Contest Thoughts

[climber511]

I'm a reforming a..hole trying to build up good karma for my final days

[Bob Lipinski]

You don't get it Rex!

Hold your own contest in a very sparsely competed sport. Enjoy the 2-3 people that show up. Next year enjoy even fewer people because no one wants to go to a contest where nobody is there.

The contest will be even more fun because nobody will sponsor a contest with hardly any participants. And good luck making the contest nice without hardly any entry fees!

If you want to see a sport die, cut off the grassroots organization. In our game, there is barely enough participation to make a good nationals with qualifying standards. We are getting there, but aren't there yet. The people who will pay the way for your heavy contests are the ones who want to cut out. Check out powerlifting- I go to many local contests with 20-50 competitors, and maybe only one guy is national level.

Yep, pure Darwinism, we would weed the sport right out of existance.

[GetAGrip87]

rex is my hero lol

Rex is NOT my hero.

[jad]

Regarding grip contests; "strong" is largely dictated by event selection. Event selection would determine which "camp" a lot of us fall into.

[bencrush]

Regarding grip contests; "strong" is largely dictated by event selection. Event selection would determine which "camp" a lot of us fall into.

Oh how true. 1" vbar and I'll be right up there. 2HP and I'll be with the first timers. DO bending I'll be up there. Reverse bending I can't do anymore, so again I'd be with the newcomers.

[dthor]

Rex asks for a farmers hold with 300# per hand as a possible event.

This isn't going to make me any more friends, however.

I don't see the problem with this. We shouldn't be afraid to do strongman type events that are grip related. The handle height can be adjusted. Train the event prior, and step up and give it a try. If a guy can't pick up the 300#, drop the weight down for the next flight. It's only one event out of 5 or 6. If everyone hates it, the event won't last. Lifting and grip training should be strongly connected anyway. Strongman competitors could also relate to it a lot more than most of our events. It is probably not anymore dangerous than some of our other events like bending , v-bar, axle, Heavy 1 Hand Lifts, etc.

[The Natural]

You don't get it Rex!

Hold your own contest in a very sparsely competed sport. Enjoy the 2-3 people that show up. Next year enjoy even fewer people because no one wants to go to a contest where nobody is there.

The contest will be even more fun because nobody will sponsor a contest with hardly any participants. And good luck making the contest nice without hardly any entry fees!

If you want to see a sport die, cut off the grassroots organization. In our game, there is barely enough participation to make a good nationals with qualifying standards. We are getting there, but aren't there yet. The people who will pay the way for your heavy contests are the ones who want to cut out. Check out powerlifting- I go to many local contests with 20-50 competitors, and maybe only one guy is national level.

Yep, pure Darwinism, we would weed the sport right out of existance.

I think we're approaching this from two different and diverging perspectives.

From a promoter's standpoint, it is obviously good to cater to the mob's preferences, as the masses surely do 'vote with their dollar'. But the over-riding goal for the promoter is the maximization of athlete satisfaction and enjoyment. But what is most enjoyable to the most athletes is not always (rarely?) the best when it comes to testing some skill or another (Can you imagine the effect this mob-rule policy would have if applied to other sports?). My over-riding goal is to select those events that give the most credibility to our claims to great grip strength. I want the grip community to be able to say "We have the strongest grips out there", and when someone dissents (a haughty strongman, e.g.), we have the evidence based on our contest results to grind his face into the undeniable truth.

So yes. From the promoter's stand-point, a think-handled monkey bar event (You fall in the baby pool if your grip slips!) may produce un-ending backyard entertainment. Gripsters may come from distant lands to participate. But it is not, and never will be, a respectable measure of grip strength.

-Rex

[The Natural]

Strongman competitors could also relate to it a lot more than most of our events.

Now there's a thought! Word.

-Rex

[MalachiMcMullen]

So yes. From the promoter's stand-point, a think-handled monkey bar event (You fall in the baby pool if your grip slips!) may produce un-ending backyard entertainment. Gripsters may come from distant lands to participate. But it is not, and never will be, a respectable measure of grip strength.

-Rex

For your information Rex, I happen to like Ninja Warrior

Anyway, Dave has echoed my thoughts. You have time to train for the event and I'm telling you right now guys, something like 300 per hand is VERY possible for everyone here that has spoke of concerns. Even you Chris I completely understand the risk factor. I also understand that the risk of tearing muscles in your shoulders with 300 per hand is about as slim as slipping a disk during the axle deadlift. I believe this issue has already been addressed as well. Just have varying weights if competitors failing to start could be an issue.

