Mikael Siversson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Tommy would be steamrolled in a 2HP comp., trust me on that one. Martin still pulls 115k+ in training with very little specific pinch training. He has always preferred PowerLifting. Out of interest, how much pinch training did Tommy actually do to hit that 97.8kg? I know he's still about so would be interested if it was a priority or just one of many things - I always got the feeling that Martin made it a priority to hit a WR pinch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I believe Chris Rice has pinched in the 230's and he's in the small hand category and aboutr 205#; so he might be a better case to compare to Martin. He's not on Martin's pinch level but he's in the ballpark and there is the fact that he's got a good 30 years on Martin. If they were both the same age, my money would be on Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) Tommy's previous result in the 2HP was 91k I think so he is not anywhere near Martin. Out of interest, how much pinch training did Tommy actually do to hit that 97.8kg? I know he's still about so would be interested if it was a priority or just one of many things - I always got the feeling that Martin made it a priority to hit a WR pinch. Not a chance imo. Martin does not train grip that hard actually, never has. Chris' only chance would be if Martin continued to show limited interest in grip while Chris gained a lot of muscle. I believe Chris Rice has pinched in the 230's and he's in the small hand category and aboutr 205#; so he might be a better case to compare to Martin. He's not on Martin's pinch level but he's in the ballpark and there is the fact that he's got a good 30 years on Martin. If they were both the same age, my money would be on Chris Edited June 30, 2011 by Mikael Siversson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 No, that's right, so I wonder if there is any comparison between the two on Pinch, whether it be by hand size, bodyweight, age or anything else. Martin is just much better on Pinch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I believe Chris Rice has pinched in the 230's and he's in the small hand category and aboutr 205#; so he might be a better case to compare to Martin. He's not on Martin's pinch level but he's in the ballpark and there is the fact that he's got a good 30 years on Martin. If they were both the same age, my money would be on Chris All day ^ +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) Mac, I have competed against Martin when we weighed the same (well he was a bit heavier than me but much smaller than he is today); I won. No, that's right, so I wonder if there is any comparison between the two on Pinch, whether it be by hand size, bodyweight, age or anything else. Martin is just much better on Pinch. Edited June 30, 2011 by Mikael Siversson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Not sure but it is of course not difficult to select events that makes it impossible to win no-matter-what if you have small hands. That's why we invented the adjustable pinch and use grippers with a deepish set in competitions. I think thick bars up to 2'' are ok for comps but certainly not thicker than that. Thickbar lifting is always going to be a, shall we say, questionable event to add to a grip competition. The pinch lift is the #1 lift in most competitors view (and Brookfield's). It is therefore relevant to demonstrate how poorly hand size divisions work in this event. Mikael, how does Martin do the RT, axle DL, Inch DB, and other wide pinch stuff? In otherwords, could 300# of Martin give away the advantage in a contest with RT and/or axle DL and a medley with an Inch? I'm not familiar with Martin's abilities other than absolute monster on grippers and 2HP. I agree that events can ruin it for a small handed competitor. A review of axle performances though (up to 2") clearly shows that nobody in the small hand category is even competitive so this becomes a gimme event for the large handed guys. Jedd had the wisdom to take it out of Nats this year, but it's still considered a big 3 event and part of the requirements for elite. I only used the thickbar examples because even though we both agree they're not good for contest purposes, they're still in the contests. If you're operating on the assumption that hand size neutral events will be used, then yes, bodyweight makes much more sense, but that assumption is not reality IMO. Depending on what's in the medley, Nationals this year will be one of the most neutral, large scale grip comps we've had and I think David is doing an outstanding job with his WSH series on that front as well. Hopefully the trend continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) I never understood the beauty of a medley as part of a competition I must admit. Very fun but hardly fair. I see it as a way of adding thickbar stuff through the backdoor. Not sure but it is of course not difficult to select events that makes it impossible to win no-matter-what if you have small hands. That's why we invented the adjustable pinch and use grippers with a deepish set in competitions. I think thick bars up to 2'' are ok for comps but certainly not thicker than that. Thickbar lifting is always going to be a, shall we say, questionable event to add to a grip competition. The pinch lift is the #1 lift in most competitors view (and Brookfield's). It is therefore relevant to demonstrate how poorly hand size divisions work in this event. Mikael, how does Martin do the RT, axle DL, Inch DB, and other wide pinch stuff? In otherwords, could 300# of Martin give away the advantage in a contest with RT and/or axle DL and a medley with an Inch? I'm not familiar with Martin's abilities other than absolute monster on grippers and 2HP. I agree that events can ruin it for a small handed competitor. A review of axle performances though (up to 2") clearly shows that nobody in the small hand category is even competitive so this becomes a gimme event for the large handed guys. Jedd had the wisdom to take it out of Nats this year, but it's still considered a big 3 event and part of the requirements for elite. I only used the thickbar examples because even though we both agree they're not good for contest purposes, they're still in the contests. If you're operating on the assumption that hand size neutral events