Mikael Siversson Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Yes that is a good event although for record purposes we should really make one brand standard (e.g. Eleiko's PL bar) as results will differ from one bar to another. Some cheap ones don't spin very well. I am very bad at it as I lack in wrist strength and the specific finger strength needed but it is a god test of horizontal support grip strength. A crush event, a pinch event (adjustable width), a wrist event and a vertical or horizontal support event. What are, in your opinion, good horizontal support events? I have always been a fan of the regular one hand deadlift (no hook grip) on a standard barbell. Maybe handsize is less of a factor in this lift? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 With a single weightclass we are encouraging an unhealthy lifestyle. How many 300lbs 70-year olds do you see walking the street? Controlling your body is one aspect of being strong. I have always admired the awesome gripstrength of elite climbers and the 82.5k class will undoubtedly bring more climbers into our sport. The top guys in the 82.5k class will at least hold their own against children in thickbar hangs. No, the big heavyweight doesn't always win, in the ring / cage / street - but you do at least get to find out who is the best (OK, luck applies too, but since we're talking Grip and the Boxing is only an analogy I think it holds). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Mikael, I am glad to have you active again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Plenty of grip guys out there who are now excited by the prospect of finally being recognised for their pound-for-pound grip strength. Yes. It would certainly make the sport (any sport) more exciting if it only had one champion - the best person in the world. As I said above, I understand weight classes in combat sports due to safety concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 One thing I would hope for- If the 82.5 kg class doesn't bring in many competitors, I would hope the dividing line is raised up. But either way is fun. I think weight classes should help expand the sport, but I would not want to do it at the expense of competition. If the 82.5 class is weak after a few years, I would hope it is cut or raised. I'm not in charge though, or horribly invested either way. I do admit a 200ish weightclass would be fun, I have cut weight a couple time for that in the US. In the niche that grip holds in the US, 82.5 won't get many competitors. Thankfully, WSH will expand the field and make it a competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) The 82.5k class is of course a classical weightclass in OL (before they introduced new ones) and PL. The fact that there are not more people in this class in grip in the USA is, more than anything, a result of the population being overweight in general. I see lots of videos of grip guys performing feats of grip strength. Few of them are built like athletes. Carrying excessive weight will bring the increasing life expectancy that we have seen for decades to a halt and it will cost society huge amount of resources and capital. Raising the 82.5k class to 200lbs for example is a bit like super-size your french fries at McDonalds and a sad state of affairs in my oppinion. One thing I would hope for- If the 82.5 kg class doesn't bring in many competitors, I would hope the dividing line is raised up. But either way is fun. I think weight classes should help expand the sport, but I would not want to do it at the expense of competition. If the 82.5 class is weak after a few years, I would hope it is cut or raised. I'm not in charge though, or horribly invested either way. I do admit a 200ish weightclass would be fun, I have cut weight a couple time for that in the US. In the niche that grip holds in the US, 82.5 won't get many competitors. Thankfully, WSH will expand the field and make it a competition. Edited July 2, 2011 by Mikael Siversson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) In addition to the 82.5k class I think we should have a 100k class as well. Three classes should cater for most people. If need be a 67.5k class can be added too but I doubt it would have many competitors. These weight classes could all exist within a single overall class as well so it would not matter if there is only one competitor in a given class in a comp. as the results would be compared to that of others in the same weight class worldwide as long as standardised lifts are contested. One thing I would hope for- If the 82.5 kg class doesn't bring in many competitors, I would hope the dividing line is raised up. But either way is fun. I think weight classes should help expand the sport, but I would not want to do it at the expense of competition. If the 82.5 class is weak after a few years, I would hope it is cut or raised. I'm not in charge though, or horribly invested either way. I do admit a 200ish weightclass would be fun, I have cut weight a couple time for that in the US. In the niche that grip holds in the US, 82.5 won't get many competitors. Thankfully, WSH will expand the field and make it a competition. Edited July 2, 2011 by Mikael