Contest Thoughts

[climber511]

In the discussion on Chad’s Deep South Grip Wars – Rex asks for a farmers hold with 300# per hand as a possible event. Now I’m fine with that with the raised bars he recommended to raise it up where I can DL it possibly. But this brings the question to mind of how should we approach certain lifts when the idea is to provide a test of grip strength. Rex who is 300# of muscle thinks that a 600# partial DL on farmers bars is something that about anyone can do and then hold for a period of time. I know its one heck of a lift for me – not always even possible with a short ROM. Now this is certainly not a dig at Rex – it just shows us how differently people view what is heavy or even possible based on their own strengths – this is something we all do – myself included. Testing overall body strength or maybe a better way to express it would be – in a grip contest setting, should we design events (especially super heavy ones) in such a way that we minimize the limitation of overall body strength like Rex has tried to do here? I have to wonder if my grip or my shoulders – low back or whatever will turn out to be what stops me on this one? I give props to Rex for seeing my point and making every effort to turn it into a grip test.

In David Horne’s COC contest next year, he has a one hand carry of 180 to 200 kilos for 25 meters – I know I cannot do that event – just lifting it will be at or above my limit – not necessarily my grip but my body. He’s also having Dinnie Stones Replicas for reps – that’s over 700# and a lift many have tried and failed to do over the years. After all this is the World Championship contest and designed to test the best and strongest grips in the world which in general are attached to the bigger and stronger bodies in the world. Now I’m still planning on going and of course I will try my best but will those lifts test my grip or will some other bodypart (s) fail me?

I’m not for a moment suggesting that we eliminate such tests from contests but that we take a look at such things and do what we can to see if they are reasonable tests for a “grip” contest or if there might be ways to turn them into more grip oriented events with small changes. Perhaps a rising bar test of Dinnie Stones replicas would provide less of a make or break scoring opportunity? .

I realize that perhaps I am a bit unique in the sport – with hands that are generally stronger than my overall body strength and I approach and look at events differently than many. In this trend to heavier and heavier events I just see the divisive aspect possible – and we have enough issues already with hand size – body weight – attendance etc. It seems to me this type of thing will only further drive the sport towards only the bigger and stronger athletes capable of such lifts

I welcome everyone’s thoughts – in all likelihood I only have a decade at most left in the sport and that those will be declining years at best – but I do hope it can remain a sport for everyone – not just the 300# ers. And yes I do know I sound like a broken record whining about the size thing again but what the heck.

Please don't anyone take this as a criticism - it's just my thoughts and ramblings on a rainy day.

[MalachiMcMullen]

Chris, I know how you feel, me being a little guy and all. But I'm standing on the opposite side. I would actually like to see overall bodystrength tests focusing on grip in contests. Bending, levering(for the heavier weights), any pulling movement, one hand lifts, etc, all require strong bodies as you pointed out. Your arguement could be nullified if there were enough competitors to warrant classes. I really think that's where this sport is headed, some kind of class divisions. I don't want to see hand size divisions, I've made my case on that. Even if I could join ranks with the big guys voluntarily. I DO think that divisions on BW or just simple Class divisions with very loose criterian(Novice, Teens, Womens, Open, Master, etc) are the way to go. People outside the sport can relate to BW and class divisions and if there is a good bit of overall strength required in a certain event, the little guys, the inexperienced guys and the older gents wont have to worry.

Here's how I see it, if I were to advertise my comp with classes, I would set it up like this.

Novice=New guys who've never competed before, lighter weights, no BW/Hand Size/age requirements

Teens=If there are enough teens to warrant a class for that comp(even NAS contests have some trouble filling their teen divisions), otherwise, teens will have the same choice as the rest of the guys.

Womens=Women can join their own class, if they want to, they could go into the open

Open=Everyone welcome, no exceptions and it's all direct competition. You could have Mark Henry up against the worlds oldest woman if they competed.

Masters= Anyone 40+ years of age. No BW/Hand Size requirements

I'm not trying to cop out of answering your question as much as I am saying that it is really a temporary problem. Classes will help eliminate problems like that where some competitors can't even begin one of the events.

