Mikael Siversson Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 I must admit that it surprised me to see how many people seem totally unaware of the history of strength sports when they infer that 82.5 is a random number (no offence Bob). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 With hand size divisions, the small hand category would eventually be dominated by 300lbs guys that would be outclassed in a RT/regular bar hang by children. Being strong is also about being able to control your body using that strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Love Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 My fault Ross, my negativity must have clouded my judgement. Lmao.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Having weight divisions in a strength sport is actually the norm, not the exception. Yes, and in the other strength sports, it is just as flawed. A flaw that is common is nonetheless a flaw. For decades, powerlifting has been faced with the uncomfortable problem that lifters in lighter weight classes often outperform lifters in heavier weight classes. And by "outperform", I do not mean that they come out ahead based on some arbitrary "best lifter" formula. I mean that their totals are higher. I've never attended a meet where this did not happen. The problem is that the lighter lifters are not recognized for their superior performances. A 275 class lifter can win 1st place in a contest even though four 242 lifters and three 220 lifers and one 198 lifter totaled more than him. It's an absurd situation. Everyone who pays attention sees what is going on, but nothing is done about it at the awards ceremony. People will always be interested in who is the strongest man in the absolute sense. Some may also be interested in who is the strongest in some qualified sense ("strongest of the smaller guys", "strongest of the bigger guys"), but that is an acquired taste. Organizations can toy with weight classes all they want, but an absolute ranking needs to be established too. Unfortunately, that never happens. Strength sports with weight classes do not have an absolute ranking. If grip follows this trend, it is to its detriment. This is a legitimate case of grip being able to learn from the mistakes of other strength sports, by including an absolute ranking alongside whatever weight class rankings come into being. The competitors are going to rank everyone in an absolute sense in the back of their minds anyway. An absolute ranking just makes explicit what everyone is thinking about anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico300zx Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 (edited) Rex, good points, you've been around this alot. After nats this year please post how the absolute rankings would look like. I think there is something to be said there. Are the absolute based soley on fact or is it a matter of personal oppinion too? Can you do the line up from last years nats a an example? Thanks Parris Edited June 26, 2011 by rico300zx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted June 26, 2011 Author Share Posted June 26, 2011 (edited) I'll just use my own contest because it's the only one I control. I have 2 classes (3 if you count the ladies) - under 208# and over 208#. I score my contest both ways. Open class - lightweight - and then unofficially as if it was only one big class. I do this just for my own curiosity but it does yield an overall result - no lightweight has ever beaten the Open guys. Power lifting results are so corrupted by the gear as to be meaningless anymore to anyone - including most power lifters. Why is it that 300# guys don't want to compete with other 300# guys but always want to include the guys from 130# on up in with them. Sounds a lot like the playground bullies we had back in school - always picking on the little kids but afraid to fight the guys their own size. The strength sports that do not have weight classes only have big guys in them - if that's what you want - this is the way to have it. Edited June 26, 2011 by climber511 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 I think the two divisions work very well for Gripmas because the number of competitors is large compared to most grip contests. I think the one I went to, there were close to 25 competitors if you counted the women. But historicaly most grp comps get 6 - 12 guys. If you do hand size divisions on top of novice, open and elite who isn't getting a podium spot? I used to be a firm believer in the hand size argument until I saw Chad Kovach own a blob with 7" hands. :blink Aaron Corcorran doesn't have huge hands and his are ridiculously thick, yet he is one of the elite grip guys out there and has lifted the inch. Eaton is the same way. Thick, normal size hands and he's a monster. So yea, hand size plays a part, as does wrap, but so do other factors. I think overall size and strength plays a much bigger factor than hand size. So if there comes a time when we actually need more classes than novice, open, and elite I would go with weight before I went with size of the hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Power lifting results are so corrupted by the gear as to be meaningless anymore to anyone - including most power lifters. Why is it that 300# guys don't want to compete with other 300# guys but always want to include the guys from 130# on up in with them. Sounds a lot like the playground bullies we had back in school - always picking on the little kids but afraid to fight the guys their own size. The situation in powerlifting that I describe happens at *every* raw contest too. It has nothing to with powerlifting gear. The playground bully analogy does not work. A 300 pound guy in a grip contest wants to beat everyone. He wants to beat the other 300 pound guy and the 130 pound guy. He does not just want to pick on the 130 pound guy. Incidentally, Chris, this is how I was on the playground too. Small, big, fat, handsome, ugly, sickle cell, autistic, honor roll, whatever. If it breathes and walks on two legs, I wanted to beat it. Even the kids who had only one leg, I wanted to beat them too. I apply that same mentality to any strength sport. I want to beat the gimps and I want to beat the studs. I don't care who they are. Beating anyone feels good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Well Rex, I guess if Strongman doesn't work out you could always take refuge as a writer for Cracked. Can't say I agree with many of your posts but they typically have me howling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Let's do a hang from a bar/RT handles then. Funny that this event is never contested. It is fun to watch and people outside the grip community would understand it perfectly well. Having weight divisions in a strength sport is actually the norm, not the exception. Yes, and in the other strength sports, it is just as flawed. A flaw that is common is nonetheless a flaw. For decades, powerlifting has been faced with the uncomfortable problem that lifters in lighter weight classes often outperform lifters in heavier weight classes. And by "outperform", I do not mean that they come out ahead based on some arbitrary "best lifter" formula. I mean that their totals are higher. I've never attended a meet where this did not happen. The problem is that the lighter lifters are not recognized for their superior performances. A 275 class lifter can win 1st place in a contest even though four 242 lifters and three 220 lifers and one 198 lifter totaled more than him. It's an absurd situation. Everyone who pays attention sees what is going on, but nothing is done about it at the awards ceremony. People will always be interested in who is the strongest man in the absolute sense. Some may also be interested in who is the strongest in some qualified sense ("strongest of the