Contest Thoughts

[Too Tall]

I see Rex's point as friendly one...and I see and acknowledge everyone's point on the hand size issue...because it makes A LOT of sense. Big hands cover more surface area on the bar and aid in the lift no doubt. I too would like to see more new events that the audience would enjoy...like the HH at BBB with the cars (way cool). Maybe the FW with different diameter bar selection like some already have...to make it more fair. Kind of like having selections on the 2hp. Lets say if your hand is over 8.0 you have to use a thicker handle and under a smaller handle...and put time against time...that might be more fair...and have the handles high enough to offset the leg/back power.

Kind of off topic though...in 2003 I could not close the #3 or pick up a blob, 45 hub, anvil, barely 2 25's, and 170ish on the RT, and could not bend the blue nail(seriously no joke). I was at a point where I could settle or turn it up and bring up my weaknesses...so I got my butt to work and never looked back...I know that my hands are still the same size as they were then...but grabbing that VERY narrow 45# hub was a challenge for me with Big Hands...but I did not let it stop me in my pursuit.

Just my thoughts

Chad

Edited October 9, 2008 by Too Tall

[Bob Lipinski]

Remember, we are doing all this because we are competing in GRIP events. If you want to do strongman, go do that. I agree it would be fun to share some things in common with strongman SOMETIMES.

Part of the mystique of grip stuff is little wiry guys like Helsep, Pat P, Atom (well, Pat P is small in the "lifter" world) who can do amazing things with hand and arm stuff that bigger guys can't touch.

Many of the "Hand Size Objectors" aren't complaining about about common events in contests much- Maybe some whining in theory but most of us can handle the axle here and there. You've instigated things a little Rex when you talked about "functional" exercises, then listed all the ones that take big hands to succeed. Yup- Axle, blob by the face, and RT might make a fun contest but like I have said before, you'd have almost as much luck figuring out the placings with a hand measurement before the contest.

[Bob Lipinski]

Unfortunately this is all just speculation, because the grip community for the most part avoids any overlap with strongman events. That's why I wanted a FH. We could compare our times to the times of amateur strongmen. If our times were better, this would give some credibility to our claims to great grip strength.

Why don't you just look and see how strongman guys do in grip events? Odd Haugen has contest results online. It wasn't very suprising, he did just okay in pinch, grippers, and vbar, and set a record on the axle. As how Big Tony did at BBB. John Beatty himself is a pro strongman and you can see how he has placed in 4 contests.

If you want to see how strongman guys do in grip contests, bring them to us. Yep, it wouldn't be too suprising if a bunch of really strong guys beat out the grip community in events the strongmen always do and many grip people don't. I'll tell you what though, unless you bring out the mega-monsters, it would be suprising to see someone do more with a farmer's than Jedd, Chad, or Dave Horne.

[climber511]

As often happens - it seems I got another good one going hehe!

In the discussion on Chad’s Deep South Grip Wars – Rex asks for a farmers hold with 300# per hand as a possible event. Now I’m fine with that with the raised bars he recommended to raise it up where I can DL it possibly. But this brings the question to mind of how should we approach certain lifts when the idea is to provide a test of grip strength. Rex who is 300# of muscle thinks that a 600# partial DL on farmers bars is something that about anyone can do and then hold for a period of time. I know its one heck of a lift for me – not always even possible with a short ROM. Now this is certainly not a dig at Rex – it just shows us how differently people view what is heavy or even possible based on their own strengths – this is something we all do – myself included. Testing overall body strength or maybe a better way to express it would be – in a grip contest setting, should we design events (especially super heavy ones) in such a way that we minimize the limitation of overall body strength like Rex has tried to do here?

