Contest Thoughts

[Bob Lipinski]

If you were really serious about the data, you would only cross-reference people of similar deadlift strength.

Of course, then you would have found your answer as to why grip guys don't do as well in the farmer's walk. This isn't brain surgery! Grip strength isn't probably always the limiting factor here. C'mon Rex, you seem to be a smart guy. This is pretty basic stuff.

[Matt Brouse]

I'm over in the training log section getting stronger while guys are over here twiddlin' yer thumbs.

Smooches.

[james_grahame]

The only thing that makes any sense is to acquire more data about how gripsters do at the FH in competitive settings. Following my suggestion of putting the FH into more grip contests would allow us to acquire this data. And there are already abundant data on how strongmen do at this event, thereby making it high-risk. So we would have good information on both ends of the comparison. This would allow us to 'iron out' any distorting factors (bad back, hip injury, etc.) that can influence individual datums but not large bodies of data.

Are you going to be organising/running any grip competitions soon to help get us to this position?

[The Natural]

The only thing that makes any sense is to acquire more data about how gripsters do at the FH in competitive settings. Following my suggestion of putting the FH into more grip contests would allow us to acquire this data. And there are already abundant data on how strongmen do at this event, thereby making it high-risk. So we would have good information on both ends of the comparison. This would allow us to 'iron out' any distorting factors (bad back, hip injury, etc.) that can influence individual datums but not large bodies of data.

Are you going to be organising/running any grip competitions soon to help get us to this position?

James, a theoretical point can be right even when it is not followed by practical action. For example, it is very easy to show that most Americans should give more to charity, and have good arguments for that view, even if one does not himself give to charity.

Also, any grip contest I would host would turn into something akin to a Rob Zombie movie. While that would excite me, the conservatives on the Gripboard (the majority) might find it distasteful, sinful, and possibly even psychologically devastating.

I'm over in the training log section getting stronger while guys are over here twiddlin' yer thumbs.

Smooches.

Argument raises my T-levels, thereby promoting anabolic activity.

-Rex

[jad]

The only thing that makes any sense is to acquire more data about how gripsters do at the FH in competitive settings. Following my suggestion of putting the FH into more grip contests would allow us to acquire this data. And there are already abundant data on how strongmen do at this event, thereby making it high-risk. So we would have good information on both ends of the comparison. This would allow us to 'iron out' any distorting factors (bad back, hip injury, etc.) that can influence individual datums but not large bodies of data.

Are you going to be organising/running any grip competitions soon to help get us to this position?

James, a theoretical point can be right even when it is not followed by practical action. For example, it is very easy to show that most Americans should give more to charity, and have good arguments for that view, even if one does not himself give to charity.

Also, any grip contest I would host would turn into something akin to a Rob Zombie movie. While that would excite me, the conservatives on the Gripboard (the majority) might find it distasteful, sinful, and possibly even psychologically devastating.

I'm over in the training log section getting stronger while guys are over here twiddlin' yer thumbs.

Smooches.

Argument raises my T-levels, thereby promoting anabolic activity.

-Rex

As long as you have Sheri Moon Zombie there, half-dressed as usual, I'm all about it

[james_grahame]

Are you going to be organising/running any grip competitions soon to help get us to this position?

James, a theoretical point can be right even when it is not followed by practical action. For example, it is very easy to show that most Americans should give more to charity, and have good arguments for that view, even if one does not himself give to charity.

I know this and it is not the question I asked you. Your answer appears to be 'No'.

Also, any grip contest I would host would turn into something akin to a Rob Zombie movie. While that would excite me, the conservatives on the Gripboard (the majority) might find it distasteful, sinful, and possibly even psychologically devastating.

You do not strike me as the sort of person who seeks or requires the validation of others. I encourage you to run a competition, with events of your choosing.

I, for one, would watch with interest.

[vikingsrule92]

If you were really serious about the data, you would only cross-reference people of similar deadlift strength.

Of course, then you would have found your answer as to why grip guys don't do as well in the farmer's walk. This isn't brain surgery! Grip strength isn't probably always the limiting factor here. C'mon Rex, you seem to be a smart guy. This is pretty basic stuff.

Well said, brilliantly written Bob and Josh have made some very well rounded points in this argument and Rex keeps coming back to the exact same point over and over, in a debate forum I think we all know who would win Rex, dude, you can't qualify your argument with statements like 1,2,3 by saying things that go against your argument are wrong and therefore aren't valid. That's like me arguing Tom Cruise wasn't in Top Gun because from my point of view it didn't look like him and every website talking about it is clearly a bad example and not valid. Doesn't work.

One more example, ME!! While training for the BBB I decided to try something to train for HH, I got my 1 hand lift bar on my loading pin, loaded up 225 and was going to hold it for time. I've lifted 315 easily a long time ago on this apparatus when I wasn't nearly as strong as I am now, back before I could even lift 250 on the Axle or close a #2.5. However, when I tried to do the afore mentioned task I only got about 5 seconds, my grip could've held on for about another hour, but my legs were shaking like crazy and my back felt like hell. I am an AMAZING example here (narcisistic, I know ) because I will admit, I am quite weak. This is the reason strongmen are better at this event, because it requires BODY strength, and grip. While something like HH requires very little body strength, just enough that your shoulders don't rip from there sockets and you can remain on the ground.