Bottom line, many of you guys are too damned modest!!! Anyone with any kind of lifting background has a chance at HOLDING 300 per hand for a second or two. They have as much a chance at a 300/hand FH as many competitors did in the crazy heavy HH at BBB4(once again John, KEEP IT THAT HEAVY AND USE IT AGAIN!!!!). The average time on that was less than 8 seconds. I believe, and one competitor couldn't hold the weight at all. No one complained and in fact, almost everyone wanted another go!!!

[John Beatty]

At root, we have essentially two groups in this discussion.

Group #1: Let's call them "the good Christians". They don't want to see anybody left out. They are scared to death of anybody bombing out on a event due to lack of body strength. They want everyone to join in. They would make good birthday hosts, good fathers, good neighbors, etc. They cry when they watch Homeward Bound.

Group #2: Let's call them "the Darwinists". They want evolution to take its course. The weak die off and the strong survive. They listen to George Thorogood. They make good soldiers and even better concert security. They laugh when they watch Scarface.

I belong to Group #2. Most of the folks here seem to belong to #1.

(laughing so hard that pale ale comes out of my nose).

-Rex

I'm all for strength contests, these are a bit different from purely Grip comps. I've done between 30-40 Strongman comps over the last 11 years, the majority of those were pro shows. Set one world record in pro Strongman, a bunch of state & a national record in PL, beaten some big name guys in Strongman, as a smaller guy in the land of giants. I've been the "Strong". Pretty much still am. Grip contests test the hands & lower arms by definition. If it's a strongman/grip combo meet, then fine. The point people are trying to make from a promoter's side, is probably half the guys in grip aren't training for bulk and full body strength. As Bob clearly pointed out, you go too heavy, you run the bulk of guys out, maybe not immediately, but eventually. Nobody wants to pay an entry fee, then bomb 3-4 of 5-6 events. Then your meet attendance plummets. The sport shrinks, or splits into federations. Our sport is too small to be split. Again I'm all for heavy events, but only promoted as such, let those that train that way attend, and those that don't won't come. Generally these are called Strongman comps. Guys will bomb, but if too many do, you lose people. The "strong survive" applies to sports as a whole, too. Basically, I'm really more into keeping guys involved & bringing new folks in. Make the show challenging & fun, but keep the injury risk as low as possible. 300 in each hand that doesn't have to be picked up isn't horrible, if you can access some pallet jacks, or a hydraulic car lift.

And...I started listening to Thorogood in HS, 25 years ago. I bounced & bartended for 13 years. Generally didn't have to throw people out, just had to point. Never minded dragging/carrying them out, though. I don't cry in movies....

Edited October 11, 2008 by John Beatty

[jad]

Rex asks for a farmers hold with 300# per hand as a possible event.

This isn't going to make me any more friends, however.

I don't see the problem with this. We shouldn't be afraid to do strongman type events that are grip related. The handle height can be adjusted. Train the event prior, and step up and give it a try. If a guy can't pick up the 300#, drop the weight down for the next flight. It's only one event out of 5 or 6. If everyone hates it, the event won't last. Lifting and grip training should be strongly connected anyway. Strongman competitors could also relate to it a lot more than most of our events. It is probably not anymore dangerous than some of our other events like bending , v-bar, axle, Heavy 1 Hand Lifts, etc.

Hey Dave, glad to see your input buddy! Regarding the bolded print: Why is this a concern or issue? Cross-sport participation is good for grip but we shouldn't cater events to them. If they like it great, if they don't, they can stay home.

[dthor]

Strongman competitors could also relate to it a lot more than most of our events.

Why is this a concern or issue?

You're right Josh, it's not a huge concern to me. However if they are doing farmers walk with 300#, we should be willing to do a limited DL and Hold with the same weight.

A 1 3/8" handle would make it a bit more of a grip event, and still leave most of the hand size issue out of the equation.

[The Mac]

However if they are doing farmers walk with 300#, we should be willing to do a limited DL and Hold with the same weight.

This is a point that bears some consideration, regardless of any class division, bodysize/strength, hand size arguments etc.

[The Natural]

Grip contests test the hands & lower arms by definition. If it's a strongman/grip combo meet, then fine. The point people are trying to make from a promoter's side, is probably half the guys in grip aren't training for bulk and full body strength.

