Hand Size

[jad]

ehh, image won't show up

Edited June 27, 2011 by jad

[climber511]

Simply unbelievable!

[bencrush]

I want no part of running 1/4 mile. Ever.

How about 15 minutes of deep horse stance - followed by an explosive SWEEP THE LEG!

[Bob Lipinski]

Big guys will argue that pound for pound sucks, light guys will argue it is good. Same with handsize. The argument is way to old for me. Shape the sport by attending and promoting contests you like. That is what Mikael and Horne have done.

Remember also, Rex does not post in discussions, he issues proclamations.

[Jeff Parker]

I remember watching a strongman contest on TV, must have been a WSM, where the event was all the competitors hung at the same time from a thickbar over a pool. When they dropped they fell in the pool. Pretty entertaining to watch. Anyone remember it?

[bencrush]

I remember watching a strongman contest on TV, must have been a WSM, where the event was all the competitors hung at the same time from a thickbar over a pool. When they dropped they fell in the pool. Pretty entertaining to watch. Anyone remember it?

I remember that! At first I thought it was kind of corny. But it was a visceral reaction when their grip gave out and they fell into the water.

[Mike Rinderle]

You sure you weren't watching an episode of Survivor?

@Josh: I was just messin around with the weight vest comment.

[Mikael Siversson]

I am not sure where I fit into your categories but I personally have pulled 265k in the deadlift in the 90k class in an IPF sanction competition. I think I was ranked #8 or thereabouts in Sweden in the deadlift in that weight class. I competed once in bodybuilding and kicked everyones rear end (won the overall) so yes my body is reasonably strong, and, beautiful. I will take the WR in the one hand pinch in the 82.5k class and then, while weighing 82.5k set my target on David's 51.4k WR. I might end up stronger than you Rex in the one hand pinch if I am not stronger already.

Take up a sport for which you have few if any natural gifts, and then complain about other people being bigger and stronger than you are with far larger hands and find ways to drag them down to your level.

Grip has always been the fallback sport for those with few natural gifts who want to do strength competition of some kind. It is the common man's strength sport. The physical toll is small. The time investment is minimal. Training can be done at home, while the kids are being tended to and Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader? plays on TV.

I don't think this is a bad thing, really. I can see why some would want to keep grip this way. Like I said earlier, there is a fellowship component to grip. It is just as much about social interaction as it is about competition. Nobody wants to see their buddies drift away because the genetic freaks knock their noses in the dirt at every competition.

Like I keep saying, it's a different mentality. It's closer to a game of horseshoes with the family than it is to a national powerlifting meet.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Mikael Siversson

[The Natural]

I might end up stronger than you Rex in the one hand pinch if I am not stronger already.

[Hubgeezer]

Take up a sport for which you have few if any natural gifts, and then complain about other people being bigger and stronger than you are with far larger hands and find ways to drag them down to your level.

Grip has always been the fallback sport for those with few natural gifts who want to do strength competition of some kind. It is the common man's strength sport. The physical toll is small. The time investment is minimal. Training can be done at home, while the kids are being tended to and Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader? plays on TV.

I don't think this is a bad thing, really. I can see why some would want to keep grip this way. Like I said earlier, there is a fellowship component to grip. It is just as much about social interaction as it is about competition. Nobody wants to see their buddies drift away because the genetic freaks knock their noses in the dirt at every competition.

Like I keep saying, it's a different mentality. It's closer to a game of horseshoes with the family than it is to a national powerlifting meet.

About two years ago, or whenever Chad's meet was, you seemed to be working on changing this mentality. Have you given up and accept this? Since then, there has been two Mighty Mitts, plus the Viking Grip Challenge in LA. Is that changing the "sport" to something different?

I honestly don't know where "the sport" is going, as it seems to me that we don't know if those 3 contests are Evolutionary Dead Ends, or are taking "the sport" somewhere.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Hubgeezer

[The Natural]

Take up a sport for which you have few if any natural gifts, and then complain about other people being bigger and stronger than you are with far larger hands and find ways to drag them down to your level.

Grip has always been the fallback sport for those with few natural gifts who want to do strength competition of some kind. It is the common man's strength sport. The physical toll is small. The time investment is minimal. Training can be done at home, while the kids are being tended to and Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader? plays on TV.

I don't think this is a bad thing, really. I can see why some would want to keep grip this way. Like I said earlier, there is a fellowship component to grip. It is just as much about social interaction as it is about competition. Nobody wants to see their buddies drift away because the genetic freaks knock their noses in the dirt at every competition.

Like I keep saying, it's a different mentality. It's closer to a game of horseshoes with the family than it is to a national powerlifting meet.

