Hand Size

[Mike Rinderle]

And just for general information - if I had gotten into all this stuff 30 years ago - I would have been in the "do whatever it takes" group and kicked a little heiney on you boys.

You've kicked plenty as is buddy! :mosher

[jad]

It is not that complicated as long as you have calibrated weights at hand (which you need for records anyway). Make sure you have a decent electronic scale and place 82.5k of calibrated weights on it. Record the nominal value and use that as a guide. It the scale indicates 83.2k then that is the nominal weight limit on that particular scale.

I think the whole point with the 82.5k class is to keep track of records, national and world records and to generate more interest in grip sport.

Any competitor in grip competitions with hand size divisions or any other weight classes would be eligible for WR's in the 82.5k class as long as their weight was recorded by the organiser on the day of competition using a calibrated scale.

Not to open a whole new can of worms but could explain a calibrated scale? Ross Love and Richard Sorin are the only two American Grip organizers that I'm aware of that have this. The calibrated scales used by all the others belonged to the Post Office (or that was my understanding?). I see a calibrated scale as a HUGE barrier for this class to take off.

Got it, I see it's a more common sense approach than the weights. I'll pm you with a follow up question to avoid hi-jacking the thread further.

[climber511]

Mikeal has offered a practical solution earlier I think. All contests now have certified plates and we will only have one target weight to be concerned with at present. So using a good digital scale - loading on plates equal to the weight class and then using a simple below or above that number should be good I think. I do have access to our HS calibrated wrestling scale if necessary as well.

Edited June 27, 2011 by climber511

[Mikael Siversson]

If the 82.5k class turns out to be highly competitive as I suspect it will be with people chasing records we might consider adding a couple of more classes, again using the classic PL weight classes, perhaps 67.5k and 100k. We don't want to water down records by introducing too many of them but having four is probably quite reasonable. Having weight classes does actually, to some degree, promote good health. Everyone can compete in an open class but records being recorded for the various weight categories.

[jad]

Mikeal has offered a practical solution earlier I think. All contests now have certified plates and we will only have one target weight to be concerned with at present. So using a good digital scale - loading on plates equal to the weight class and then using a simple below or above that number should be good I think. I do have access to our HS calibrated wrestling scale if necessary as well.

Actually Chris, not all contests do have certified plates (no, Strossen has not hacked my account), weighed plates, yes, but not certified. I've pm'd Mikael for clarification and I'm sure he'll chime in or I will when I get his response.

[Bob Lipinski]

Rex, you wasted alot of money to be a second rate powerlifter, and so have I. You must understand the mindset for hobby competing a little bit.

Grip is as serious as powerlifting but on a smaller scale. I have flown to Europe with a bunch of senior citizens who wanted to compete. The base- the older people and the hobby lifters (like you and I), will pay the way for those who can be elite.

[Mikael Siversson]

I think a longish term goal of serious grip strength organisers should be to purchase certified competition plates. I am doing it myself as we speak even though I have to pay 2-4 times more for Eleiko's PL certified plates in Oz than you people pay for them in the US. Certainly for the smaller plates at least.

[Bill Piche]

Great discussion by the people for the people!

[Bill Piche]

Rex, you wasted alot of money to be a second rate powerlifter, and so have I. You must understand the mindset for hobby competing a little bit.

Grip is as serious as powerlifting but on a smaller scale. I have flown to Europe with a bunch of senior citizens who wanted to compete. The base- the older people and the hobby lifters (like you and I), will pay the way for those who can be elite.

Man, I can resonate with the first statement.

The good news is I learned a heck of a lot along the way and a lot of others have benefited from my mistakes.

[The Natural]

Rex, you wasted alot of money to be a second rate powerlifter, and so have I. You must understand the mindset for hobby competing a little bit.

Grip is as serious as powerlifting but on a smaller scale. I have flown to Europe with a bunch of senior citizens who wanted to compete. The base- the older people and the hobby lifters (like you and I), will pay the way for those who can be elite.

Bob, I do not "waste" money on powerlifting. I spend money on powerlifting. There's a difference. If you feel you have wasted the money you spent on powerlifting, that's too bad.

Second, I am not a second-rate powerlifter. I am a competitive powerlifter (top 10 in the nation, regardless of federation or age groups). I plan to lift for at least another 5 years, but even now I am elite according to every powerlifting classification I have seen.

I do not know what you lifted when you powerlifted. I remember you saying your best squat is 495, your best bench is 400, and your best DL is around 585. I don't know what you weighed when you hit those numbers. That information would be needed to tell if you were second-rate.