Siversson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Mikael, I think not only is the weight in the US is part of a problem, but grip mostly attracts guys from other strength sports here. We don't really recruit from rock climbers, most guys are former/current powerlifters, strongmen, etc. If that is the pool you draw from, you are going to get bigger guys. Regardless, I don't know if grip is the right place for furthering a social agenda. All I care about is averaging out the spread of competitors. If the 82.5 class helps that, I will not only go with the flow but be happy about it. I don't think 3 classes would serve the grip world well at this time. Again, I enjoy local competition. Sparse local (and by extension national) competition, in my opinion, leads to the record chasing, loose officiating, and competitors choosing unimportant local events for an easier "all-time" record. The cause and effect of this phenomenon would be a larger discussion. I think European guys have to a large extent been spared of this, though I see it popping up in the chase for the biggest superheavy deadlift. Chris's 207 weightclass bisects the US competitor pool very well, which is why I enjoy it. But again, all just discussion. I can go with the flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Bob, I think part of reason why rock climbers are moderately interested in competing in grip is the fact that they would be up against people around 250lbs that would barely beat them in some event. We all know for example that Tommy Heslep is an awesome grip strength athlete, not so much because of the numbers he can achieve but because he does so at a much lighter bodyweight than other competitors. It's not because he competes in a small hand category (as he would not be competitive againt Martin for example) but because he is light. He and others like him deserves recognition for being great athletes in their sport and the best way of making that official is by introducing a lighter weight class. Mikael, I think not only is the weight in the US is part of a problem, but grip mostly attracts guys from other strength sports here. We don't really recruit from rock climbers, most guys are former/current powerlifters, strongmen, etc. If that is the pool you draw from, you are going to get bigger guys. Regardless, I don't know if grip is the right place for furthering a social agenda. All I care about is averaging out the spread of competitors. If the 82.5 class helps that, I will not only go with the flow but be happy about it. I don't think 3 classes would serve the grip world well at this time. Again, I enjoy local competition. Sparse local (and by extension national) competition, in my opinion, leads to the record chasing, loose officiating, and competitors choosing unimportant local events for an easier "all-time" record. The cause and effect of this phenomenon would be a larger discussion. I think European guys have to a large extent been spared of this, though I see it popping up in the chase for the biggest superheavy deadlift. Chris's 207 weightclass bisects the US competitor pool very well, which is why I enjoy it. But again, all just discussion. I can go with the flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 No disagreements there Mikael. My only problem would be creating a sparse and barely competitive division. But like I wrote before, we will see how it goes. If it does attract different guys, then I will be as happy as anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Plenty of grip guys out there who are now excited by the prospect of finally being recognised for their pound-for-pound grip strength. Yes. It would certainly make the sport (any sport) more exciting if it only had one champion - the best person in the world. As I said above, I understand weight classes in combat sports due to safety concerns. Of course they are excited - everyone wants a trophy. It's great news for people who happen to weigh 82.5kg or so and are very good at grip - people like yourself, Mikael. Whether it is good for grip as a whole is another question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) When you contribute to the grip sport in major way like I have done over the years and David and others you get to set the rules to a considerable degree. People like yourself, who contribute very little, simply have to accept. Edited July 2, 2011 by Mikael Siversson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I'm sorry, I thought the point of this thread was to discuss the impact of divisions in Grip. You think it is a positive thing, I consider it a negative. I guess the future will prove one of us right, Mikael. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 Not that it matters but why was an outdated weight class of 82.5 chosen over either the current 77 or 85K class? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Bob, I think part of reason why rock climbers are moderately interested in competing in grip is the fact that they would be up against people around 250lbs that would barely beat them in some event. We all know for example that Tommy Heslep is an awesome grip strength athlete, not so much because of the numbers he can achieve but because he does so at a much lighter bodyweight than other competitors. It's not because he competes in a small hand category (as he would not be competitive againt Martin for example) but because he is light. He and others like him deserves recognition for being great athletes in their sport and the best way of making that official is by introducing a lighter weight class. Mikael, I think not only is the weight in the US is part of a problem, but grip mostly attracts guys from other strength sports here. We don't really recruit from rock climbers, most guys are former/current powerlifters, strongmen, etc. If that is the pool you draw from, you are going to get bigger guys. Regardless, I don't know if grip is the right place for furthering a social agenda. All I care about is averaging out the spread of competitors. If the 82.5 class helps that, I will not only go with the flow but be happy about it. I don't think 3 classes would serve the grip world well at this time. Again, I enjoy local competition. Sparse local (and by extension national) competition, in my opinion, leads to the record chasing, loose officiating, and competitors choosing unimportant local events for an easier "all-time" record. The cause and effect of this phenomenon would be a larger discussion. I think European guys have to a large extent been spared of this, though I see it popping up in the chase for the biggest superheavy deadlift. Chris's 207 weightclass bisects the US competitor pool very well, which is why I enjoy it. But again, all just discussion. I can go with the flow. I actually think if Tommy bought the equipment to train on and went at it for a while in a dedicated fashion he could be competitive against anyone in Grip. I think Tommy suffers from either lack of interest more than any physical limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Jedd, My problem with this argument is that it is speculation. The bodyweight distribution in the top 10 in the 2HP is not speculation. All sorts of hand sizes there (Nick, David and Martin for example have short hands) but you don't see too many guys below 82.5k or even 90k, none in fact. I actually think if Tommy bought the equipment to train on and went at it for a while in a dedicated fashion he could be competitive against anyone in Grip. I think Tommy suffers from either lack of interest more than any physical limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 It is a current weight class in IPF powerlifting and has been so for a long time. David Horne made the call and I support it. You guys can of course do whatever you want. You can in fact all pick your own weigh classes or hand classes. Not that it matters but why was an outdated weight class of 82.5 chosen over either the current 77 or 85K class? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 (edited) It is a current weight class in IPF powerlifting and has been so for a long time. David Horne made the call and I support it. You guys can of course do whatever you want. You can in fact all pick your own weigh classes or hand classes. Not that it matters but why was an outdated weight class of 82.5 chosen over either the current 77 or 85K class? Actually it's not. IPF MEN Sub-Junior & Junior only-up to 53.0 kg 59.0 kg Class up to 59.0 kg 66.0 kg Class from 59.01 kg up to 66.0 kg 74.0 kg Class from 66.01 kg up to 74.0 kg 83.0 kg Class from 74.01 kg up to 83.0 kg 93.0 kg Class from 83.01 kg up to 93.0 kg 105.0 kg Class from 93.01 kg up to 105.0 kg 120.0 kg Class from 105.01 kg up to 120.0 kg 120.0+ kg Class from 120.01 kg up to unlimited IWF 1 – 56 kg 2 – 62 kg 3 – 69 kg 4 – 77 kg 5 – 85 kg 6 – 94 kg 7 – 105 kg 8 – +105 kg APA Officially recognized bodyweight categories a. Men: 114½, 123½, 132¼, 148¾, 165¼, 181¾, 198¼, 220¼, 242½, 275½, 308¾, 341½, & Super heavy Edited July 3, 2011 by climber511 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Sometimes reality catches up with reputation. A lot of people on the GB thought that Tommy would pull closer to 110k or thereabouts in his first competition using the Europinch and smoke everyone. He pulled 91k I think. A lot of people though that Chris James would pull huge numbers in the Europinch the first time he tried it in competition. He pulled about 80k. Both of these guys have a very strong grip, no question about that but I always prefer to compare talent on the platform, in front of a judge. We know you have an extremely strong 2HP as it has been proven on the platform and that is how I prefer to valuate peoples strength in grip. I actually think if Tommy bought the equipment to train on and went at it for a while in a dedicated fashion he could be competitive against anyone in Grip. I think Tommy suffers from either lack of interest more than any physical limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 (edited) I stand corrected. In other words the 82.5k class USED to be classic weight class in OL and PL for a long time. This actually gives it credibility as I don't like the idea of changing weightclasses all the time. You should really have this discussion with David Horne though. I am happy with it and WR are already being recognised in the UK and