John,

I respect your strength background and all, but there seems to be a clear contradiction between your reasoning and your actions. You say that grip contests should test grip and grip only (you go even further and say this is true 'by definition'). And yet you promote the BBB, which involves an event--bending--that tests upper body strength far more than it tests grip. This is especially so since it is DO bending, with liberal restrictions on what wraps can be used.

And yet here you are objecting to a farmer's hold (at least when the lifter has to do some legwork in picking it up). You object even when this is an event that tests more grip than it does anything else (unlike bending).

So let's treat like cases alike. Imagine that bending is being discussed as a possible new event in grip competitions. But then some people object to its inclusion, saying that "I think my pecs--I have torn one of them--would give out before my grip does". "I think my biceps would give out before my grip does". "I don't train for upper body strength or bulk. I just train for grip. You're making the contests biased against those who don't train for full body strength."

If people are going to allow the sort of arguments against the FH to pass, then they must surely allow these arguments to pass also. There is no difference between the cases. In the FH we are dealing with lower body strength and in the case of bending we are dealing with upper body strength. But this is not a theoretically important difference.

Nearly everyone who has contributed to this thread has contradicted himself, even if not explicitly, in the way I just described. People object to the FH but turn a blind eye towards bending.

To everyone: Either omit DO bending from future grip contests, or permit the FH and other events that involve full body strength. Or be a person who contradicts himself and does not deserve intellectual credibility. The choice is yours.

-Rex

Edited October 12, 2008 by The Natural

[matthcarl]

I disagree that DO bending is primarily a test of upper body strength.

I have no problem with FH.

[The Natural]

I disagree that DO bending is primarily a test of upper body strength.

I have no problem with FH.

Whether I am right on that or not is actually not relevant. The soundness of the argument is completely unaffected even if I weaken the claim to "DO bending significantly involves muscles other than those that are grip-specific". For those who care to do so, simply make the said modification and then evaluate the argument. It really makes no difference.

-Rex

Edited October 12, 2008 by The Natural

[MalachiMcMullen]

The arguements about total body strength and current events aren't what this thread was about. Chris raised a legitamate concern about 300lbs per hand and his "glass" lower back. Now, in a strongman comp or max weight pick competition, his concern would hold more clout. BUT, since, being a grip competition, the handles can be brought up to a lockout position and held there, there is very little chance he can't hold the weight for at least 1 second. EVERYONE likes lifting heavier weights. Heavier weights can help to speed up the competition too because the competitors wont be holding it as long.

Remember, often you get over 6 months notice of a competition. If you are intent on entering, TRAIN. I know the going trend is to not train and that may work for Eaton and the freaks(in a nice way), but it doesn't work for most of us. TRAIN the events as you should and you wont have troubles with weights come comp time. I couldn't pull much more than 400 when I picked 300 per hand, I'd be willing to bet MONEY on many of the concerned folks here being able to pick 300 per hand from a lockout height.

It's great to train grip, but, much like raw powerlifting, ONLY training bench wont help you bench the most. You'll have to squat if you really want more weight. Same with grip. Squat and your grip will improve. I promise.

[The Natural]

The arguements about total body strength and current events aren't what this thread was about.

Not true. From the thread opener...

Testing overall body strength or maybe a better way to express it would be – in a grip contest setting, should we design events (especially super heavy ones) in such a way that we minimize the limitation of overall body strength like Rex has tried to do here?

Now would anyone care to address my (airtight) argument?

-Rex

[Matt Brouse]

You guys are all sooo lame.

Haha.

[MalachiMcMullen]

The arguements about total body strength and current events aren't what this thread was about.

Not true. From the thread opener...

Testing overall body strength or maybe a better way to express it would be – in a grip contest setting, should we design events (especially super heavy ones) in such a way that we minimize the limitation of overall body strength like Rex has tried to do here?

Now would anyone care to address my (airtight) argument?

-Rex

Now Rex, you read well and pay attention. You know current events aren't involved in Chris's quote Besides, I agree with you on most points anyway

[Incindium]

It could be argued that grip contests should contain events that primarily tax the hands,arms, and upper body muscles(in that order) and only the lower body in a lesser supporting or transitory role. That definition would allow the bending but make the 300lb FW less valid since it would mean featuring the lower body in a more prominent role.

So does that sink your airtight argument?

Ultimately this thread just reminds me of this drawing/cartoon.