About two years ago, or whenever Chad's meet was, you seemed to be working on changing this mentality. Have you given up and accept this? Since then, there has been two Mighty Mitts, plus the Viking Grip Challenge in LA. Is that changing the "sport" to something different?

I honestly don't know where "the sport" is going, as it seems to me that we don't know if those 3 contests are Evolutionary Dead Ends, or are taking "the sport" somewhere.

I think those will remain competitions for the few who are already elite. As you can tell, it's more or less the same crew every year. Jedd, Chad, Andrew, Rich, Tex, etc. As for the regular Joe who maybe has elite potential--if he trains hard enough, if he eats enough, if he does enough full body training--I can't see this demographic having the drive to reach that level. And the truth is, most don't have the potential to begin with. The few that have both the potential and the drive are extremely rare in grip, and most of them divide their time between grip and other strength sports. Jedd and Steve Gardener are the only two "pure" grip athletes I can think of. Even Paul Knight, who for a while was a pure grip competitor, is now seeing that his genetic gifts could lead him to do things in the world of armwrestling, where competition is fierce and the stakes are higher.

There's a comfortable complacency in grip. Most grip competitors just want to hit a few PR's, see some old friends, and make some new memories. I would hesitate to call them "athletes". There's nothing in grip that resembles the commitment you see in other strength sports. You won't hear about grip guys spending 100 bucks more per week at the grocery store, so they can break into the top 3 at the next grip competition. You don't hear about grip guys having sleep studies done so they can make sure they are getting the appropriate duration of REM. I don't know how many do full body training, but I do continue to see many grip competitors who could benefit from time in the weight room.

For a while I wanted to change grip, but now I think the general competitions can't be changed because the mindset of your average competitor can't be changed. Some men get beat at a competition and vow to do better next time. They are natural competitors. Others just shrug their shoulders and say "Good for him." They don't have any fight in them. And if a man does not have that in him, nothing can be done about it.

It's just like dogfighters trying to make a dog mean. They will beat the animal, taunt it, slap its nose, anything to try to bring out the fight in the dog. But the dog just won't bite back. There's no fight in the animal. You can beat the dog until its spirit breaks but it won't do any good.

That's your typical grip competitor. You can structure competitions in a way to make them more competitive. You can bring in talent from other strength sports. You can offer prize money. But nothing is going to bring out the fight in him. He's going to be the same sweet guy that everyone loves to drink beer with and talk to. He will try hard at competitions, yes, but there won't be any real aggression in him like you see in other strength sports. And seemingly nothing will turn grip into that kind of sport where competitors scratch and claw their way to the top. It's like trying to bring a Wall Street capitalist mentality into a Pueblo Indian community. They just aren't going to "get it", and only harm and offense will come from the attempt.

[Mikael Siversson]

I agree with your characterisation of the average grip competitors but some of us take this quite seriously. I want to beat records even if it will take me a decade to do so. You can't rush grip strength the way you can do with other areas of strength but consistency will win the race as tendon stiffness and thickness take a long, long time to develop to the limit.

[Hubgeezer]

Rex, enjoyed your post. You made some good points, well worth reading.

[Cannon]

I don't get what this has to do with having different classes or not.

Why should there not be a weight class just because some people don't have fight?

[Mike Rinderle]

I don't get what this has to do with having different classes or not.

Why should there not be a weight class just because some people don't have fight?

Actually I believe Rex's post was pro different classes. More opportunities for everyone to do well and have a good time. Everyone gets an MVP award.

I still think with the average grip comp getting so few attendees, more than the Novice, Open, Elite classes will create a lot of 1 person in a class (or maybe 2 or 3). No offense, but if there aren't going to be any losers then it really isn't a competition. More of a structured grip together. I guess you could have novice/open/Elite and within those break it down by classes around weight, hand size, age, etc. so that everyone gets a podium spot and goes home with a trophy. But in reality, all anyone would really care about is who won the overall contest anyway.

I just think that with a 10 person contest (that's got to be close to the historical average for a grip comp) talking of all these separate divisions is getting a bit ahead of ourselves. If the work Jedd is doing and the novice/open/elite format can bring in a new crop of competitors where you start seeing 30, 40, or 50 guys showing up for these shindigs, then I would fully support further dividing things. If we ever reach that point, I think weight and age are more traditional strength sport classes than hand size or wrap.

I personally want to always compete in the hardest division I am eligible for. I would much rather get beat by the biggest, strongest guys than win against a weaker field. But that's just me. My goal after taking so much time off grip is to improve enough to reach the elite class just so I can go up against the Andrew's, Jedd's, etc. again. Who knows if I'll get there, but anyone that knows my bending career knows I'll give it all the blood and sweat I've got to make it happen. Of course when i do get there, my new goal will be to do everything in my power to get good enough to win against the big boys. Age and hitchhiker thumbs be damned.

