Contest Thoughts

[lifesnotfair]

If you don't mind the opinion of a noob who has never competed...

With bending, a guy with "overall weak body" will at least be able to bend a coathanger or easy nail, wouldn't he? I mean, there are many different levels of nails in contests, aren't there?

With having to hold 600# for time, the same guy might have no chance in a contest.

[vikingsrule92]

If you don't mind the opinion of a noob who has never competed...

With bending, a guy with "overall weak body" will at least be able to bend a coathanger or easy nail, wouldn't he? I mean, there are many different levels of nails in contests, aren't there?

With having to hold 600# for time, the same guy might have no chance in a contest.

Well said and very true, but that's not the argument that Rex has switched to as of late. He likes to switch things up to keep us on our toes

[barbe705]

The "I'm too cool for Internet arguments" view always seems to be held by those who are losing the arguments. Those who are winning want to keep winning.

-Rex

Rex,

I don't think you're winning. I also think your approaching this as a win lose situation, it isn't. the spirit of the original post was a discussion about heavy events place in grip and if these events could be customized to make them more palatable to the grip community. You have addressed the second point with the use of variable height FW handles. I think the only argument that has been made for the first point is that some events provide a better comparison to strongman.

While the farmers hold would be a direct comparison I'm not sure that too many people care.

I think, as several people have pointed out, that a farmers hold from a high height is shockingly easy. The first time I did a farmers walk I was surprised by how easy it was to pick the implements up. I also think that as Dave pointed out a slightly thicker handle would make a big difference in the event.

I don't understand what the argument is really about. It's not like people are going to see the wisdom of your argument and include farmers hold in every comp. if you want it in a grip comp so badly, host one. Let people try it out and give feedback on the forum. In my mind this is what happened with the 1" v-bar being replaced by the 2". It's possible that if this comp did take place people would like the event. Or, they might sorta like the event and make changes which could result in a standard event.

As for grip events that tax the whole body. I think the spirit of the sport is that grip should be te limiting factor in an event. And I said "spirit" very specifically. you can name events that might fall outside of that definition but, the spirit of the sport overall is a test of hand strength.

Like I said above, if you want to prove your point that badly, hold a comp and let the people decide.

brent

[MalachiMcMullen]

I will do my best to have 300 per hand FW implements available at my contest for anyone to try after the comp. When everyone and their powerlifting great aunt lift them, it will open eyes

[acorn]

Rex here is a compromise. we will do both farmers and bending at my comp. to make the weight on the farmers implements less of an issue they will have revolving thicker handles similiar to a RT but not as big a diameter. This way it will test grip more and my back less.

- Aaron

[bencrush]

It isn't all cut and dried for sure. Any grip contest is going to involve some effort from other body parts, unless it's a full dyno and grippers contest. And that would bore anyone to death. Including the competitors.

I'm one of those competitors who decides whether to go to a contest by seeing if any of the events will really light up any past injuries. Reverse bending will see me passing the contest. Tearing of any kind is usually a pass since it tweaks my old forearm strain. If there is an event contested that I think I'll get a big goose egg on...I'll probably skip the contest. I don't think I'm alone with this kind of thinking.

So promoters have got to balance their desire for a pool of competitors with their desire for certain events. I think it's a heck of a lot more fun in 2008 with the big selection of grip contests we have and the sometimes non-standard events being contested. Complete standardization will bring on morbid boredom for most guys. Mix it up a bit and guys will continue to have new goals to train for. New motivation for training hard and testing themselves against the best.

It's also just natural for a promoter to want to have events that suit them to a certain extent. Who wants to hold a grip contest and choose events that they totally suck at? Not me. So the promoters who are overall bodily strong will want more axle stuff, farmer's walk, etc. The guys like me who train 95% of the time specifically with grip lifts will want something that doesn't rely 50-50 on body strength. Bending, vbar, grippers, stuff like that.

I don't think it makes anyone in this argument right or wrong really. It's all good. We'll all still keep getting stronger and hopefully having fun in the process. Meeting up and testing ourselves against other guys will always be in vogue. I hope we can all just get along on this. No need to create divisions in the still very small world of grip.

[John Beatty]

Rex-

First a clarification, I suppose. Grip contests, by definition, test MAINLY grip strength.

I agree.