Edited June 28, 2011 by The Natural

[bencrush]

I thought Bob was in the 600lb club on equipped bench.

[The Natural]

I thought Bob was in the 600lb club on equipped bench.

When I said he benched 400, I meant he did this raw. I was not saying that was his equipped bench.

[Chosenone7]

I think weight class be better.I'm 5 9 and weight 146 pounds.

I figure I would rather compete with people around my weight class.

[Bob Lipinski]

Rex, RAW lets you be a big fish in a small pond. You are top ten in a neutered field. I was top ten in the USAPL equipped bench list for a year or two, probably about the same level of competition.

There is a perfect analogy- Raw powerlifting, however superior to equipped powerlifting in many senses, is like grip in that regards- A competitive field for those who could not do well in other strength sports. And of course, both fields have guys that are genuinely strong and would be great no matter who showed up.

[The Natural]

Rex, RAW lets you be a big fish in a small pond. You are top ten in a neutered field. I was top ten in the USAPL equipped bench list for a year or two, probably about the same level of competition.

There is a perfect analogy- Raw powerlifting, however superior to equipped powerlifting in many senses, is like grip in that regards- A competitive field for those who could not do well in other strength sports. And of course, both fields have guys that are genuinely strong and would be great no matter who showed up.

Bob, the median raw total for top 10 in the 275's is 1905. 1905. There's simply no "angle" someone can take to claim that that is anything less than a very strong raw total. You're straining here, plain and simple. Nobody else in the strength community is going to side with you and claim that that is a "second-rate" or "neutered" total. Hahaha. I wish I could give you something to work with here, but there's just not any room for debate on this point. You've raised the standards so high that you're losing credibility.

Edited June 29, 2011 by The Natural

[Bob Lipinski]

It's a strong raw total for nowadays. Not many strong people care about raw. You are strong no doubt, but in the nontested RAW class you are very second rate. The angle is that when powerlifting was close to RAW you would not make your way anywhere near a medal podium. You are no doubt entranced by the weak standards for RAW lifting. If RAW lifting was taken seriously, 1900 would be nowhere near a top ten. You have zero perspective on powerlifting history.

Most RAW lifting is a backyard affair.

Rex, don't take offense. You likely will be worthy of being a national level lifter if you keep up the good work and train hard.

Take this-

http://en.allpowerlifting.com/results/WPF/USPF/1980/mens-senior-nationals/

Even given a generous 50 pound allotment for the squat suits of the day, you would look rough. You might crack the top 3 in the 198's on a good day. The 220's would have you reaching to make the top 5, and the 242's have you smothered. You could have taken Wohbehler, but would that have been worth bragging about? Of course, this is assuming you could make 275 without a 24 hour weighin. The Superheavies you would have beaten Kazmaier, but the poor guy bombed out.

http://en.allpowerlifting.com/results/WPF/USPF/1984/20th-mens-uspf-senior-nationals/

You'd have a good fight here in the 242's, you could likely get 9th place.

You are guilty of the same thing you accuse grip guys of. In fact, grip has a much better competitive field than RAW powerlifting because the top guys are sometimes at the same event and competing under the same rules.

[The Natural]

It's a strong raw total for nowadays. Not many strong people care about raw. You are strong no doubt, but in the nontested RAW class you are very second rate. The angle is that when powerlifting was close to RAW you would not make your way anywhere near a medal podium. You are no doubt entranced by the weak standards for RAW lifting. If RAW lifting was taken seriously, 1900 would be nowhere near a top ten. You have zero perspective on powerlifting history.

Most RAW lifting is a backyard affair.

Rex, don't take offense. You likely will be worthy of being a national level lifter if you keep up the good work and train hard.

Take this-

http://en.allpowerlifting.com/results/WPF/USPF/1980/mens-senior-nationals/

Even given a generous 50 pound allotment for the squat suits of the day, you would look rough. You might crack the top 3 in the 198's on a good day. The 220's would have you reaching to make the top 5, and the 242's have you smothered. You could have taken Wohbehler, but would that have been worth bragging about? Of course, this is assuming you could make 275 without a 24 hour weighin. The Superheavies you would have beaten Kazmaier, but the poor guy bombed out.

http://en.allpowerlifting.com/results/WPF/USPF/1984/20th-mens-uspf-senior-nationals/

You'd have a good fight here in the 242's, you could likely get 9th place.

You are guilty of the same thing you accuse grip guys of. In fact, grip has a much better competitive field than RAW powerlifting because the top guys are sometimes at the same event and competing under the same rules.