Here's the start of the original post - I wasn't really saying not to have heavy events but to try and figure out a way (or the best way) to make them a "grip" test. Look at the last sentence of the above paragraph please! Rex's method of raising it to give me (anyone) a short ROM for the lift part was a good example of that but I didn't (don't) feel it addresses the whole issue. A problem with an event that starts with a fixed weight is that if you just plain can't lift it - you get a zero for it. Another way might be a rising bar FH where you hold increasingly heavy weights for a certain time frame with a short ROM to get started. At least weaker guys wouldn't blank the event and stronger guys wouldn't have an upper limit either. A good answer - perhaps not but maybe a more fair way to approach it. I generally like and do well in hold for time events - and certainly don't want them to go away but I hope we might agree that the idea is not to start the event in such a way as to blank out people on the event. An example - time is 10 seconds - I call 400# - hold it for 10 sec - good lift. Rex calls 600# - holds for 10 - he wins. Scoring is now 10 for Rex 6.6 for me. Three attempts - sound reasonable? This is just one way in which we might make it more fair for all - I'm sure other creative solutions are possible as well. This wouldn't put any upper limit on the test for the big boys (or strong little boys) also. This could lead to some very impressive weights being lifted while allowing lesser mortals to compete as well. Many people choose weather or not to attend a contest by their ability to do the events - if we can find a way to let them be successful at their own level - it might help. Even strongman doesn't only have one huge stone where you lift it or fail totally. What think you all?

I think your solution at the end here is intelligent and practical. There has been an undeniable elitist tone in my writings, something I cannot really help, and I admire the fact that you haven't attacked that tone and diverted attention from the main issue.

Thanks - after we all rant a bit - we still need to try and find workable solutions. Oh - the "elitist" can buy the first round as penance

I suppose I should explain my main motivation for advocating the FH and thick bar events. It has to do with risk. The more a person risks when it comes to strength feats, in my opinion, the more admirable he is. This is why competitors get more respect from me than YouTube heroes--they risk more. They do their lifts in front of witnesses. You can't fake anything at a competition. You either have the strength or you don't.

We are talking about those people who actually do take the risk of entering competition. My main purpose in competitions in to place as well as possible. To me I reserve the "risks" to feats of strength and my climbing (plenty of risk there) - which I don't post on Utube but do in front of witnesses for my proof if it something I even care if others know about. I see two kinds of risk here - that of embarrassment and that of physical injury trying to do something I don't usually train for

Another way to increase risk is to prove yourself on events that are widely known. There are all sorts of YouTube heroes out there who perform feats that nobody has ever done and probably won't ever do. Therefore, there is no basis for comparison. The stronger the basis for comparison, the more you risk. The more respect you deserve. That's why a RT max is more impressive than a 200# lift on some weird home-made thick bar that nobody has ever used. There's a strong basis for comparison for the RT. Even Westside guys use the RT to train, and they know about as much about grip as they know about deadlifting.

I can buy this one to a point - but only to a point. I do Olympic Lifting and I can't see trying to earn their respect by comparing my Axle C&J to that. I try to earn the respect of Olympic lifters by doing the Olympic lifts in their comps. I feel the same way about strongman - to earn their respect - I would choose to enter their contests and thereby generate respect - or not - as the case may be.

Another way to increase risk is to compare yourself to a strong pool of competitors. Right now, the best known strength sport involving lots of grip is strongman. So, given the above, it seems that the best way to increase risk is to compare ourselves to strongmen using widely known events. Thick bar and FH are two widely known events that are regularly a part of strongman competitions. So I think these events should be included in grip contests. Including them is risky. It's ballsy. It's admirable.

Thick bar events are a part of almost every grip contest I have been to - either some form of Axle - RT - or fat dumbbell lifts. I don't follow Strongman closely but I see more Farmers Walks than Holds which makes sense as they want a total body test as much if not more so than a grip test.

But you have the Hand-Size-Objectors and the Body-Strength-Objectors trying their hardest to get rid of these events, and thereby reducing the risk. I don't want the risk to be reduced. I want it increased.

Well I guess I fall into both camps above. Even Strongman has a light and heavy weight division - which is all I'm asking for as well. The weights used there do vary in an attempt to provide a better contest for all. I have no problems with the risk of being embarrassed but I do have a problem with risking injury trying to be a Strongman when I entered a Grip Contest. Consider it like Strongman - the lightweights do a 500# FW and the heavies a 600# one. Or some other way like I discussed with a rising bar format for FH.