Bending is certainly less of a grip/hand specific exercise, but is a strong test of both grip & wrist strength

I'll grant this.

I've got nothing against a heavy Farmer's personally, I think you misunderstand my posts. I just believe you should limit the strain to the back on the pickup. To the older guys, the youngest guys, lighter guys, and guys with injuries, 300 in each hand is a big deal, mainly if you train grip much harder than full body strength, meaning your grip is better than your back. If you've ever done a car hold for time, the back takes a beating, regardless of the lack of movement. My stand is more a safety issue over all else. If you limit thr ROM on the pickup, you limit the risk. I view it as a promoter, too, discouraging competitors from taking part in meets is a bad thing. If you want an event badly, it's your meet, do what you will & good luck to you.

I agree that one should limit the range of motion of the FH, as it is a safety risk to those whose full-body strength is not adequate. In fact, I suggested this at the outset.

However, I still don't think anyone has addressed the dilemma (from what you just said, it seems you aren't vulnerable to it). To repeat the dilemma:

1) Either we can include events that put lots of stress on areas of the body other than the hands and forearms, or we can exclude them.

2) If we decide to include them, the farmer's hold is acceptable as an event. In this case, the Body-Strength Objectors lose.

3) If we decide to exclude them, then DO bending is not acceptable as an event.

4) So either DO bending can stay and the farmer's hold can be added to future contests, or both DO bending and the farmer's hold should be excluded from future contests.

The double-standard is going to die one way or the other.

-Rex

1) I've already stated that farmer's is acceptable. Just limit the pickup, as I've stated repeatedly. A short range pickup is easy. I a longer one is much harder & can eliminate guys in the lift part of the event, which is not a grip test.

2) As I said, also, if you want grip only events, then all comps will be grippers only. Body strength is necessary for almost every event, I'm just saying an event (such as a 300 lb each hand farmers) that's above the level of an average fairly strong guy, like many grip guys, then you need certain allowances for safety.

3) Not very valid, unless you exclude everything but grippers, herc hold. Everyone can bend something regardless of their level of strength. My 125lb wife can bend 3/16", My 4 year old son bends 1/8" round. Neither can lift 100lbs in each hand on farmers. My wife might be able to support it from lock, but couldn't pick it up, and she's very fit and athletic.

4) Not very valid either as you accept that bending is a strong test of the hands & wrists. And as I said, promoters can have what they want in a comp, my concern is mainly safety.

And yes, 300 Farmers to me isn't much, I did it every other weekend when we trained Strongman for 2 months prior to the BBB (and done comps with 330, 350, 365 before plenty of times), I've done 605 for 8 reps on a regular bar a number of times, so my scale, like yours I assume, is a bit different than the average gripster. I allow, though, that not everyone can do that, and scale my events as such, for both safety and to encourage competitors. Like medleys. My goal there is that most guys get through half the objects, and only a few should finish. If the first object is so hard that only 3-4 out of 15 get to object 2, then that's no good. I never intended to get this far into this argument, but it's a valid one for the most part. We just see it from different directions.

I certainly believe everyone should train for strength, but bulk & power just isn't everyone's goal. I've always wanted to be bigger & stronger, but some don't, some can't whether limited by genetics or injuries. Again, my argument boils down to the simple issue of safety.

[tja]

Rex here is a compromise. we will do both farmers and bending at my comp. to make the weight on the farmers implements less of an issue they will have revolving thicker handles similiar to a RT but not as big a diameter. This way it will test grip more and my back less.

- Aaron

I like this idea, 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 inch revolving handles and you could do FW as well. I'd like to try that out!

[acorn]

Rex here is a compromise. we will do both farmers and bending at my comp. to make the weight on the farmers implements less of an issue they will have revolving thicker handles similiar to a RT but not as big a diameter. This way it will test grip more and my back less.

- Aaron

I like this idea, 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 inch revolving handles and you could do FW as well. I'd like to try that out!

The handles we are using for the comp will be 1 7/8 so pretty close to that. Ton of fun even with my stubby fingers.

- Aaron

[Bob Lipinski]

Rex,

You conveniently ignore what I have stated a few times- Strongmen have entered grip comps. Beatty, Odd Haugen, and Tony Scrivens. You can check and see what they did.