[barbe705]

I agree with Chris in large part . I think that there are plenty of grip related feats that don't require a 600# deadlift. For my part that is why I don't like the hand and thigh and prefer the 2" to 1" v-bar. I also think that there's some mistaken thinking that the more strongman type events are some somehow more legit tests of hand strength. I also agree with Chris's statement that a lot of guys have very different ideas about what is heavy and what isn't. 2 years ago at some highland games people tried to start adding some strongman events(stone lifting and farmers walk) the reaction was very negative. Lot's of people felt that since they didn't train those events that they were just asking for injuries. I do feel that if the farmers hold was an event that a lot of people would be limited by something other than grip.

brent

[cemery]

Very well written and thoughtfull post. I was going thru the same thoughts in my mind last night. Trying to prepare for a contest a few months away, I tried DO axle DL. I feel that my hands are capable of much more weight than I can actually deadlift. I understand that this is a strength based sport and Everybody has events that either suit their strengths or not. But, as of now, atleast until I train Deadlifts for while, my axle deadlifts will be a test of my deadlift strength, not my grip. Im sure in a few months after I brought up my DL strength it WILL come down to grip, but now it is not a grip failure for me.

[jad]

I agree with Chris. I love to watch strongman and am flat out in awe of most of them but I have no desire to compete in it. Grip is grip, it's not hybridized strongman. Grip should not test total bodystrength it should test grip strength. IMO, the common theme here is we all want to win and try to sway the events to those that suit us. The HH could easily replace the heavy farmers, test the same thing, and not exclude those who don't have the back for it but that's not going to favor Rex as much. 1 HDL could replace the axle and still test support grip and not favor handsize as much. Chris has the chokers to eliminate the set, which he admits he's not the best at. We're all guilty of it but what do you expect from a group that is so competitive that they compete in a sport with no earnings potential and recognition only among those on internet board?

[John Beatty]

I'd agree. If you get the lifting over the gripping, then the Grip comp becomes a Strongman comp. I can handle the strongman events, but feel that most lifts should stay under 300-400 lbs if you're actually lifting them. A 400lb deadlift, especially in a partial movement, isn't terribly hard to achieve, even for a smaller guy. Herc hold is an exception, there's no actual lift involved. You get a 600+ lb static hold, even if it's lifted to the athlete, is risky for guys that don't train heavy.

[The Mac]

A body not being strong enough for it's hands is not the fault of the event design.

[John Beatty]

I'd agree. If you get the lifting over the gripping, then the Grip comp becomes a Strongman comp. I can handle the strongman events, but feel that most lifts should stay under 300-400 lbs if you're actually lifting them. A 400lb deadlift, especially in a partial movement, isn't terribly hard to achieve, even for a smaller guy. Herc hold is an exception, there's no actual lift involved. You get a 600+ lb static hold, even if it's lifted to the athlete, is risky for guys that don't train heavy.

I guess I should qualify this statement, before people get mad at me. If you promote the comp as a heavy and/or combo type show, then fine, everyone has the option of coming or not coming. I guess I'm just saying there's risks to the back for guys that don't have strong backs. Especially if your hands allow you to hold on when you fatigue & start shaking a bit.

[mobsterone]

A body not being strong enough for it's hands is not the fault of the event design.

Man states obvious. Does not win prize.

Others have already mentioned they wish to test their grip - not their whole body.

[The Mac]

A body not being strong enough for it's hands is not the fault of the event design.

Man states obvious. Does not win prize.

Others have already mentioned they wish to test their grip - not their whole body.

Call it a preference then. Will we see no more one-hand lift / deadlift at the British then? I would hope not.

Chris makes his points well, as always. However, to turn it around and look at it from a diifferent angle, I do not often hear powerlifters criticising the deadlift as a competitive lift even though it is for many limited by grip strength and not the strength of the legs and back etc.

[climber511]

A body not being strong enough for it's hands is not the fault of the event design.

Man states obvious. Does not win prize.

Others have already mentioned they wish to test their grip - not their whole body.

Call it a preference then. Will we see no more one-hand lift / deadlift at the British then? I would hope not.

Chris makes his points well, as always. However, to turn it around and look at it from a diifferent angle, I do not often hear powerlifters criticising the deadlift as a competitive lift even though it is for many limited by grip strength and not the strength of the legs and back etc.

That is true but they do have weight classes to allow them to compete with guys close to their own size at least. I feel I have a reasonable chance of lifting what many 200# gripsters do but not what the big boys can lift - fifty to a hundred pounds of muscle is quite an advantage when lifting maximum weights.