Edited October 14, 2008 by vikingsrule92

[The Natural]

Well said, brilliantly written Bob and Josh have made some very well rounded points in this argument and Rex keeps coming back to the exact same point over and over, in a debate forum I think we all know who would win

While Josh made some some good points in his last response, ones that I have not had time to respond to (as I am attacked on all sides), I thought I could safely ignore Bob's point. Yet Derek and others hold them up to the light of day as a sign of triumph, and so I have to drink more and respond more.

Bob: Grip, overwhelmingly, is the limiting factor for the FH. Sure, there are other muscles involved. But I thought we had established way back on page 2 or 3 that even those who are not big brutes can handle the FH with heavy weight. Especially when the handles are elevated, as we discussed. Perhaps those with very weak back and legs--Heslep possibly and certainly Derek--may have to avoid those contests featuring the FH, but the same could be said for those who have very weak upper bodies and are not strong enough to handle the stresses of DO bending. Most of those in the grip community do not have this problem though. Even the contest results you provided show this.

Rex, dude, you can't qualify your argument with statements like 1,2,3 by saying things that go against your argument are wrong and therefore aren't valid. That's like me arguing Tom Cruise wasn't in Top Gun because from my point of view it didn't look like him and every website talking about it is clearly a bad example and not valid. Doesn't work.

Your analogy is inaccurate. The numerous websites constitute very good information. The information I addressed is low-quality because it is scarce.

A Better Analogy

A better analogy would be this. The philosophy majors at Hubbard University are known to be the best of all the majors when it comes to reasoning symbolically (formal logic). A mandatory class for the philosophy major is Logic 201. There is abundant information about how philosophy majors do at this, found on their transcripts located in the registrar's office. It's just assumed that if anybody wants to give credibility to their formal reasoning abilities, they should take Logic 201 and post their grades.

There is another, much smaller and more obscure major at Hubbard University, the math majors, and they do nothing *but* reason symbolically. They think that they have the best symbolic reasoning abilities. But for whatever reason, very few math majors have taken Logic 201, and very few philosophy majors have also majored in math.

The question arises as to which group really does have the best formal reasoning abilities. One math major (who we'll call The Natural) says to the other math majors. "Hey guys, their Logic 201 is really high-risk. We should all take that course and prove ourselves to be superior." But the other math majors will have none of this: "Come on, man! The top 2 math majors at our school took Logic 201 and rocked it! Also, Bobby Weslep, who we know is a genius, took Logic 201 and failed it! Also, a few philosophy majors have majored in math and done pretty well, and so math is a good indicator of formal reasoning ability."

The Natural doesn't know what to make of this. He explains to them that this information is not very good, as it is scarce. There could be distorting factors. They come to see that it *is* scarce. But they give another argument: "Look, Logic 201 also involves reading, and so it's possible that our verbal reasoning could fail us before our symbolic reasoning did."

The Natural thinks and replies: "Yes, but most every math major can read fairly well. We ARE in college, after all. Sure, we have a few autistic types who can't read but are math wizards, but they are special cases, few in number and hard to deal with. Let's just ignore their results."

But they won't have any of this either. They refuse to take Logic 201. The Natural becomes an alcoholic and joins the traveling circus.

One more example, ME!!

Yes, you are exceptionally weak. The exceptionally weak--pre-pubescents and the old and decrepit--would just have to avoid contests featuring a FH. But since the number of your kind is quite small, this would not be a huge problem in terms of rounding up participants, etc.

-Rex

[TKtheGreek]

One more example, ME!!

Yes, you are exceptionally weak. The exceptionally weak--pre-pubescents and the old and decrepit--would just have to avoid contests featuring a FH. But since the number of your kind is quite small, this would not be a huge problem in terms of rounding up participants, etc.

-Rex

yo didnt derek beat you at bending though which you say displays upperbody stregnth?? At like age 16 and a lot lower body weight, amirite?

Edited October 15, 2008 by TKtheGreek

[vikingsrule92]

One more example, ME!!

Yes, you are exceptionally weak. The exceptionally weak--pre-pubescents and the old and decrepit--would just have to avoid contests featuring a FH. But since the number of your kind is quite small, this would not be a huge problem in terms of rounding up participants, etc.

-Rex

yo didnt derek beat you at bending though which you say displays upperbody stregnth?? At like age 16 and a lot lower body weight, amirite?

Oh DAMN!!!! And Rex, I DL well over Double BW, I'm not particularly strong but I'm certainly not a "weak pre-pubescent." Grow up please and stop throwing out petty insults at me and Tommy Heselp (one of the greatest grip guys of all time). Thank you.

There is something established here that shows that grip is not the limiting factor. You even said yourself that strongmen, who have routinely lost to grip guys at grip contests when entered, can do a FH for longer then grip guys. Thus, by Logic 101, it can't be a solely grip limited event, it must be at LEAST partially body strength involved and body strength dependent.

And Rex, the exact same scenario re-worded doesn't constitute an analogy, it's the same thing.

Edited October 15, 2008 by vikingsrule92