A heavy event every now and then isn't going to kill us, but you'd better have a lighter alternative. Your participation will be shit. All sports are a market, and those with more interest and participation can afford to be more selective.

My gut feeling is that you would like grip contests include only what you are good at. Sure, I think grip contests should all include bench pressing (grip stabilizes!!!!), hammers, and grippers. Oh well. I have nothing against farmers walk as an event, and I might even take a crack at 600. I wouldn't want to get a superiority complex about though.

Here you go Rex, you wanna do something for the sport? Hold a comp. There you go. If people like your version, we might all head in that direction. There are 2 effective ways to shape the future of the sport:

1. Participate in comps with things that you enjoy

2. Hold your comp

You wanna talk darwinism, that is the way to get your ideas through the natural selection process!

[The Natural]

You conveniently ignore what I have stated a few times- Strongmen have entered grip comps. Beatty, Odd Haugen, and Tony Scrivens. You can check and see what they did.

Very few of them, and very infrequently. It should be obvious that this severely limits the value of the data points. Sometimes (rarely) powerlifters enter weightlifting competitions. If they didn't do so well, would you infer that powerlifters aren't good at the snatch and C&J? If they did well, would you infer that they are good at said lifts? I surely hope not. I'm assuming at least a rudimentary understanding of statistics.

A heavy event every now and then isn't going to kill us, but you'd better have a lighter alternative. Your participation will be shit. All sports are a market, and those with more interest and participation can afford to be more selective.

I agree that high-risk events may not draw a crowd. But like I said, that a grip event is enjoyable does not indicate that it best lends credibility to our claims to great grip strength.

My gut feeling is that you would like grip contests include only what you are good at.

This is not true. I am not good at the Axle DO deadlift, but I think it should be included as a standard event. This is because it is a high-risk event. A strong case could be made too that grippers are a high-risk event. Many thousands have been sold and most strength athletes, including pro strongmen, cannot close a #3 or above. I am not good at grippers either, though I would like to change that.

Here you go Rex, you wanna do something for the sport? Hold a comp. There you go. If people like your version, we might all head in that direction. There are 2 effective ways to shape the future of the sport:

1. Participate in comps with things that you enjoy

2. Hold your comp

You wanna talk darwinism, that is the way to get your ideas through the natural selection process!

The natural-selection you speak of is economic natural selection. That people enjoy an event X and are willing to spend money to compete in event X is no evidence-I repeat, no evidence--that event X is one that best lends credibility to our claims to great grip strength.

-Rex

[jad]

Very few of them, and very infrequently. It should be obvious that this severely limits the value of the data points. Sometimes (rarely) powerlifters enter weightlifting competitions. If they didn't do so well, would you infer that powerlifters aren't good at the snatch and C&J? If they did well, would you infer that they are good at said lifts? I surely hope not. I'm assuming at least a rudimentary understanding of statistics.

I would infer that those who entered were good or not good at snatch and C&J. What I would NOT do is infer that snatch and C&J are or aren't good measures of strength based off of the powerlifter's performance which is what you seem to want to do regarding strongmen and grip events. I would NOT include bench press or squat in olympic lifting to get more powerlifters to come out which again seems to be what you want to do with strongman and grip.

[The Natural]

I would infer that those who entered were good or not good at snatch and C&J. What I would NOT do is infer that snatch and C&J are or aren't good measures of strength based off of the powerlifter's performance which is what you seem to want to do regarding strongmen and grip events. I would NOT include bench press or squat in olympic lifting to get more powerlifters to come out which again seems to be what you want to do with strongman and grip.

It would not be good to infer that because the the snatch and the C&J are high-risk events (possibly the highest in all of strength sports). However, if the snatch and C&J were very low risk events, on the same level of risk as most grip-events, then things would be different. Suppose that were the case. Also suppose that both groups claimed to be testing a common ability (e.g. max-effort leg strength, or back strength). If this were the case, then it would be blameworthy if the weightlifters refused to test themselves on the squat or deadlift, saying that the heavy weights involved in both were too dangerous for the young, old, and inexperienced. They should feel obligated to establish a common measure and use an event from the high-risk sport.