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/duty_calls.png

Edited October 12, 2008 by Incindium

[MalachiMcMullen]

It could be argued that grip contests should contain events that primarily tax the hands,arms, and upper body muscles(in that order) and only the lower body in a lesser supporting or transitory role. That definition would allow the bending but make the 300lb FW less valid since it would mean featuring the lower body in a more prominent role.

So does that sink your airtight argument?

Ultimately this thread just reminds me of this drawing/cartoon.

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/duty_calls.png

Hehe, well. Grip will become bigger and there will be a full US Grip Org in the next few years. Better to iron out this stuff now than on the fly.

[John Beatty]

Rex-

First a clarification, I suppose. Grip contests, by definition, test MAINLY grip strength. Outside of grippers, there's not a single event that doesn't use other muscles, to a large extent. So I suppose following the lines of your (airtight) argument to its most logical conclusion, we'd have to just drop almost everything but grippers. Vbar, axles (especially 2"), two handed pinches, Inch DB's, on & on test a lot more than just grip in the full body view.

Bending is certainly less of a grip/hand specific exercise, but is a strong test of both grip & wrist strength, and by my last quote, grip tests the hands and lower arms. If your hands are weak on a tough bend, it will slip, shift & come loose. If you have weak wrists and hands, stick to grade 2's. Are the best benders the massive, superpowered 300+ guys with huge benches? No. Too much chest & arm bulk limit positioning & the "crank" with the hands/wrists to start the bend. The chest really comes in on the crush, so I suppose truer test of grip for bending would stop at 90 degrees.

I've got nothing against a heavy Farmer's personally, I think you misunderstand my posts. I just believe you should limit the strain to the back on the pickup. To the older guys, the youngest guys, lighter guys, and guys with injuries, 300 in each hand is a big deal, mainly if you train grip much harder than full body strength, meaning your grip is better than your back. If you've ever done a car hold for time, the back takes a beating, regardless of the lack of movement. My stand is more a safety issue over all else. If you limit thr ROM on the pickup, you limit the risk. I view it as a promoter, too, discouraging competitors from taking part in meets is a bad thing. If you want an event badly, it's your meet, do what you will & good luck to you.

[The Natural]

Rex-

First a clarification, I suppose. Grip contests, by definition, test MAINLY grip strength.

I agree.

Bending is certainly less of a grip/hand specific exercise, but is a strong test of both grip & wrist strength

I'll grant this.

I've got nothing against a heavy Farmer's personally, I think you misunderstand my posts. I just believe you should limit the strain to the back on the pickup. To the older guys, the youngest guys, lighter guys, and guys with injuries, 300 in each hand is a big deal, mainly if you train grip much harder than full body strength, meaning your grip is better than your back. If you've ever done a car hold for time, the back takes a beating, regardless of the lack of movement. My stand is more a safety issue over all else. If you limit thr ROM on the pickup, you limit the risk. I view it as a promoter, too, discouraging competitors from taking part in meets is a bad thing. If you want an event badly, it's your meet, do what you will & good luck to you.

I agree that one should limit the range of motion of the FH, as it is a safety risk to those whose full-body strength is not adequate. In fact, I suggested this at the outset.

However, I still don't think anyone has addressed the dilemma (from what you just said, it seems you aren't vulnerable to it). To repeat the dilemma:

1) Either we can include events that put lots of stress on areas of the body other than the hands and forearms, or we can exclude them.

2) If we decide to include them, the farmer's hold is acceptable as an event. In this case, the Body-Strength Objectors lose.

3) If we decide to exclude them, then DO bending is not acceptable as an event.

4) So either DO bending can stay and the farmer's hold can be added to future contests, or both DO bending and the farmer's hold should be excluded from future contests.

The double-standard is going to die one way or the other.

-Rex

[The Natural]

It could be argued that grip contests should contain events that primarily tax the hands,arms, and upper body muscles(in that order) and only the lower body in a lesser supporting or transitory role. That definition would allow the bending but make the 300lb FW less valid since it would mean featuring the lower body in a more prominent role.

Unfortunately there is no reason to order things in the way you have. For most grip events, the legs play a bigger role than the upper body (axle, 2HP, medleys, RT, V-bar).

So does that sink your airtight argument?

No.

Ultimately this thread just reminds me of this drawing/cartoon.

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/duty_calls.png

The "I'm too cool for Internet arguments" view always seems to be held by those who are losing the arguments. Those who are winning want to keep winning.

-Rex