[MalachiMcMullen]

That is true but they do have weight classes to allow them to compete with guys close to their own size at least. I feel I have a reasonable chance of lifting what many 200# gripsters do but not what the big boys can lift - fifty to a hundred pounds of muscle is quite an advantage when lifting maximum weights.

Which is where I came in and said that the problem you stated is a "growing pain" of the sport. Right now, there aren't enough competitors to warrant classes, though you and I are holding competitions with classes regardless to see what happens. The kind of problem you are having will disappear when classes become the norm. Whatever the final decision is on how they are divided, they will no doubt make competition as fair as any other classed sport.

[tja]

I've only been to one competition so far. While I liked the farmer's walk and deadlift lockouts, a friend of mine who hasn't done any weight/grip training at all, wasn't too happy and was afraid of hurting himself. I think it might be easier to get people involved with lifts that do not require huge total body strength.

[vikingsrule92]

As a small, weaker body then hands, guy like Chris I'm definitely with him on this one. I agree with Josh too, Strongman and grip are seperate, even though some contests try to combine them. I totally understand for Chad's comp it's a hybrid of sorts and I'm ok with that, I just won't be attending, but personally I'm not a big fan of the combo. Grip and body strength pretty much must be mixed to an extent, because it'd be pretty hard to find 5-6 events that are 100% grip, not body strength at all, dependent. However I think they should be mixed as minimally as possible.

[The Natural]

For a long time, people conceived of chess as a purely mental activity. But the game became much more competitive in the 20th century, with the advent of super-grandmasters and so forth springing up all over the world, players that made a quantum leap in ability compared to their 19th century predecessors. One consequence of the game growing in popularity and hence competitiveness was that the games became longer. Also, matches became longer. This was necessary in order to separate the best from the very best. Everyone was looking for a competitive advantage in this new setting.

Then chess players realized that physical fitness yielded a significant competitive edge. It improved circulation, aided endurance, helped them better handle the stress, etc. The top grandmasters began to do cardio training and lift weights in order to improve their performances. Chess, in a way, became a "full body" sport, testing not just the mental but also the physical.

Well, that's exactly what will happen as grip becomes more popular and more competitive. To find out who truly has the strongest grip, the events are going to involve more and more full body strength (though bending will most likely disappear, as it tests grip about as well as push-ups test brute strength). This will not happen because promoters want to turn it into a strongman contest. It will happen simply because those with more full body strength, ceteris paribus, will have stronger hands. And the promoters will want to find the strongest hands out there, other considerations be damned.

How many Gripboard members can deadlift 500 pounds? If you can't, you had better start training the deadlift hard, because a 500# Axle DL is not far off. As grip grows, having the inability to DL 500 pounds will not get you any sympathy from the top guys. (This is aimed at those who wish to be the best, i.e. the competitors. For those who don't want to be the best, I have little to say to you).

The future favors the strong. Those who are weak will either need to get strong, or else they will be relegated to the fringes of grip and continue to compete in garages while the rest of the sport moves into larger venues.

-Rex

[jad]

For a long time, people conceived of chess as a purely mental activity. But the game became much more competitive in the 20th century, with the advent of super-grandmasters and so forth springing up all over the world, players that made a quantum leap in ability compared to their 19th century predecessors. One consequence of the game growing in popularity and hence competitiveness was that the games became longer. Also, matches became longer. This was necessary in order to separate the best from the very best. Everyone was looking for a competitive advantage in this new setting.

Then chess players realized that physical fitness yielded a significant competitive edge. It improved circulation, aided endurance, helped them better handle the stress, etc. The top grandmasters began to do cardio training and lift weights in order to improve their performances. Chess, in a way, became a "full body" sport, testing not just the mental but also the physical.

Well, that's exactly what will happen as grip becomes more popular and more competitive. To find out who truly has the strongest grip, the events are going to involve more and more full body strength (though bending will most likely disappear, as it tests grip about as well as push-ups test brute strength). This will not happen because promoters want to turn it into a strongman contest. It will happen simply because those with more full body strength, ceteris paribus, will have stronger hands. And the promoters will want to find the strongest hands out there, other considerations be damned.

All the more reason for promoters to stick to events that test grip and not total body strength. Make a HH 800# instead of 600#, there's bigger grippers than anyone will ever close, 2HP will never be an backstrength issue, etc.. There is no need for heavy farmer's walks or other strongman-type grip events in grip contests.