Furthermore, the way you use the analogy I introduced (for a different purpose) is confusing and distracting, since powerlifting and weightlifting are not testing a common skill or ability. I counterfactually supposed that in the paragraph above, but in fact it is not the case. Grip and strongman, however, do test for a common ability--grip--and so it makes sense that the lower-risk sport of the two should feel obligated to prove itself to the higher-risk group, especially since the lower-risk group spends most of its time on just grip while the other group does not.

I now hesitate to introduce new material--new analogies, e.g.--into this discussion, as it just creates more confusion that I have to then clear up. People seem to be drawing attention to the irrelevant aspects of the analogy and away from the relevant aspects. Even this previous sentence may be siezed upon as a distraction from the dilemma I presented. Still nobody has addressed it. At some point one must take refusal to engage as a sign of acquiescence.

-Rex

Edited October 13, 2008 by The Natural

[Bob Lipinski]

Rex, you are really doing a semantic circle jerk here. The reason grip exists as a seperate discipline is because it tends to emphasize grip.

The dilemma is lame. DO Bending is gradually moving out of favor in many comps, and will continue to do so because it is not the best tester of grip strength. It hangs on as a grip event mainly out of tradition. Why do you think it isn't contested at the national championships anymore?

Grip strength will continue to have events that primarily test grip strength. The farmers walk is not used because not many seem to like it. Compare the best you have with what you got. If you really have a hardon for this, convince Woodall and Jedd to post a farmers walk vid.

[Bob Lipinski]

Damn, I knew the farmer's hold had been done in a contest before:

http://powerandbulk.com/Battle%20For%20Grip%20Supremacy.pdf

Tommy H lost out here because of bodystrength. Hard to say that he has a weak grip though.

[Booyah!!!]

Nice read Bob!!!!

[The Natural]

Rex, you are really doing a semantic circle jerk here. The reason grip exists as a seperate discipline is because it tends to emphasize grip.

I don't know what a "semantic circle jerk" is. Are you saying that I am using words improperly? Or are you saying that I am guilty of circular reasoning? Both?

And I obviously agree that "grip exists as a separate discipline because it tends to emphasize grip". That seems so obvious that I wonder why you felt the need state it.

The dilemma is lame. DO Bending is gradually moving out of favor in many comps, and will continue to do so because it is not the best tester of grip strength. It hangs on as a grip event mainly out of tradition. Why do you think it isn't contested at the national championships anymore?

The dilemma is aimed at the Body-Strength Objectors who object to the farmer's hold being included in grip contests, because it involves significant contribution from muscles other than those of the hands and forearms, but yet do not object to bending on the same grounds and who regard bending as an acceptable grip event.

You do not seem to object to the FH on the said grounds while permitting bending, and so the dilemma does not apply to you.

To anyone who has objected in this thread to the farmer's hold on body-strength grounds but not to bending on the same grounds (You can't hide guys! Do I need to start calling out names?)--Care to step up and bat?

Grip strength will continue to have events that primarily test grip strength. The farmers walk is not used because not many seem to like it. Compare the best you have with what you got. If you really have a hardon for this, convince Woodall and Jedd to post a farmers walk vid.

I am not advocating inclusion of the farmer's walk. I want the farmer's *hold* to be included. This is because the hold does not test as much full body strength as the walk.

While it would entertain me to see Jedd and Chad do the farmer's walk (or hold), it would not provide any support for my argument (or any of my opponents' arguments). Showing what two of the best in a sport can do does not in any way reflect what most of those involved in the sport can do. It is just as ineffective as John Beatty's idea of checking the performance records of the few strongmen who have competed in grip. To be high-risk, the data points need to be abundant. This way, we can have a representative batch of information about the grip community's performance with which to compare to the already rich data on how strongmen do at the FH.

Damn, I knew the farmer's hold had been done in a contest before:

http://powerandbulk.com/Battle%20For%20Grip%20Supremacy.pdf

Tommy H lost out here because of bodystrength. Hard to say that he has a weak grip though.

For those who don't care to dig...

The best time for the 310 pound FH in the contest Bob has linked to was 43.something seconds. (The average time was 27.7 seconds).

These are not great times. The lighter weight amateur strongmen at Chicago's Strongest Man are beating the top time by quite a bit, and they don't even train for grip specifically. Not a good sign. Bob, were you trying to shoot yourself in the foot?