[Mikael Siversson]

I think the whole point with the 82.5k class is to keep track of records, national and world records and to generate more interest in grip sport.

Any competitor in grip competitions with hand size divisions or any other weight classes would be eligible for WR's in the 82.5k class as long as their weight was recorded by the organiser on the day of competition using a calibrated scale.

[jad]

I think the whole point with the 82.5k class is to keep track of records, national and world records and to generate more interest in grip sport.

Any competitor in grip competitions with hand size divisions or any other weight classes would be eligible for WR's in the 82.5k class as long as their weight was recorded by the organiser on the day of competition using a calibrated scale.

Not to open a whole new can of worms but could explain a calibrated scale? Ross Love and Richard Sorin are the only two American Grip organizers that I'm aware of that have this. The calibrated scales used by all the others belonged to the Post Office (or that was my understanding?). I see a calibrated scale as a HUGE barrier for this class to take off.

[climber511]

I hate it when Rex quits just stirring the pot and actually makes a sensible post of some value. He makes some good points that apply to some of the grip competitors but certainly not all – including Rex himself. I would not include myself as serious in the manner I think Rex is talking about. I’m not willing to do the things it would take to become “competitive” in grip or the other strength sports I enjoy. Doing drugs is kind of idiotic at my age – and gaining significant body weight that is muscular at this stage is going to be difficult if not impossible at my age without those drugs. And without that size gain – being truly competitive is probably impossible for me.

But the whole point of this thread isn’t really about this but about incorporating some type of division into grip sport – and how serious one is about doing “whatever it takes” is but isn’t the point – at least to me. Many people can’t or don’t wish to do “anything” to excel at any of these very obscure fringe sports. But that doesn’t mean that given the opportunity for a fair chance to compete against others like themselves – that it might not allow the sport to have some degree of growth.

As for Elite, Open, and Novice – let’s look at Nationals. Jedd and Andrew will be the only ones in Elite. Most of us will be in open, and a couple qualify as Novice’s using the first year rule. But truly no one who can meet the qualifying standards for this meet should be considered a Novice in my mind.

At the GGC held at Sorinex (2006 maybe?) – I told Strossen that I felt Grip was the last strength sport left for the average man – and I still think that may be true. And if that’s true, providing us an opportunity to get together, have some fun, and compete “against our peers” as seriously as each sees fit will be enhanced by the inclusion of a lighter weight class of some type – and do no harm to those who either are Elite or are willing to do whatever it takes to become so. I always come back to this – do we not have enough people because we don’t have weight classes or do we not have weight classes because we don’t have enough people. Gripmas has weight classes – it is also historically one of the better attended contests – might it be the weight classes? Beats me.

[daniel reinard]

It's wrap that give an advantage rather than handlength. Handlength is a poor way to state hand size. Hand size should perhaps be decided on how far the person's fingers encircle an RT handle.

Good point. I have 8" hands but cant completely wrap around a 2&3/8 pipe. I leave a 1/4" gap. My hands are a bit thick.

Daniel, I have seen your videos and you are really strong especially for how long you have been into grip. Have you been rock climbing a while or something?

Altogether about 3 years of climbing over the last 6 years. It gave me a decent base to work at this grip sport stuff. Started on a CoC #2, good not great. And the first blob I touched was a York 50# which went up both hands same day I got it. A couple days later clean and presses. I'd say not bad for never working wide pinch which climbing doesn't ever hit. But I guess I'll never clean a fatman with sub 8" hands.

[macaz]

It's wrap that give an advantage rather than handlength. Handlength is a poor way to state hand size. Hand size should perhaps be decided on how far the person's fingers encircle an RT handle.

Good point. I have 8" hands but cant completely wrap around a 2&3/8 pipe. I leave a 1/4" gap. My hands are a bit thick.

Daniel, I have seen your videos and you are really strong especially for how long you have been into grip. Have you been rock climbing a while or something?

Altogether about 3 years of climbing over the last 6 years. It gave me a decent base to work at this grip sport stuff. Started on a CoC #2, good not great. And the first blob I touched was a York 50# which went up both hands same day I got it. A couple days later clean and presses. I'd say not bad for never working wide pinch which climbing doesn't ever hit. But I guess I'll never clean a fatman with sub 8" hands.

No you wont clean the fatman! You should just give up, tiny hands

[The Natural]

I don't get what this has to do with having different classes or not.

Why should there not be a weight class just because some people don't have fight?

Cannon,

There is a strong connection between weight classes and the points I made earlier.

As Mike said, I think that weight classes are appropriate for the culture of grip. It's a sport that has a large percentage of middle-age or older men who have to be conscious of their health and bodyweight. They have no interest in the "whatever it takes" mentality. Read Chris's last post. He is a perfect example of someone who admits to there being significant limitations on what he will do in order to win.

