.

[AlexisOlson]

Not quite. A college club gymnast would never win an event or all around title at an international level competition, but if he hit his routine well he could certainly beat a much better gymnast who had a fall or some serious errors in his routine. The best college club routines would score in the 13's and 14's (and even in the 15's on vault) whereas world class gymnasts score in the 14's, 15's, and 16's. Eli could probably score about 80 all around at an international competition (in fact if you look at the results from the Houston National Invitational, he scored 79.95 even with a bad high bar set). Only the top few in the world can score over 90, but that ten point difference is huge as far as the amount of extra difficultly involved. For example, upgrading from a C valued skill to a really difficult F valued skill only increases the start value by 0.3. It's a bit like running 100m in 9.7 seconds versus 10.7 seconds; one second difference may not sound like much, but it's the difference between Usain Bolt and a decent high school sprinter.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Unretired Gymnast

[lifesnotfair]

Well, I guess point-wise the difference is not as drastic as I thought. But VISUALLY, it looks like a different sport and that was my original thought.

You see, in other sports it still looks the same. I'm sure in college baseball they still hit home runs, they steal bases, they do diving catches, great throws from the outfields to home, and pitchers can go over 90+MPH. They'd lose to an MLB team but they do almost the same.

But it seems to me that, for example, on the rings.... nobody is doing the hard skills that I see at the olympics/worlds/europeans. So visually it looks so very much inferior, even if score-wise it's only, say, 10-20% behind.

[Ivarboneless]

I don't take it as disrespect. A couple points though: A) I'm on a club team with no coach, no funding, no foam pit etc. I haven't had a coach since the start of this log. Comparing a club team to an NCAA college team is like comparing a AA football school in Texas to a 5A football team in Texas. B) NCAA gymnasts can be quite good as unretired gymnast mentioned. Sometimes our Olympians and National Team members come off of NCAA teams.

The second thing is that gymnastics is clearly the hardest sport in the world and I feel like no argument can be made against that. Speed, Flexibility, Strength, Power, Courage, Skill.....gymnastics need EXTREMELY HIGH LEVELS of all of those. The only two things that gymnastics falls short on: aerobic endurance, and man to man competition. As such a difficult sport experts in the craft can experience a larger gap in skill levels. Body type also plays an immense role in gymnastics. A 6'4" man and a 5'10" man can both be exceptional at tennis and baseball, but a 5'4" man and a 6'0" man do not have similar potential in gymnastics.

I do agree with you. Visually it is quite different. I also feel like gymnastics is at a higher level than other sports. If you look at gymnastics from the 50's and look at gymnastics now, you can see the progression in difficulty. If you look at baseball from those times....you don't see that extreme increase in skill. Other sports are also much more simple. I can catch a pop fly in the outfield, but none of those baseball guys can do a double flyaway (very basic) off highbar.

Another thing is even the guys that look like newbs are light years ahead of the man off the street. You take an average guy and train him 40hrs a week for two years at baseball he'll probably become pretty good. The same guy would still be doing basic skills after two years in gymnastics. The way gymnastics works is similar to armwrestling. I get crushed and look like a newb by the top 10 at the world championships, but I'll put up $1000 that you can't find an untrained 160lb man that can beat me at armwrestling. It would be extremely hard to find a 200lb man to beat me....and it would be tough to find a 240lb guy to beat me. So clearly I'm far above the average man....but still a newb because the world level athletes are of a cosmic level.

Gymnastics today: did rings strength

ALSO JOSH HANDELAND CHECK PMS I'm not sure if you missed that since all the gymnastics posts have been flooding the log!

[lifesnotfair]

Thanks for the detailed reply Ivar, you make a LOT of sense. And I guess we can all agree it's so very hard. You are absolutely right in that in most other sports, a guy training 40hrs a week for 2 years will at least "move" almost like the pros, it will at least look similar... but you and your teammates for example, like I said, I mean no disrespect at all but you guys look light years behind the pros! Of course, at the same time, you are lightyears AHEAD of regular guys off the street or even gym-rats. Don't get me wrong, you have my utmost respect for doing what you do.... I find ring dips hard . Man that's a tough sport.

Sorry to flood your log. But hey, you're still a gymnast for a very short while aint you!?

[Ivarboneless]

Mock meet today.

Hit pommels. Good form. No falls, stuck dismount.

Hit rings, good form, strong, stuck dismount

Threw my twisting vault and 2nd vault. Didn't go perfectly, but they'll be there at nationals

P bars- need work. Went for it though. Caught some front toss swing handstands

I'm scratching the pipe because my team doesn't need me and my hands need rest from all the underbar work I've been doing on P-bars. I hate highbar anyway, I just love the dismount. I got kicked off floor (despite being 8th at state ) to let someone else compete floor. Since I'm not doing AA I decided to scratch bar as well.

Basically I did work today. I'll be ready next Friday. I'm lean and strong right now.

Josh Handeland check your PM's

[darthsith19]

Sorry, haven't been on here in a few day, will check now!!!

[Ivarboneless]

Worked rings yesterday. Two full sets then rings strength. Worked P bars today. Been having trouble with my front toss swing handstand.....and my under arms are pretty bruised up because of it. Today it started rough, but I ended up hitting about 7 in a row. My P bars score won't count towards the team score at nationals (god willing) so I'm tempted to put it back in my set. I'm not sure. My last meet ever....front toss has been sketch lately but decent today....what to do?

I guess I'll feel it out at nationals. I'm not keen on breaking my hand and ruining my chances on rings though.

Last day of practice before the meet. I'll check back in next week. Off to nationals tomorrow. Hopefully I can place top ten on rings and 1st place team with A&M. I'll retire happy if I can accomplish those two things.

[patrickmeniru]

Best of luck. You've worked hard enough to deserve it!

[Ivarboneless]

At nationals: 60 universities. 700 total athletes.

Results:

I qualified for event finals on rings (top 15 make event finals)

Texas A&M qualified for team finals

On Finals Day I took a tiny hop on my landing and missed placing top ten (my goal) by .1 of a point. Failure

My score was the second highest for A&M on rings and counted towards our team total. We won the tournament by about 5pts ahead of Penn State. National champions as a team.

I was not too happy to conclude my gymnastics career failing to achieve my goal by .1. Very upset about that. Anyways I am retired from gymnastics now and I am focusing on armwrestling full time.

Yesterday:

I did a set of 15 handstand pushups (which many of you know ties my personal best) and two sets of 14.

I was also closing my hard #3 with ease. Usually I have to get very amped up to do this, but I was just squishing it shut like I usually do a BBSM

That concludes this chapter of my life. My training experiences from 2006 (16yrs old) through 2012 (22yrs old) are included in this log along with many personal experiences. I feel like it is time for me to step away and let this part of my life fade into memory. Since I will now be training with weights it is rather inappropriate for me to update this log anymore.

Thank you to all who've helped me along the way. Many of you have donated equipment, advice or humor to help me along the way...I appreciate it very much.

[patrickmeniru]

Sorry to hear that you missed out on your goal. The only thing i would say is that at least you know that your routine had the potential to be top 10, it might make it feel worse now, but in a couple of years i'm sure you'll look back and be proud of the level of strength and balance/skill that you have achieved over the last few years.

I wish you the best of luck with your AW career, looks like you're shaping up to be a pretty formidable puller. Will you be keeping a new log at all?

[lifesnotfair]

It's been a pleasure following it