Let me repeat guys: The evidence Bob just presented suggests (and we'd need more data to make a firmer judgment) just what I suspected: the strongmen are beating the grip guys at a grip event and they don't even train for grip specifically! This is not good!

-Rex

Edited October 13, 2008 by The Natural

[verdigriz]

The strongmen doing farmers dont train grip specifically? Of course they are not grip specialists, but some must at least train some grip? Grippers, RT? And lets not forget they do indeed, obviously enough train the Farmers walk...alot... compared to grip specific individuals. You keep on babbling on about DO bending being the glaring contradiction..get over it, everyone worth thier entry fee knows reverse or DU is more grip dependant than DO, its been stated many times, ive read it and im sure you have too. My personal opinion is that its included in comps cause its the easiest bending style to bend big once the technique is learnt...more of a sentimental residual method that will imo slowly die out of more ''official'' grip comps.

Take it or leave it the event selection of any comp will decide who spends the bling to come to a grip comp...in a general way..ie chad, jedd and the like will do ok anyways..

Its getting to the point where ignore on this topic and putting away my dictionary is fast approaching

[matthcarl]

The point about guys not training grip excelling at the FH seems to indicate to me it is not a good test of grip strength, but rather overall strength.

If you're trying to make a similar point about bending, fine, but one reason I like it is because it does not necessarily favor big guys.

[jad]

I would infer that those who entered were good or not good at snatch and C&J. What I would NOT do is infer that snatch and C&J are or aren't good measures of strength based off of the powerlifter's performance which is what you seem to want to do regarding strongmen and grip events. I would NOT include bench press or squat in olympic lifting to get more powerlifters to come out which again seems to be what you want to do with strongman and grip.

It would not be good to infer that because the the snatch and the C&J are high-risk events (possibly the highest in all of strength sports).

Why? O-lifting benchmarks are already established if the PL hits one of those, he's not good at OL because it's high risk? If he bombs out, we should still give him the benefit of the doubt regarding his OL abilities because it's high risk?

However, if the snatch and C&J were very low risk events, on the same level of risk as most grip-events, then things would be different. Suppose that were the case. Also suppose that both groups claimed to be testing a common ability (e.g. max-effort leg strength, or back strength). If this were the case, then it would be blameworthy if the weightlifters refused to test themselves on the squat or deadlift, saying that the heavy weights involved in both were too dangerous for the young, old, and inexperienced. They should feel obligated to establish a common measure and use an event from the high-risk sport.

I thought OL was rated at a higher risk than PL so by your logic shouldn't the PLers have to use a measure the OL deem worthy?

Furthermore, the way you use the analogy I introduced (for a different purpose) is confusing and distracting, since powerlifting and weightlifting are not testing a common skill or ability.

Neither are grip and strongman which is what most of this thread is about. Do some strongman events test grip? Sure. Do some grip events involve more than the hands and lower arms? Sure. However the two sports have completely different focuses and skill sets much like OL and PL. The leg and lowerback strength required to do both OL and PL puts those two much closer than grip and strongman.

I counterfactually supposed that in the paragraph above, but in fact it is not the case. Grip and strongman, however, do test for a common ability--grip--and so it makes sense that the lower-risk sport of the two should feel obligated to prove itself to the higher-risk group, especially since the lower-risk group spends most of its time on just grip while the other group does not.

Comparing strongman "grip events" to actual grip events is like saying that OLY high bar, narrow stance squats and the PL squats both test leg strength and PL, being the lower risk of the two, should be obligated to test OLY style squats in their meets. Do the two test leg strength? Yep. Are they the same? Not even close. Lumping them together off such a generalization is absurd. Cycling and long-distance running both test endurance I guess the cyclists should have to ditch the bikes and jog the last 10 mi in. Furthermore, we are the specialists and have nothing to prove to them in the grip arena. If they claim a great grip, they need to come to our contests and prove it.

I now hesitate to introduce new material--new analogies, e.g.--into this discussion, as it just creates more confusion that I have to then clear up. People seem to be drawing attention to the irrelevant aspects of the analogy and away from the relevant aspects. Even this previous sentence may be siezed upon as a distraction from the dilemma I presented. Still nobody has addressed it. At some point one must take refusal to engage as a sign of acquiescence.