So for those guys I think it's fitting to have a lighter weight class. I would even be in favor of a second weight class for "200 to 250" pounders, just because the bigger middle aged guy who weighs 240 has no interest in watching a guy like Brian Shaw eat his lunch.

Think about it from the typical dad's perspective. He budgets his money so he can fly to a grip competition. He makes preparations to spend time away from family. And for what? So he can watch a bunch of 25 year old NAS strongmen and 308 class powerlifters destroy him on every event? That's enough to deter even someone with a modest degree of fight in him. He probably won't make an effort to do another contest unless it's local. He feels he has no sporting chance.

That's the motivation behind all of this: to give everyone a sporting chance. The 50 year old man who takes Lipitor and eats sensibly is just going to give up inside if he feels that there is nothing to keep the 300 pound brutes from breathing down his neck at every turn of the competition. That's not fun for him. In response to the pressure, he's not going to start drinking gallons of milk, squatting heavy, and training like Chad Woodall. More than likely he will just say "You guys can have it. I'm done." I wanted to turn grip into a giant pressure cooker but in the end I see that this will just run off more people than it motivates. That's not the kind of crowd that you find in grip, and I doubt it will ever change.

[Mikael Siversson]

It is not that complicated as long as you have calibrated weights at hand (which you need for records anyway). Make sure you have a decent electronic scale and place 82.5k of calibrated weights on it. Record the nominal value and use that as a guide. It the scale indicates 83.2k then that is the nominal weight limit on that particular scale.

I think the whole point with the 82.5k class is to keep track of records, national and world records and to generate more interest in grip sport.

Any competitor in grip competitions with hand size divisions or any other weight classes would be eligible for WR's in the 82.5k class as long as their weight was recorded by the organiser on the day of competition using a calibrated scale.

Not to open a whole new can of worms but could explain a calibrated scale? Ross Love and Richard Sorin are the only two American Grip organizers that I'm aware of that have this. The calibrated scales used by all the others belonged to the Post Office (or that was my understanding?). I see a calibrated scale as a HUGE barrier for this class to take off.

[climber511]

I don't get what this has to do with having different classes or not.

Why should there not be a weight class just because some people don't have fight?

Cannon,

There is a strong connection between weight classes and the points I made earlier.

As Mike said, I think that weight classes are appropriate for the culture of grip. It's a sport that has a large percentage of middle-age or older men who have to be conscious of their health and bodyweight. They have no interest in the "whatever it takes" mentality. Read Chris's last post. He is a perfect example of someone who admits to there being significant limitations on what he will do in order to win.

So for those guys I think it's fitting to have a lighter weight class. I would even be in favor of a second weight class for "200 to 250" pounders, just because the bigger middle aged guy who weighs 240 has no interest in watching a guy like Brian Shaw eat his lunch.

Think about it from the typical dad's perspective. He budgets his money so he can fly to a grip competition. He makes preparations to spend time away from family. And for what? So he can watch a bunch of 25 year old NAS strongmen and 308 class powerlifters destroy him on every event? That's enough to deter even someone with a modest degree of fight in him. He probably won't make an effort to do another contest unless it's local. He feels he has no sporting chance.

That's the motivation behind all of this: to give everyone a sporting chance. The 50 year old man who takes Lipitor and eats sensibly is just going to give up inside if he feels that there is nothing to keep the 300 pound brutes from breathing down his neck at every turn of the competition. That's not fun for him. In response to the pressure, he's not going to start drinking gallons of milk, squatting heavy, and training like Chad Woodall. More than likely he will just say "You guys can have it. I'm done." I wanted to turn grip into a giant pressure cooker but in the end I see that this will just run off more people than it motivates. That's not the kind of crowd that you find in grip, and I doubt it will ever change.

Rex - in an ideal world and maybe - big maybe - given enough time, both scenarios might be possible. Bigger numbers, even of the dad crowd, could eventually bring some younger - more serious types into the sport simply by offering the opportunities. And dads with kids - who are willing and able to promote and put up modest amounts of time and money might be a better resource for growth than young gung ho types willing to anything - except the work to put on contests. Practically all the promoters are over 40 - if the sport loses them, there will be no sport.

[Cannon]

As for Elite, Open, and Novice – let's look at Nationals. Jedd and Andrew will be the only ones in Elite.

And Adam Glass!

[climber511]

And just for general information - if I had gotten into all this stuff 30 years ago - I would have been in the "do whatever it takes" group and kicked a little heiney on you boys.

I have competed in maybe a dozen sports - all of them Open class things - and won or placed high in all of them when younger - but I never was a specialist so never reached my potential in anything I'm sure.

Edited June 27, 2011 by climber511