How many Gripboard members can deadlift 500 pounds? If you can't, you had better start training the deadlift hard, because a 500# Axle DL is not far off. As grip grows, having the inability to DL 500 pounds will not get you any sympathy from the top guys. (This is aimed at those who wish to be the best, i.e. the competitors. For those who don't want to be the best, I have little to say to you).

The axle is an absolute joke. To borrow your analogy; It tests grip strength about as well as push-ups test brute strength. At BBB, Big Tony (HUGE hands) smoked 285 or whatever is was on the 2.5" axle. Chad and Dave were the only competitors capable of lifting it (both have large hands). At the HH, Big Tony did something like 5 secs. I think he was injured but I don't think his limp effected his HH time to a great degree. John Beatty, who couldn't pull the axle, yet held the HH for 30 sec, not only beating Tony, but Dave as well, by about 10 sec. Beatty holds a couple of DL records so I don't think backstrength is an issue for him and obviously the man has support grip. I believe he pulled 350-360 on a 2" axle...hmmmmm.

The future favors the strong. Those who are weak will either need to get strong, or else they will be relegated to the fringes of grip and continue to compete in garages while the rest of the sport moves into larger venues.

-Rex

[The Natural]

This amuses me to no end. Call it the Eternal Dilemma of Grip...

We wish to put in support grip events. We can do this either one of two ways.

1) We use a lighter weight paired with a thick handle.

But then the Hand-Size-Objectors chime in and snuff out that idea (witness jad's post above).

2) We use a heavier weight paired with a regular handle.

But then the Body-Strength-Objectors chime in and stuff out that idea (witness multiple posts above).

My head spins!

-Rex

[jad]

Or you could do a Hercules Hold (witness jad's post, 2 above), an event that favors neither, as evidenced by both Chris (small/medium hand, non-500 DL) and Chad (huge hand, 500+DL) winning it.

Dilemma solved, no applause, just your money.

[matthcarl]

I don't have much of an opinion, but I am pretty sure I could not lift 300# per hand on a FW implement. I am only 5'7" tall and about as bulked at 200 lbs as I care to get. If the idea is to get the strongest guys into grip...thereby driving people like me away, intentionally or otherwise...is obviously up to the promoter. But that is what will happen.

[climber511]

OK this is another long one

Rex – I imagine you are right and yet hopefully wrong. In today’s world it seems as if only the very best – very biggest – very strongest receive the accolades. But I find it sad that there is no place left for those of us who don’t make the grade due to whatever accident of birth befell us or the desire or inability to weigh better than 250 or 300#. Other sports have divisions and of course the media etc still focus’s 90% of their attention on the Super Heavyweight divisions in almost all cases of strength sports but the lighter guys still get to play the game even if it is with less fanfare. Grip has the potential to at the least allow the less than giants among us to compete in a fair manner among ourselves – given the chance of some class structure that promotes some fairness of size and the corresponding levels of strength. For the most part – the members of the Gripboard are “normal” guys enjoying a sport that we love. As I have watched it over the several years I have competed I have seen many changes – the current one being a push towards a comparison to Strongman in the belief than the strongest grips in the world are there. Which is no doubt true to some extent – 300# semi pro or totally professional strength athletes – given the motivation to train the events certainly should out lift 200# men even given the same circumstances. Does that mean we should just dismiss everyone who can’t make the top levels? I hope not. There are many of us out here who know we will never be one of the top guys as you say – but I/we feel we should have the right to compete against our peers in grip.

Just for a moment Rex let’s compare you and I at GGC

Chris – Rex

Grippers – 2.5 and 2.5

Euro Pinch -212 – 217

Axle – 342 – 342

Medley – 7 – 13

Bending – 505 – 485

Place – 9 - 5

I weigh 200# and you 300# - my hands are 7 5/8” and yours are – well bigger than that. In a pure grip contest I held my own fairly well except in the medley – where I believe your hand size and body strength allowed you to simply run right by me (I had 4 or 5 more items to full DL and couldn’t lift them to the platform. My max DL right now is about 385# with a best ever of 495# years ago - your hand strength only allowed you to lift perhaps half of your total DL. Now had the events been such that the DL numbers possible for us both reached 600# - I would have failed and you wouldn’t have – and that may or may not have anything to do with grip. Do I need to get stronger – of course I do and I train hard to do just that – but I believe that at my stage of life – gaining weight might be the only way I can do that – and that doesn’t fit into my other life goals – and that doesn’t address my back issues positively either. My support grip strength endurance is OK judging my the results of the Scale Weight and Hercules Hold events at BBB the last couple years – but those events are not overall body strength limiting.