smaller guys", "strongest of the bigger guys"), but that is an acquired taste. Organizations can toy with weight classes all they want, but an absolute ranking needs to be established too. Unfortunately, that never happens. Strength sports with weight classes do not have an absolute ranking. If grip follows this trend, it is to its detriment. This is a legitimate case of grip being able to learn from the mistakes of other strength sports, by including an absolute ranking alongside whatever weight class rankings come into being. The competitors are going to rank everyone in an absolute sense in the back of their minds anyway. An absolute ranking just makes explicit what everyone is thinking about anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Are you going to wear a weight vest to even out the weight Mikael? Otherwise, that's about the most unfair test of gripstrength I've ever heard of. I'm not sure how you holding significantly less weight than the person you are competing against for a longer period of time proves anything. If, like in horse racing, you had to equalize the weight, then it would be a fair test. But if you're going to do that, you might as well just see who can pull the most from the floor. Unless you're testing grip endurance. But you would still need to even the weight to make it fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Are you going to wear a weight vest to even out the weight Mikael? Otherwise, that's about the most unfair test of gripstrength I've ever heard of. I'm not sure how you holding significantly less weight than the person you are competing against for a longer period of time proves anything. If, like in horse racing, you had to equalize the weight, then it would be a fair test. But if you're going to do that, you might as well just see who can pull the most from the floor. Unless you're testing grip endurance. But you would still need to even the weight to make it fair. Of course we won't even out the weight! Stop being a dad and just work harder to get stronger. We want the absolute best, fairness be damned! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 I've always wanted to see a grip-stacle course. Like run 1/4 mile, lift a blob. Run 1/4 mile, close a #3. Run 1/4 mile, bend a red. And so forth. The heavy guys might not do so well, but would that be unfair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico300zx Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 +1 Iwant to see the best too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 I want no part of running 1/4 mile. Ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 life is unfair from day one! I say give nothing to little guys with small hands when it comes to grip competitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 I want no part of running 1/4 mile. Ever. Yeah, me either in a grip comp. But it seems like the hand size argument to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 Are you going to wear a weight vest to even out the weight Mikael? Otherwise, that's about the most unfair test of gripstrength I've ever heard of. I'm not sure how you holding significantly less weight than the person you are competing against for a longer period of time proves anything. If, like in horse racing, you had to equalize the weight, then it would be a fair test. But if you're going to do that, you might as well just see who can pull the most from the floor. Unless you're testing grip endurance. But you would still need to even the weight to make it fair. Ah come on Mike - it's all right for you big boys to have an advantage in every single thing we do but heaven forbid the little guys get just one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 We need a sophisticated handicapping system that ensures everybody comes out even and we do not get the unfairness of one person winning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Are you going to wear a weight vest to even out the weight Mikael? Otherwise, that's about the most unfair test of gripstrength I've ever heard of. I'm not sure how you holding significantly less weight than the person you are competing against for a longer period of time proves anything. If, like in horse racing, you had to equalize the weight, then it would be a fair test. But if you're going to do that, you might as well just see who can pull the most from the floor. Unless you're testing grip endurance. But you would still need to even the weight to make it fair. Ah come on Mike - it's all right for you big boys to have an advantage in every single thing we do but heaven forbid the little guys get just one And my point has been made. Life isn't fair. Get over it. And I'm with Josh, if running becomes a part of grip or bending I'm done. However, I will say that if I get to the point where I can't bend a red, then somebody needs to call an ambulence because I am in full cardiac arrest. The bodyweight endurance thing has been used by wee people for a long time to make us big oafs look bad. I will never be able to do a muscleup on rings, however I'll try like hell without complaining if that's an event at a contest. There is no shame in losing to someone who is genetically more predisposed to a certain event. There's a lot of shame in trying to tear them down because of perceived advantages. It's like white guys complaining about black guys having better genetics for sprinting. Waste of time. Work harder. Or not. For years now I've heard people talk about how big Jedd's hands are and what an advantage that gives him. It's old and used up. What makes Jedd as good as he is at pinch is the fact that he works his butt off. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 We need a sophisticated handicapping system that ensures everybody comes out even and we do not get the unfairness of one person winning. Perfect comment! Strength Socialism!!! Seems that's where the whole world is going. Life isn't fair. Wear a helmet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Take up a sport for which you have few if any natural gifts, and then complain about other people being bigger and stronger than you are with far larger hands and find ways to drag them down to your level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 I almost thought Rindo was just being sarcastic when he questioned Mikael's post and hoped I wasn't being overzealous posting a response. Well from the those chiming in, it's apparent, it was made in seriousness. The total 180 all the big guys do when confronted with the thickbar hang...an event they're disadvantaged on, is frankly astounding. It's almost comical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Take up a sport for which you have few if any natural gifts, and then complain about other people being bigger and stronger than you are with far larger hands and find ways to drag them down to your level. Grip has always been the fallback sport for those with few natural gifts who want to do strength competition of some kind. It is the common man's strength sport. The physical toll is small. The time investment is minimal. Training can be done at home, while the kids are being tended to and Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader? plays on TV. I don't think this is a bad thing, really. I can see why some would want to keep grip this way. Like I said earlier, there is a fellowship component to grip. It is just as much about social interaction as it is about competition. Nobody wants to see their buddies drift away because the genetic freaks knock their noses in the dirt at every competition. Like I keep saying, it's a different mentality. It's closer to a game of horseshoes with the family than it is to a national powerlifting meet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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