lifesnotfair Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Mikael: did my little post make you reply four straight times after it? Wow. 1. I wasn't suggesting events be dropped. I'm all in favor of handsize classes precisely so that the same events can be used. Even axle and RT and Blob+weight. But then the smaller handed guy competes against.... the other smaller handed guys!!! 2. I stand by what I said about Martin. He is arguably one of the best, if not the best in the world at 2HP if he, as you just said, routinely pulls 115kg in practise whithout even training the lift. But lets say he's top 5 in the world to show respect to the record holders. Why is he not even competitive at blob+weight lifted? Why is he NOT EVEN CLOSE at axle deadlift to people with large hands who he could absolutely DEMOLISH on Grippers and Two Hands Pinch. Are you truly going to reply saying it's because he hasn't trained thickbar enough? Or are you gonna say he's just not strong enough Overall? One more thing: I seem to remember Rex, not much later after he started posting on this board, showed a video where he just pinched two blobs and took off running with them for quite a distance! I don't know how heavy he was back then. But are you truly convinced that the only reason he could do this, is because of his already very good overall strength? Or his 9" hands? In fact, another question: if he dieted down to a lean 215# of bodyweight (he's tall so I wont use a ridiculously low number), would he suck at blobs instantly? Because I imagine you don't need much overall strength to walk with 50# per hand, ya know. With weight classes, a lightweight with huge hands will smoke the competition. And a heavy guy with small hands (think Martin) is gonna get smoked at several events. It makes more sense to divide by handsize, even if it means you end up with ten 170# competitors and two 340# competitors in the same class. And in this scenario, if a competitor feels that he's losing because of lack of overall strength... he can always gain some mass if he wants! While if we use weight divisions, if a competitor feels he's losing because of his small hands, he can..... well, he can't do sh*t about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Mac, If he dropped down to 82.5k I would beat him again. I can't get to his weight no matter how much I try. Some people are natural heavyweights whereas others are natural lightweights. They will beat each other if they try to force their bodyweights into the other guys weight range. A large hand gives you some advantages in most events but not nearly as much as overall mass. We see this in MM rankings and the top 20 2HP. That you guys continue to ignore these facts, not theories but fact, is beyond me. Look at those lists and then look at them again. Repeat until you get it. Mac, I have competed against Martin when we weighed the same (well he was a bit heavier than me but much smaller than he is today); I won. No, that's right, so I wonder if there is any comparison between the two on Pinch, whether it be by hand size, bodyweight, age or anything else. Martin is just much better on Pinch. So what you are saying then is that if Martin beats you now he it is only because he is heavier? Not because he has taken some time to work and improve with the events? I know you say that he doesn't train grip "seriously" - and that is true - but he doesn't appear to just turn up and compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Arturo, #1 - RT is a terribly flawed implement for grip competitions where you want to keep track of records as they vary all over the place. Speaking of axle lift you seem to know exactly how much Martin pulls. Would you mind sharing that info because I have no idea. #2 - He is good with blobs, deadlifts them with ease but, as you said, would fall short against people with large hands. For these super-wide pinch events and thickbar events hand size divisions make sense - no one is disputing that. If Rex somehow managed to get all the way down to 82.5k his 9'' hands may not be enough to give him the victory against natural lightweights like ....me. The lightweight class will be, more than anything, dominated by lean people with a light bone structure, maximising muscle mass where it is needed. Large hands will help a bit but large hands often comes with a heavy bone structure which will work against you. Mikael: did my little post make you reply four straight times after it? Wow. 1. I wasn't suggesting events be dropped. I'm all in favor of handsize classes precisely so that the same events can be used. Even axle and RT and Blob+weight. But then the smaller handed guy competes against.... the other smaller handed guys!!! 2. I stand by what I said about Martin. He is arguably one of the best, if not the best in the world at 2HP if he, as you just said, routinely pulls 115kg in practise whithout even training the lift. But lets say he's top 5 in the world to show respect to the record holders. Why is he not even competitive at blob+weight lifted? Why is he NOT EVEN CLOSE at axle deadlift to people with large hands who he could absolutely DEMOLISH on Grippers and Two Hands Pinch. Are you truly going to reply saying it's because he hasn't trained thickbar enough? Or are you gonna say he's just not strong enough Overall? One more thing: I seem to remember Rex, not much later after he started posting on this board, showed a video where he just pinched two blobs and took off running with them for quite a distance! I don't know how heavy he was back then. But are you truly convinced that the only reason he could do this, is because of his already very good overall strength? Or his 9" hands? In fact, another question: if he dieted down to a lean 215# of bodyweight (he's tall so I wont use a ridiculously low number), would he suck at blobs instantly? Because I imagine you don't need much overall strength to walk with 50# per hand, ya know. With weight classes, a lightweight with huge hands will smoke the competition. And a heavy guy with small hands (think Martin) is gonna get smoked at several events. It makes more sense to divide by handsize, even if it means you end up with ten 170# competitors and two 340# competitors in the same class. And in this scenario, if a competitor feels that he's losing because of lack of overall strength... he can always gain some mass if he wants! While if we use weight divisions, if a competitor feels he's losing because of his small hands, he can..... well, he can't do sh*t about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Let's all get together and have a catch weight match at 95kg. The grip contest is only to determine the order in which you enter the ring for the royal rumble. Winner of the grip contest enters last, loser first, etc. Whoever wins the rumble wins the contest. So grip will help, but you need to also be able to beat the snot out of everyone else and still have enough left to send them flying over the top rope. Now that sounds like fun. We can settle the weight vs hand size debate and have a blast beating the poop out of each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I have slim but relatively long hands at 8''. In the most hand-size neutral events such as the one hand pinch I will get 'smoked' by no-one in that class - huge hands won't help you as I am lean and have a light bone structure and can thus put a lot of muscle strength into that lift. Look at DH's WSH series and you will realise that it is not difficult eliminating hand size as a factor in grip competitions. His comps are the complete opposite to a comp like 'Mighty Mitts'. With weight classes, a lightweight with huge hands will smoke the competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel reinard Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Let's all get together and have a catch weight match at 95kg. The grip contest is only to determine the order in which you enter the ring for the royal rumble. Winner of the grip contest enters last, loser first, etc. Whoever wins the rumble wins the contest. So grip will help, but you need to also be able to beat the snot out of everyone else and still have enough left to send them flying over the top rope. Now that sounds like fun. We can settle the weight vs hand size debate and have a blast beating the poop out of each other. Naw, that wouldn't work. There needs to be a class division based on bicep size. I'd like to see someone drop down to my pythons and hit the cage. I'd still end up someones Twizzler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubgeezer Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Let's all get together and have a catch weight match at 95kg. The grip contest is only to determine the order in which you enter the ring for the royal rumble. Winner of the grip contest enters last, loser first, etc. Whoever wins the rumble wins the contest. So grip will help, but you need to also be able to beat the snot out of everyone else and still have enough left to send them flying over the top rope. Now that sounds like fun. We can settle the weight vs hand size debate and have a blast beating the poop out of each other. Transcript of conversation between Hubgeezer and Son of Hubgeezer, 1999: Hubgeezer: Son, I can't wait until you turn 21. (Son of Hubgeezer was 17 at the time) Son of Hubgeezer: Why is that, Dad? Hubgeezer: Because I suspect you will be a pretty good hustler, and the two of us could tag team and win some bar-room bets concerning what I can and cannot do to a strong gripper. (Hubgeezer was just starting to get near closing the Number 2, did not lift weights, and looked like a middle-aged accountant. Son of Hubgeezer had a natural gift of gab) Son of Hubgeezer: Dad, if you are going to keep your ass from getting kicked, you are going to have to work out a lot more than your hands. Truer words were never spoken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Let's all get together and have a catch weight match at 95kg. The grip contest is only to determine the order in which you enter the ring for the royal rumble. Winner of the grip contest enters last, loser first, etc. Whoever wins the rumble wins the contest. So grip will help, but you need to also be able to beat the snot out of everyone else and still have enough left to send them flying over the top rope. Now that sounds like fun. We can settle the weight vs hand size debate and have a blast beating the poop out of each other. Transcript of conversation between Hubgeezer and Son of Hubgeezer, 1999: Hubgeezer: Son, I can't wait until you turn 21. (Son of Hubgeezer was 17 at the time) Son of Hubgeezer: Why is that, Dad? Hubgeezer: Because I suspect you will be a pretty good hustler, and the two of us could tag team and win some bar-room bets concerning what I can and cannot do to a strong gripper. (Hubgeezer was just starting to get near closing the Number 2, did not lift weights, and looked like a middle-aged accountant. Son of Hubgeezer had a natural gift of gab) Son of Hubgeezer: Dad, if you are going to keep your ass from getting kicked, you are going to have to work out a lot more than your hands. Truer words were never spoken. Or learn to run real fast Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 (edited) That would be right in David Horne and Nick McKinless territory. Without the help of super-wide pinches etc. we don't even need to have that match as the outcome is obvious. They would destroy the opposition. Let's all get together and have a catch weight match at 95kg. The grip contest is only to determine the order in which you enter the ring for the royal rumble. Winner of the grip contest enters last, loser first, etc. Whoever wins the rumble wins the contest. So grip will help, but you need to also be able to beat the snot out of everyone else and still have enough left to send them flying over the top rope. Now that sounds like fun. We can settle the weight vs hand size debate and have a blast beating the poop out of each other. Edited July 1, 2011 by Mikael Siversson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Let's all get together and have a catch weight match at 95kg. The grip contest is only to determine the order in which you enter the ring for the royal rumble. Winner of the grip contest enters last, loser first, etc. Whoever wins the rumble wins the contest. So grip will help, but you need to also be able to beat the snot out of everyone else and still have enough left to send them flying over the top rope. Now that sounds like fun. We can settle the weight vs hand size debate and have a blast beating the poop out of each other. Now you're speakin' my language. Growing up in a small town, it always comes down to that vital question "..but who'd win in a barfight?