will be used, then yes, bodyweight makes much more sense, but that assumption is not reality IMO. Depending on what's in the medley, Nationals this year will be one of the most neutral, large scale grip comps we've had and I think David is doing an outstanding job with his WSH series on that front as well. Hopefully the trend continues. Edited June 30, 2011 by Mikael Siversson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifesnotfair Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Martin is actually a great example of why weight divisions wouldn't work. One of the best in the world in both Grippers and Two Hand Pinch.... is not even competitive with the Big Dogs in Axle or RT or Blob lifting. Why? Because of his lack of overall body strength??? Come on.... Handsize division make much more sense to me. Fun discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) I think you missed much of what we just said. The best way of testing grip strength is to select events that do not favour a particular hand size. If you follow this principle then you will see a strong correlation between strength and size. Drop in size and your grip strength will go down. Hand size divisions makes sense if you eliminate events such as MMS grippers and Euro pinch etc. Edited June 30, 2011 by Mikael Siversson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Check out the bodyweight of all GB members that have pulled the Inch. You will probably see a bodyweight pattern very similar to that for the Europinch (big numbers=big guys). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Well he can certainly lift the blob right and left because it is on youtube. Don't know how much he can lift with an axle. Martin is actually a great example of why weight divisions wouldn't work. One of the best in the world in both Grippers and Two Hand Pinch.... is not even competitive with the Big Dogs in Axle or RT or Blob lifting. Why? Because of his lack of overall body strength??? Come on.... Handsize division make much more sense to me. Fun discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 The big dogs are not competitive in thick bar hang against my teenage daughters. Awesome stuff. Martin is actually a great example of why weight divisions wouldn't work. One of the best in the world in both Grippers and Two Hand Pinch.... is not even competitive with the Big Dogs in Axle or RT or Blob lifting. Why? Because of his lack of overall body strength??? Come on.... Handsize division make much more sense to me. Fun discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel reinard Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 The big dogs are not competitive in thick bar hang against my teenage daughters. Awesome stuff. Martin is actually a great example of why weight divisions wouldn't work. One of the best in the world in both Grippers and Two Hand Pinch.... is not even competitive with the Big Dogs in Axle or RT or Blob lifting. Why? Because of his lack of overall body strength??? Come on.... Handsize division make much more sense to me. Fun discussion. How many big guys can do a pullup on a doorframe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoggoth Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 The big dogs are not competitive in thick bar hang against my teenage daughters. Awesome stuff. Martin is actually a great example of why weight divisions wouldn't work. One of the best in the world in both Grippers and Two Hand Pinch.... is not even competitive with the Big Dogs in Axle or RT or Blob lifting. Why? Because of his lack of overall body strength??? Come on.... Handsize division make much more sense to me. Fun discussion. How many big guys can do a pullup on a doorframe? Matti maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 How can anyone doing grip possibly fail with that? How many big guys can do a pullup on a doorframe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 The big dogs are not competitive in thick bar hang against my teenage daughters. Awesome stuff. Martin is actually a great example of why weight divisions wouldn't work. One of the best in the world in both Grippers and Two Hand Pinch.... is not even competitive with the Big Dogs in Axle or RT or Blob lifting. Why? Because of his lack of overall body strength??? Come on.... Handsize division make much more sense to me. Fun discussion. How many big guys can do a pullup on a doorframe? All of them - they just pull the doorframe down to them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 A 230ish (I'm guessing)Doc jumped up and did some pull-ups off of Chris's climbing holds that he has nailed to the rafters in his gym. I don't think they're as hard as a door frame but it was a running start, he certainly didn't set himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tukkergrip Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I think you missed much of what we just said. The best way of testing grip strength is to select events that do not favour a particular hand size. If you follow this principle then you will see a strong correlation between strength and size. Drop in size and your grip strength will go down. Hand size divisions makes sense if you eliminate events such as MMS grippers and Euro pinch etc. I still don't see a big enough pattern you describe between bodyweight and gripstrength. Grip goes up when bodyweight goes up? Ye maybe a bit because of some muscle mass increase and more hand surface for 2hp.. But the same muscle mass increase often can be reached at a much lighter bodyweight, the record holder in the 2 fingers deadlift was very light. asswell as grip lifter supreme warren lincoln travis wasn't very heavy. Your quote ''Thickbar is for big guys that want to make little guys look like fools'' is actually a bit true ''but a person with normal human intelligence could see through that'' when we look at the history of strongmen and their ''challenges''. But it turns out to be a good event nonetheless for grip strength, one of the best allround. So dropping that from competition could be a bit sad ((... Don't you also think that the reason why the big guys are allways on top of the list in pulling inch dumbells etc is because of the reason that their often just doing more heavy lifting, more support grip work and have bigger hands on the bars/dumbells... Bodyweight has only so much to