WA. It is a current weight class in IPF powerlifting and has been so for a long time. David Horne made the call and I support it. You guys can of course do whatever you want. You can in fact all pick your own weigh classes or hand classes. Not that it matters but why was an outdated weight class of 82.5 chosen over either the current 77 or 85K class? Actually it's not. IPF MEN Sub-Junior & Junior only-up to 53.0 kg 59.0 kg Class up to 59.0 kg 66.0 kg Class from 59.01 kg up to 66.0 kg 74.0 kg Class from 66.01 kg up to 74.0 kg 83.0 kg Class from 74.01 kg up to 83.0 kg 93.0 kg Class from 83.01 kg up to 93.0 kg 105.0 kg Class from 93.01 kg up to 105.0 kg 120.0 kg Class from 105.01 kg up to 120.0 kg 120.0+ kg Class from 120.01 kg up to unlimited IWF 1 – 56 kg 2 – 62 kg 3 – 69 kg 4 – 77 kg 5 – 85 kg 6 – 94 kg 7 – 105 kg 8 – +105 kg APA Officially recognized bodyweight categories a. Men: 114½, 123½, 132¼, 148¾, 165¼, 181¾, 198¼, 220¼, 242½, 275½, 308¾, 341½, & Super heavy Edited July 3, 2011 by Mikael Siversson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I said if Tommy got the equipment he would do well. He's the first guy to ever pull 200-lbs on the Euro in competition, GGC 2005, Small Hand Division. That was without having the Euro in Training. I hear you on the performance on the platform statement though. No big deal. It's almost a non-worthwhile argument anyway, as I do not think Tommy has any plans of competing full time in Grip competitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 It should be emphasised that Tommy never made any proclamations regarding what he was going to lift on the Europinch. Others did it for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 (edited) I stand corrected. In other words the 82.5k class USED to be classic weight class in OL and PL for a long time. This actually gives it credibility as I don't like the idea of changing weightclasses all the time. You should really have this discussion with David Horne though. I am happy with it and WR are already being recognised in the UK and WA. It is a current weight class in IPF powerlifting and has been so for a long time. David Horne made the call and I support it. You guys can of course do whatever you want. You can in fact all pick your own weigh classes or hand classes. Not that it matters but why was an outdated weight class of 82.5 chosen over either the current 77 or 85K class? Actually it's not. IPF MEN Sub-Junior & Junior only-up to 53.0 kg 59.0 kg Class up to 59.0 kg 66.0 kg Class from 59.01 kg up to 66.0 kg 74.0 kg Class from 66.01 kg up to 74.0 kg 83.0 kg Class from 74.01 kg up to 83.0 kg 93.0 kg Class from 83.01 kg up to 93.0 kg 105.0 kg Class from 93.01 kg up to 105.0 kg 120.0 kg Class from 105.01 kg up to 120.0 kg 120.0+ kg Class from 120.01 kg up to unlimited IWF 1 – 56 kg 2 – 62 kg 3 – 69 kg 4 – 77 kg 5 – 85 kg 6 – 94 kg 7 – 105 kg 8 – +105 kg APA Officially recognized bodyweight categories a. Men: 114½, 123½, 132¼, 148¾, 165¼, 181¾, 198¼, 220¼, 242½, 275½, 308¾, 341½, & Super heavy Mikeal - I wasn't meaning it as a criticism at all - I was just wondering where the number came from. I have explained where I pulled my 94K number from and was curious as to how this number was arrived at is all. I have long contended that my number is flawed because the smaller guys simply would not compete and thus skewed the number towards the high side with no classes to attract smaller people. If this class becomes popular over the next few years - I imagine that if we used the way I derived my number might it be closer to your 82.5K number or at least in between 82.5 and 94K. At the end of the WSH series - we should do that and see what the average body weight turns out to be. Edited July 3, 2011 by climber511 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Chris, The 82.5k class, referred to as the light heavyweight class, was used for 72 years (1920-1992) in Olympic Lifting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Chris, The 82.5k class, referred to as the light heavyweight class, was used for 72 years in Olympic Lifting. If I was short, thin and naturally weighed 81kg, I would be all in favor of 82.5 as a limit myself as that would put me at a decided advantage when it came to getting my name in the record books. I'm just wondering Mikael, if you were taller and had a natural weight of say 91kg if you would be so gungho about the 82.5 number. While you didn't make the decision, you certainly seem to be it's biggest proponent. I have no bias one way or the other on where the cutoff is. At just over 6'3" and fairly heavily muscled for an old man, I'd have to cut off a leg or get AIDS to have a shot at getting anywhere near 82.5. It just seems from seeing how enthusiastically you defend the 82.5 number, you might have a vested interest in keeping it there. When I found out that you weighed around 81kg, I totally get it now. I'm going to have to loose some muscle weight to get down to the 207lb cuto5f for gripmas, but it should be fun to dunk a basketball in my mid 40s again. It's been about 10 years since I pulled that off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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