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 At 95k I would put my money on Nick McKinless or Lee (in Perth). Strong grip and good fighters. Let's all get together and have a catch weight match at 95kg. The grip contest is only to determine the order in which you enter the ring for the royal rumble. Winner of the grip contest enters last, loser first, etc. Whoever wins the rumble wins the contest. So grip will help, but you need to also be able to beat the snot out of everyone else and still have enough left to send them flying over the top rope. Now that sounds like fun. We can settle the weight vs hand size debate and have a blast beating the poop out of each other. Now you're speakin' my language. Growing up in a small town, it always comes down to that vital question "..but who'd win in a barfight?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Not sure if I could still get down to 95kg and I'm starting to get a bit long in the tooth, but I like my chances at doing a little damage... Win or lose, it would be one heck of a good time. Josh, sounds like you and I grew up in the same kind of town buddy. I've been toying with the idea of trying to cut to 208 for Gripmas. Maybe I can be the test dummy in all this. 47 lbs is a lot to ask of a guy who likes his McDonald's though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 Not sure if I could still get down to 95kg and I'm starting to get a bit long in the tooth, but I like my chances at doing a little damage... Win or lose, it would be one heck of a good time. Josh, sounds like you and I grew up in the same kind of town buddy. I've been toying with the idea of trying to cut to 208 for Gripmas. Maybe I can be the test dummy in all this. 47 lbs is a lot to ask of a guy who likes his McDonald's though. 47# in 5 months - possible but that's going to be a tough one. It would be fun to go head to head with you though. Me, you, Josh Dale, Lipnski, Sundin, Stew Rosendaul and a few others would make for an epic light weight class! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IROC-Z Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I've been toying with the idea of trying to cut to 208 for Gripmas. Maybe I can be the test dummy in all this. 47 lbs is a lot to ask of a guy who likes his McDonald's though. I've been considering this myself. 223 on the scale this morning. I know I'm capable of cutting another 15, just don't know what it'll do to strength levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 I've been toying with the idea of trying to cut to 208 for Gripmas. Maybe I can be the test dummy in all this. 47 lbs is a lot to ask of a guy who likes his McDonald's though. I've been considering this myself. 223 on the scale this morning. I know I'm capable of cutting another 15, just don't know what it'll do to strength levels. Only one way to find out what it will do to your strength - what it should do is increase your fitness level and probably your overall health numbers as well. Bodyweight is something you should plan out as a long term number in line with your goals for strength, sport, and especially your health. Believe me - you're going to have to adjust for additional body fat as you age - it's easier to do it while you have the hormone levels to make it happen easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 At 95k I would put my money on Nick McKinless or Lee (in Perth). Strong grip and good fighters. Let's all get together and have a catch weight match at 95kg. The grip contest is only to determine the order in which you enter the ring for the royal rumble. Winner of the grip contest enters last, loser first, etc. Whoever wins the rumble wins the contest. So grip will help, but you need to also be able to beat the snot out of everyone else and still have enough left to send them flying over the top rope. Now that sounds like fun. We can settle the weight vs hand size debate and have a blast beating the poop out of each other. Now you're speakin' my language. Growing up in a small town, it always comes down to that vital question "..but who'd win in a barfight?" At 95kg, Paul Knight would be in the running for the Grip Combat Crown as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 It is hard for me to track grip compared to bodyweight. It has typically been better as I have been lighter, but then again I usually focus more on grip when I am lighter. I have weighed 204-245 since starting grip training. This is my personal theory, but I think the big guys get the best benefit because of how much weight they can use in pulling movements. For example, a one arm axle deadlift will be alot harder if that is a difficult weight for you to lift period. If it is a weight you could do for many reps in a bentover row, you will handle the weight easier overall. Hope that makes sense. Whew Chris, you are right, that would make a nice lightweight division! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifesnotfair Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Mikael: thanks a lot for your response! May I ask you then what events would be optimal in a contest, in your opinion? Because the Axle and RT seem to be very popular nowdays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 A crush event, a pinch event (adjustable width), a wrist event and a vertical or horizontal support event. In July 2012 IM's Apollon's axle DO deadlift will be one of the events in a comp I will organise. Not entierly fair for people with smallish hands but fun. I have no problems including a thickbar event (up to 2'') but all competitors should understand and recognise that this will favour folks with large hands. The introduction of the 82.5k class is, more than anything, a way of determining who has the strongest pound-for-pound grip. The heavyweight category is for determining who has the strongest grip period. More than anything, people entering grip competition seem to desire to do well in the Europinch and for a good reason as it is hand-size neutral so to speak. No excuses for not doing well. Weight divisions work perfectly for width adjustable pinch set ups. Mikael: thanks a lot for your response! May I ask you then what events would be optimal in a contest, in your opinion? Because the Axle and RT seem to be very popular nowdays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Mac, If he dropped down to 82.5k I would beat him again. I can't get to his weight no matter how much I try. Some people are natural heavyweights whereas others are natural lightweights. They will beat each other if they try to force their bodyweights into the other guys weight range. A large hand gives you some advantages in most events but not nearly as much as overall mass. We see this in MM rankings and the top 20 2HP. That you guys continue to ignore these facts, not theories but fact, is beyond me. Look at those lists and then look at them again. Repeat until you get it. Mac, I have competed against Martin when we weighed the same (well he was a bit heavier than me but much smaller than he is today); I won. No, that's right, so I wonder if there is any comparison between the two on Pinch, whether it be by hand size, bodyweight, age or anything else. Martin is just much better on Pinch. So what you are saying then is that if Martin beats you now he it is only because he is heavier? Not because he has taken some time to work and improve with the events? I know you say that he doesn't train grip "seriously" - and that is true - but he doesn't appear to just turn up and compete. No, I get what you're saying, I just don't agree. I don't believe that, for example, Oscar De La Hoya should have made millions from boxing because he wouldn't have been able to defeat a good heavyweight. Divisions based on any principle just give people who aren't as good a chance to win. Going back to the point of this thread I don't think divisions will make any difference to the popularity of the sport long term - now, make the sport a bit more interesting to watch and then you might increase the numbers who want to compete... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Mac, If he dropped down to 82.5k I would beat him again. I can't get to his weight no matter how much I try. Some people are natural heavyweights whereas others are natural lightweights. They will beat each other if they try to force their bodyweights into the other guys weight range. A large hand gives you some advantages in most events but not nearly as much as overall mass. We see this in MM rankings and the top 20 2HP. That you guys continue to ignore these facts, not theories but fact, is beyond me. Look at those lists and then look at them again. Repeat until you get it. Mac, I have competed against Martin when we weighed the same (well he was a bit heavier than me but much smaller than he is today); I won. No, that's right, so I wonder if there is any comparison between the two on Pinch, whether it be by hand size, bodyweight, age or anything else. Martin is just much better on Pinch. So what you are saying then is that if Martin beats you now he it is only because he is heavier? Not because he has taken some time to work and improve with the events? I know you say that he doesn't train grip "seriously" - and that is true - but he doesn't appear to just turn up and compete. No, I get what you're saying, I just don't agree. I don't believe that, for example, Oscar De La Hoya should have made millions from boxing because he wouldn't have been able to defeat a good heavyweight. Divisions based on any principle just give people who aren't as good a chance to win. Going back to the point of this thread I don't think divisions will make any difference to the popularity of the sport long term - now, make the sport a bit more interesting to watch and then you might increase the numbers who want to compete... LOL So someone as talented as Floyd Mayweather or Manny shouldn't be a millionaire because an average pro HW would/could destroy them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Yes. It would certainly make the sport (any sport) more exciting if it only had one champion - the best person in the world. As I said above, I understand weight classes in combat sports due to safety concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 The big heavyweights did not always win the Pride anyweight tourneys or the early UFC tourneys. And weight plays a bigger roll in MMA than it does in boxing. I always liked fighting the bigger guys and always had trouble with the little lightning fast water bugs. And I was around 200 when I did most of my rolling around on bar room floors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 No, the big heavyweight doesn't always win, in the ring / cage / street - but you do at least get to find out who is the best (OK, luck applies too, but since we're talking Grip and the Boxing is only an analogy I think it holds). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifesnotfair Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 A crush event, a pinch event (adjustable width), a wrist event and a vertical or horizontal support event. What are, in your opinion, good horizontal support events? I have always been a fan of the regular one hand deadlift (no hook grip) on a standard barbell. Maybe handsize is less of a factor in this lift? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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