So this is what motivates me. I'm not trying to pick those events that suit me and other "300 pound monsters". I just want high-risk events. If grippers and 2HP were regularly a part of strongman competitions, then I'd be advocating their inclusion in grip contests. But the truth is that most strength athletes have never even seen a 2HP set-up, or a V-bar, or any of the other obscure devices of the grip world. And that's why relying solely on such devices is not a good idea if you are sympathetic to my way of thinking.

Rex I do Highland Games - I do Olympic Lifting - I do Grip -I do climbing comps - and I did a little Strongman in the past. I don't try to look at it from the aspect of trying to earn the respect of a Strongman competitor by doing any of the other types of competitions so why would I try to impress the Strongman guys by playing the totally different game called Grip.

-Rex

[cemery]

Alot of well explained, well thought out points in this thread. I really enjoy reading this. And what I really like about this thread is that it has stayed a discussion, not and argument.

I have to point out that several sports are specific in design. Just like chess comps, they play chess. There are probable checkers players that would be great at chess, but the chess comps have remained chess comps. To me straying to far from pure wrist and hand strength is going in a different direction. I know there are tons of views about what exsactly is " pure " hand and wrist strength events but you cant please everybody. I have no doubt that the grip of the strongman competitor is impressive to say the least, no argument there. And I appreciate Rex's desire to raise the bar and get creative. But to try and change the sport of grip and the contests to draw in competitors from different sports, well I dont know. And as for "regular " grip events being boring, and to change them to be exciting, I love new way's to test my grip and I'm all for creative ideas to bring the spark back. I think if we still want to call this a "grip" contest however, the new events should test grip more that anything else. That being said, no matter the future of the events, I will attend every grip comp I can, because of course I WANT to win, but I even more so want to learn and grow as a competitor.

[climber511]

I see Rex's point as friendly one...and I see and acknowledge everyone's point on the hand size issue...because it makes A LOT of sense. Big hands cover more surface area on the bar and aid in the lift no doubt. I too would like to see more new events that the audience would enjoy...like the HH at BBB with the cars (way cool). Maybe the FW with different diameter bar selection like some already have...to make it more fair. Kind of like having selections on the 2hp. Lets say if your hand is over 8.0 you have to use a thicker handle and under a smaller handle...and put time against time...that might be more fair...and have the handles high enough to offset the leg/back power.

This is the kind of thought process I like and hoped for when I started this whole thing - creating solutions to the problems facing us that make sense and offer a better degree of fairness - will one idea prove out better than another - no doubt - but I think trying to create a more level playing field is a good thing.

Kind of off topic though...in 2003 I could not close the #3 or pick up a blob, 45 hub, anvil, barely 2 25's, and 170ish on the RT, and could not bend the blue nail(seriously no joke). I was at a point where I could settle or turn it up and bring up my weaknesses...so I got my butt to work and never looked back...I know that my hands are still the same size as they were then...but grabbing that VERY narrow 45# hub was a challenge for me with Big Hands...but I did not let it stop me in my pursuit.

But you are "The CHAD" I know where you are coming from and I think many of us are trying our best to do just what you did - with varying amounts of success.

Just my thoughts

Chad

[cemery]

Want to brainstorm some solutions so here it goes... A farmerswalk event where the competitor carries his or her bodyweight in each hand instead of a set lb for distance. Sound more fair ?

[barbe705]

sounds better but not perfect. there isn't a direct linear relationship between body weight and strength.

Want to brainstorm some solutions so here it goes... A farmerswalk event where the competitor carries his or her bodyweight in each hand instead of a set lb for distance. Sound more fair ?

[lifesnotfair]

Arturo, the WR one hand OLY bar deadlift is more than I can pull with 2 hands atm.

Using a hook grip, it is. But I believe the record without a hook grip is like 151kg.