The real difference is that I have no real significant upside left where in your case – your fairly brief number of grip training years means you will improve dramatically over the next few years. And with no governor in the way of body strength or hand size to hold you back – there is no telling how far you may go. On the other hand – I feel I have and should have the right to compete against “my peers” – not only against the giants among us. I’ll continue to play with you big boys as best I can but I’d like at least a shot at winning one someday. I sincerely hope that I don’t see the day when only the biggest among us can play. I guess I simply cannot understand why all the bigger guys out there are so dead set against any type of size divisions in grip – it truly doesn’t affect you in any way – except we wouldn’t be there for you to beat in a contest. All we want to a chance to have a light weight division that you can choose not to compete in if you choose – what’s the problem?

[Matt Brouse]

Try to follow this (as much as I try to verbalize it):

I believe that a grip competition should revolve around tests of the hands and (when obviously reasonable) only the hands.

The events of a competition that extend north of the wrist/elbow, however, shouldn't be limited by self-imposed limits of the competitive population. A sports evolution has a direct relationship with the will of it's participants.

Thusly, if a 500lb. axle dead lift is soon-to-come, then it would behoove the contestants to train with said things in mind.

Beyond that, we tap into the personal training preferences of the individual. For example, a grip athlete may not enjoy lifting heavy weights (in the traditional sense of barbells or perhaps, strongman events) just as certain grip athletes may not attend to certain events (bending seems a common choice, but obviously mine) but these are the preferences of said individual.

Set your own limits.

[bencrush]

Well spoken Josh, Chris, and Matt. I'm a firm believer in GRIP contests being about grip. Not about overall body strength. If we want that kind of contest we can enter a powerlifting meet or a strongman contest. I don't think all the grip events should be super light weight. I enjoyed the hercules hold until I let go. Heavy weights are great as long as it doesn't test the body's ability to lift the weight first.

Bending actually does tax the grip a good bit though. I've proven this a few times with guys who occasionally train with me who argue that bending is not at all grip dependent. I've used two tests. The first one is to have them rep out to exhaustion on both hands, with a Trainer or #1, depending on their strength level. Then I immediately hand them a wrapped nail that's well within their strength level. Usually something they would have to focus to bend, but nothing that would tax them to the max if they're fresh. Not even one of them has bent the bar within 5 minutes after repping out the Trainer.

The other test is the reverse. Have them bend something very hard, a near-max bend. Then immediately hand them a gripper that is very near their max. They'll fail on it every time. These might not convince some people, but I've seen some guys that have a ton of upper body strength strip the flesh off their hands when they bend because they've got enough horsepower to crush the steel, but not enough to hold on to the pads while they're crushing the steel.

[vikingsrule92]

A few points:

1. Rex we've discussed this, bending will NEVER dissapear. It's been around since the mid 1800s and it's not going anywhere anytime soon.

2. A 500# DL at my BW would be near, if not over the World Record, so ummm huh? And I've been trying to put on weight for months so don't bring that up at this juncture.

3. Josh I agree with you again. Grip should be grip, the only strongman event that should be at all associated is the HH because it's almost entirely grip strength. Personally I wouldn't object to the bigger handle farmer holds because that wouldn't be a limit on anyone's body strength, just grip. This is assuming it's not a 3" handle or something. However I still think the HH is a much better test of static grip strength and why would you need more than one test for static strength per comp?

4. Chris you made a lot of very good points and I agree and like the point you made about us not all being lucky enough to get the genetics to easily become 300# of semi-lean muscle with 9" hands. Also just as a P.S. check your pm box

Edited October 9, 2008 by vikingsrule92

[Matt Brouse]

2. A 500# DL at my BW would be near, if not over the World Record, so ummm huh? And I've been trying to put on weight for months so don't bring that up at this juncture.

This would be one reasoning behind coming up with weight classes or whatever. The same reason we use them elsewhere.

[MalachiMcMullen]

2. A 500# DL at my BW would be near, if not over the World Record, so ummm huh? And I've been trying to put on weight for months so don't bring that up at this juncture.

This would be one reasoning behind coming up with weight classes or whatever. The same reason we use them elsewhere.

Indeed.