do with it..... But I do agree with the part that bodyweight divisions are more suited in a way, because all strength sports have them and it seems more normal. Selecting people on handsize seems a bit silly, but it's more fair to me, especially when you got events like thick pinch and thickbar.. Anyway even grippers CCS is handsize favored so why not drop all events that are handsize favored?? So drop Rolling thunder, thickbar, any pinch not adjustable that is wider than 2hp, any wrist roller above 2'', vbar 2''+, only keep 2hp, grippers MMS, and one finger lifts from a plateau with a nice 40inch ROM and 10second hold to the max with a suitable special bare iron perfectly fitting ring and a ready steady ambulance Oh yeah not to forget one finger fullsnatches on a 0.2inch bar and a midget handicap match for the Superheavies ehehehehehe now that would be a real mans contest. Grip is just a sport where hand reach etc. often means a lot just because that's called testing ones grip... and its hard to drop those events as a lot will be left out. But maybe it will be the future for grip> Having weight divisions and dropping some handsize favored events and standarizing events like 2HP and grippers. Seems pretty good to me but just not as fair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel reinard Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 All of them - they just pull the doorframe down to them A 230ish (I'm guessing)Doc jumped up and did some pull-ups off of Chris's climbing holds that he has nailed to the rafters in his gym. I don't think they're as hard as a door frame but it was a running start, he certainly didn't set himself. Nice. If it's at his place it'll be fun to monkey around. I have grips up and down the ceiling of my garage as well. Door frames are slick and generally smaller than most climbing grips. IMO the slickness is the bugger. One can't use skin friction to hang. How can anyone doing grip possibly fail with that? I agree. I've always thought one should be able to handle their own weight before worrying about other weights. That's just the skinny guy perspective I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 The big dogs are not competitive in thick bar hang against my teenage daughters. Awesome stuff. Martin is actually a great example of why weight divisions wouldn't work. One of the best in the world in both Grippers and Two Hand Pinch.... is not even competitive with the Big Dogs in Axle or RT or Blob lifting. Why? Because of his lack of overall body strength??? Come on.... Handsize division make much more sense to me. Fun discussion. How many big guys can do a pullup on a doorframe? If you mean by just the fingertips over the lip of the frame then I think I still can (255lbs). However, the last time I tried I pulled the wood at the top of the doorframe off and my wife was none to happy. So I don't think I will be testing this anytime soon. Big guys might surprise you how long they could hang or climb from thick implements. Last summer when I was up at Jedd's with Frank Snyder, Jedd hung a 2" rope from a tree so both ends touched the ground and we climbed that with a rope in each hand. Wasn't too difficult. And I was around 270 at the time I think. And I've seen Frank do pullups using two RTs at about 280 or so and I don't think he does much thickbar work. I don't remember if he has big hands or not. Probably around mine at 8" I would guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel reinard Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) If you mean by just the fingertips over the lip of the frame then I think I still can (255lbs). However, the last time I tried I pulled the wood at the top of the doorframe off and my wife was none to happy. So I don't think I will be testing this anytime soon. Big guys might surprise you how long they could hang or climb from thick implements. Last summer when I was up at Jedd's with Frank Snyder, Jedd hung a 2" rope from a tree so both ends touched the ground and we climbed that with a rope in each hand. Wasn't too difficult. And I was around 270 at the time I think. And I've seen Frank do pullups using two RTs at about 280 or so and I don't think he does much thickbar work. I don't remember if he has big hands or not. Probably around mine at 8" I would guess. That's ninja status Mike, minus the Mrs. whacking you on the head with the broken molding. Not many can do that, especially at 255. A double RT pullup sounds doable for most. At 280 it's equiv to 140+ RT pulls, which most men can do, I think. Edited June 30, 2011 by daniel reinard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel reinard Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Back on subject, I'm a noob light guy with normal hands. I'll do any event, thickbar, big pinches, whatever. When I suck it's because I'm not strong enough. So being big gives more grip strength, somehow. Big hands obviously help. But what about skinny guys who have hands that seem larger than they really are? Small hands on hub pinching etc too. I say take a strength and roll with it and take a weakness and work on it. I believe one can be "great" or Elite if they have hand strenth, not just with a big weigh-in and giant mitts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Check out the bodyweight of all GB members that have pulled the Inch. You will probably see a bodyweight pattern very similar to that for the Europinch (big numbers=big guys). Yeah, but it is only 172 lbs bro. I'd bet any male over 14 on this board could lift 172 on a normal dumbbell. It's hand size that matters on the inch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Mac, I have competed against Martin when we weighed the same (well he was a bit heavier than me but much smaller than he is today); I won. No, that's right, so I wonder if there is any comparison between the two on Pinch, whether it be by hand size, bodyweight, age or anything else. Martin is just much better on Pinch. So what you are saying then is that if Martin beats you now he it is only because he is heavier? Not because he has taken some time to work and improve with the events? I know you say that he doesn't train grip "seriously" - and that is true - but he doesn't appear to just turn up and compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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