This lift was used in a contest, I think earlier this year or last year, with NO hook grip, and I think only around 2 guys got 300lbs. I could be wrong though. It's a test of grip strength and not thumb-pain-tolerance, so no hook grip. I said no hook grip in my post

[climber511]

Want to brainstorm some solutions so here it goes... A farmerswalk event where the competitor carries his or her bodyweight in each hand instead of a set lb for distance. Sound more fair ?

One problem I foresee is doing that in my garage in December with 30 people in the way

[Incindium]

Anytime you bring BWT into it you aren't making things more fair just moving the unfairness to the big guys rather than the little guys.

[Incindium]

Someone threw out Hercules Hold as being fair but it was argued that the setup isn't common or easily contested.

So why not go at it from another angle. Do a farmers hold where the weight starts above your hand level and you can get a grip on it but then the weight is let into your hands so you are then supporting all of it. That would make it a true test of supporting hand strength like Hercules hold and yet be done with the Farmers Handles. I'm sure hydraulic jacks could be setup to do that pretty easily.

[cemery]

Someone threw out Hercules Hold as being fair but it was argued that the setup isn't common or easily contested.

So why not go at it from another angle. Do a farmers hold where the weight starts above your hand level and you can get a grip on it but then the weight is let into your hands so you are then supporting all of it. That would make it a true test of supporting hand strength like Hercules hold and yet be done with the Farmers Handles. I'm sure hydraulic jacks could be setup to do that pretty easily.

That sounds like a better idea.

[lifesnotfair]

How about this event at a GRIP contest.

One arm hang for time. No weight added. Just hang from a 1" bar with your feet in the air. Also, set the bar at a height that people over 6 feet need to tuck their knees a little to stay off the ground.

[verdigriz]

From one of Zachs posts....

''Guys, lets be real about this. As Bob said, the purest tests of grip strength are BOOOOOOOOOOOORING. If anybody has room to complain about snall hands, etc, I do. I'm 185lbs with 7.25" hands, I'm itsy bitsy compared to the big guys. Yet you'll have a hard time finding someone more against hand size divisions as myself. Is it any coincidence that Jedd is a strongman competitor, Josh is a damn good armwrestler, Dave is a fantastic lifter, Bob is a 440 raw bencher, Aaron has benched 550 raw in the past and is working towards 400 now, Ryan Klein pulls 800, John Beatty pulls 800, Eric Milfeld pulls 578@181, Chad is a strongman competitor, etc etc etc and they keep coimng in the top 5 in contests? You may not like it, but overall body strength is tested in any grip contest no matter the events. I'm all for fairness now, but contests that test ONLY grip will be boring for competitors and spectators and the sport will die. I'm looking at this from a "what about the future" perspective. Let's be serious, if I can pick 300 per hand, there have to be several dozen guys on here who can do it if the ROM was the same. When I did that, my best ever squat was 275 and I hadn't squatted in months, maybe even a year and my best pull was 420. If 420 puts me at the top tier of grip guys my size and age... ''

Hmm what are these pure tests of grip?

Grippers have to be one of the purest tests of crushing strength, pinching plates (the euro being the evolved set up) must be one of the purest forms of pinching strength, sledges or weaver must be one of the purest forms of wrist strenth (in that plane), hub lifting im sure is quite unique and not dependant on body size or hand size imo, one arm deads/vbar have been around for some time and are a great display of hand strength, I believe the record for one arm deads is in the 150'skg so nothing about back issues there...

My point (very long winded I know) is that all of those lifts I mentioned are ''pure'' tests of lower arm strength (imo), if those are considered boring then promoters get rid of them!

[MalachiMcMullen]

From one of Zachs posts....