Bob, I am going to play this your way, on your terms. I do not enjoy doing this but it must be done.

You want to consider a different era of powerlifting. The 80's, am I right? Please tell me if I'm mistaken here. Based on your comments about what kind of equipment they used, and the years at the top of the lists, that is what I assume you have in mind.

I'll give you that, and I'll go along with you and restrict it to the USPF. That way, you can't say I'm doing anything shifty. I'm playing this your way, remember.

Now, we do need to consider that those guys were wearing equipment. Granted, they were not wearing powerful gear. Champion suits on squat and DL, blast shirts, and Gold Line wraps. It was modest gear.

You said the squat suits back then give a guy 50 pounds. I am going to make things even harder on myself, just for fun, and say they only give a guy 30 pounds on squat.

I am not even going to say that the gear gives a guy anything on deadlift. I don't have to do this, but I'm going to anyway, just to be generous.

Let's say the wraps give a guy 30 pounds. Let's say the shirts give a guy 20 pounds.

So the equipment of that era is giving a man about 80 pounds.

Remember, I'm being even more conservative than you were, just so you can't say I'm doing anything shifty.

The median raw total for top 10 raw lifters (275's), like I said is 1905.

Here is the USPF classification for strength levels in powerlifting. These numbers were based on the lifting done in the same era and same federation that you brought up.

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/elite.htm

What does it say is Elite for a 275 lifter?

1946.

If we assume that the gear of the day gives a lifter about 80 pounds, then the median top ten lifter of today's raw lifting would total 1985, roughly 30 pounds above what the USPF regards as elite.

How does Elite mean "second-rate"? How does Elite mean "neutered"? Remember, this is not my definition of "elite", nor is it the definition of some watered-down modern ranking. This the definition of Elite of the federation and era you chose.

Bob, please....I encourage you to give up this argument you're trying to make. Even when I give you everything I can possibly give a man in an argument, your argument does not hold water. I don't know why you keep trying to push this, but you have backed yourself in a corner now.

[Bob Lipinski]

Rex, do you even know when bench shirts were being used? And you get knee sleeves! Not to mention the 24 hour weight in! And I wonder what kind of judging the raw "top ten" got? I take back the 20 pounds from the bench shirt + the fifty of the squat suit!

Alright, you win. You are special.

[Bob Lipinski]

Anyways, taking back the poundage allowance you aren't Elite. And probably not competitive on a serious national platform, unless you choose one that most people avoid.

[OldGuy]

This thread has strayed somewhat from a discussion on handsize and or weight divisions in grip contests.

[Bob Lipinski]

Alright, sorry. Rex, you and I can agree to disagree.

[Mikael Siversson]

A comparison of Tommy Heslep and Martin Arildson demonstrates why hand size divisions don't really work that well. Both are in the 'small hand' division. Tommy has pulled 97k in the 2HP in competition, Martin has pulled 112k. Tommy weighs below 200lbs as far as I know, Martin weighs over 300lbs. How many of you think Tommy has modest pinch strength? Tommy is phenomenal in grippers but not even there would he be able to withstand the onslaught from 300+lbs of Martin power, certainly not with a MM set.

I have, as I said, competed against Martin when he was much lighter and I did beat him.

[jad]

Mikael, how does Martin do the RT, axle DL, Inch DB, and other wide pinch stuff? In otherwords, could 300# of Martin give away the advantage in a contest with RT and/or axle DL and a medley with an Inch? I'm not familiar with Martin's abilities other than absolute monster on grippers and 2HP.

[The Mac]

Out of interest, how much pinch training did Tommy actually do to hit that 97.8kg? I know he's still about so would be interested if it was a priority or just one of many things - I always got the feeling that Martin made it a priority to hit a WR pinch.

Edited June 30, 2011 by The Mac

[Mikael Siversson]

Not sure but it is of course not difficult to select events that makes it impossible to win no-matter-what if you have small hands. That's why we invented the adjustable pinch and use grippers with a deepish set in competitions. I think thick bars up to 2'' are ok for comps but certainly not thicker than that. Thickbar lifting is always going to be a, shall we say, questionable event to add to a grip competition.

The pinch lift is the #1 lift in most competitors view (and Brookfield's). It is therefore relevant to demonstrate how poorly hand size divisions work in this event.

Mikael, how does Martin do the RT, axle DL, Inch DB, and other wide pinch stuff? In otherwords, could 300# of Martin give away the advantage in a contest with RT and/or axle DL and a medley with an Inch? I'm not familiar with Martin's abilities other than absolute monster on grippers and 2HP.