Actually, lifting anything off the ground requires body strength if you want to get technical(I did). I can absolutely garuantee that there are people on here right now that couldn't lift 350lbs 2" off the ground with one hand if they had straps. So their arguement would be that they could never be competitive in 1" Vbar because they don't feel the need to train for full body power. An even that tests ONLY grip would be something where only the hand and arm need be contracted. Grippers don't count then since the entire body is contracted HARD. I believe Ben Edwards told me in an unrelated issue that doing grippers messes with his shoulders enough that his bending could be compromised. Dyno's are a pure test of hand strength, but they're boring as paint drying to watch. What if you had someone who couldn't lift 50lbs off the ground with one hand? They'd argue the blob is impossible for them physically. Any event that tests "purely" grip strength would end up being the same as grippers to watch, boring. I like grippers, but 5-6 events that are just as exciting as grippers would be a contest I wouldnt' want to compete in. Body strength comes in in EVERY grip lift. Those who have more of it do better. That's not a linear relationship of course(body strength to grip contest placing) but the fact remains the same.

Is it so wierd and off the wall to say that being able to pull 400, squat 400 and bench 300 will automatically give you an edge over someone who doesn't lift weights? Anyone who wants to use their lightweight as an excuse has to first look at guys like Derek and Odin. Though both are working on it, neither weighs more than 170 after dinner and yet they are consistently competitive against the average top 10 guys.

A good measure of body strength is involved in all the popular grip lifts: Vbar, 2HP, grippers, axle, HH, bending, pinch, one hand lifts, etc.

That is not the point of the topic though. The point was, when does it become a test of body strength before grip? That is a question each person has to ask themselves. As I said in post #2 of this thread, classes will eventually nullify this entire arguement. Until that time, you can either enter a competition and deal with what the promoter offers at their contest, or you can sit at home and not enjoy a great time with great people who have similar interests.

Let's turn this whole debate into a "When will classes come in?" debate instead. In fact, I'll start a thread.

[climber511]

Zach - classes in grip comps starts Dec 13th - 2008 in Crooksville, Ohio. And so it begins

[verdigriz]

what contitutes a grip comp imo? Doing lifts where in the majority of cases (leaving room for the x factor) the grip/lower arm is taxed before the rest of the body..and those lifts that I mentioned fit into that definition. Whats boring and whats not? well thats a personal thing. I find farmers walks/holds boring but HH not boring (to watch as I have never done them). I find axle boring but bending not boring to watch and do. If the farmers were on racks almost at full lockout then that would be grip...if you had to deadlift them from low and even walk with them then thats not solely grip obviously. And yes at the end of the day, you have to put up with whatever the prom wants to put in and I hope theres alot of positives from the weight class trial coming up

Edited October 10, 2008 by verdigriz

[The Mac]

I don't think weight classes will address the most important factor in this discussion - as the sport evolves (and weights get heavier) there will be people - of any weight - who will not have bodystrength to match their handstrength and so will not support (literally and figuratively) an event like a very heavy farmers hold, regardless of what that weight will be for their "class".

[Booyah!!!]

Hey, how about an over 50 Geezer class 600lbs would most likely cripple me. Compressed or slipped or fractured disks.

[The Natural]

At root, we have essentially two groups in this discussion.

Group #1: Let's call them "the good Christians". They don't want to see anybody left out. They are scared to death of anybody bombing out on a event due to lack of body strength. They want everyone to join in. They would make good birthday hosts, good fathers, good neighbors, etc. They cry when they watch Homeward Bound.

Group #2: Let's call them "the Darwinists". They want evolution to take its course. The weak die off and the strong survive. They listen to George Thorogood. They make good soldiers and even better concert security. They laugh when they watch Scarface.

I belong to Group #2. Most of the folks here seem to belong to #1.

(laughing so hard that pale ale comes out of my nose).

-Rex

[verdigriz]

Maybe you should see axle anon

[matthcarl]

Imagine two contests of three events each

#1:

- Axle DL

- Farmer's Hold

- Blobs

#2:

- MMS grippers

- Bending

- Hub lift

I wold get my butt kicked in both competitions, but in the second comp I would only get my butt kicked by guys who train grip. In the first, any bigger or stronger person would win. That's the bottom line for me.

[climber511]

Gone rock climbing! Be back soon.

[Hubgeezer]

At root, we have essentially two groups in this discussion.

I belong to Group #2. Most of the folks here seem to belong to #1.

(laughing so hard that pale ale comes out of my nose).

-Rex

I thought about it. I think I am a Compassionate Darwinist