I'm not a fan of DO bending and it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see it go away. That said, you don't have to train anything other than bending to be successful at but you could very well bomb out on a heavy farmers walk because you don't have the total bodystrength for it. I should not have to squat and DL to be successful at a grip event. All the upperbody power in the world won't help on bending if your hands and wrists are weak; you have to kink it to crush it. All the support grip in the world won't help on a farmers' walk/hold, if you don't have the leg/back strength to pick it up. A farmer's hold, assuming normal size handles, and a height/weight that would take bodystrength out/grip fails first, would be fine.

-Rex

[The Natural]

The strongmen doing farmers dont train grip specifically? Of course they are not grip specialists, but some must at least train some grip? Grippers, RT? And lets not forget they do indeed, obviously enough train the Farmers walk...alot... compared to grip specific individuals.

They don't train it exclusively like many gripsters do. It is not their main focus.

You keep on babbling on about DO bending being the glaring contradiction..get over it, everyone worth thier entry fee knows reverse or DU is more grip dependant than DO, its been stated many times, ive read it and im sure you have too.

That this fact is so obvious is a benefit of my argument (the dilemma), not a problem. Am I the only one here familiar with this sort of argument? It certainly seems that way.

Its getting to the point where ignore on this topic and putting away my dictionary is fast approaching

That you had to consult a dictionary to follow this thread explains much.

The point about guys not training grip excelling at the FH seems to indicate to me it is not a good test of grip strength, but rather overall strength.

Gentlemen, this is a perfect example of what is known in logic as biting the bullet.

-Rex

Edited October 13, 2008 by The Natural

[verdigriz]

Oh just one more post, just for the little people...

As I am the only ONE who can perceive the truth of the matter of this somewhat convoluted (not for me) procession of arbitrary and meaningless posts, let me lower myself once again and cometh forth from the intellectual heavens and giveth logic and reason to the heathenous masses (if that word does not exist it is because it is not of this earth!)

"They don't train it exclusively like many gripsters do. It is not their main focus."

That this is so obvious I cannot believe I am replying at all, it actually helps my argument like everything else written upon the earth.

"That you had to consult a dictionary to follow this thread explains much."

When I say ..my dictionary... I mean the dictionary I wrote, how could I be wrong? Once again this proves I am right!

"Gentlemen, this is a perfect example of what is known in logic as biting the bullet."

Once again this proves my argument is correct, cant anyone see the falseness of your arguments? In logic this is called my omni-ness, please take note.

NB

I think therefore I am.

Disclaimer...I am not responcible for anything I have written here nor the far reaching effects it may have upon the subconsciousminds of many, this was pure jest and not meant to offend many.

[lifesnotfair]

I don't know much, and I learned english through movies and the internet, so I am definitely not up to arguing anyone in here, specially seeing the quality of their writing

However, after reading the results for that contest, I found it funny, that the events went like this:

GRIPPERS - Tommy got first place, shutting a BB Elite for 8+ seconds. I think not even a year after this, Tommy certified on the #4, right? .. and Tommy was "Table No Setting" #3's with both hands at the same time since like 2002 (or so he told me once). There is a very old video of him doing this, so his left hand is up there too.

2 hands pinch - Tommy got 2nd place! 207# ... cool, big pinch, way over BW.

Bending - ohhhh, here he must've done really bad, since it involves massive upper body strength!! ... Oops, Tommy got 3rd place, beating guys MUCH bigger than him, and you would asume, overall stronger.

2.5 inch DB (handsize event!) - Still, Tommy got 5th with 155lbs, just 2.5# shy of Jedd's 157.5, and Jedd has a big hand and freakish thumb.

So, out of four events, he did awesome in all of them, and in the one he did awesome-but-not-top-three, was a fat 2.5 handle in which obviously the large handed have the advantage. And what was the final event?

310lbs farmer's hold for time! What place did he get? 10th! 5 seconds!! I wonder if the fact that he was like, what, 170#(??) Made any difference.

Just something to think about.

[The Natural]

Bending - ohhhh, here he must've done really bad, since it involves massive upper body strength!! ... Oops, Tommy got 3rd place, beating guys MUCH bigger than him, and you would asume, overall stronger.

I don't see how this is supposed to be a surprise to me or anyone else. The only way it could be a surprise is if it was assumed that Tommy Heslep did not have good upper body strength. Nothing I've said in this thread commits me to anything about the level of upper body strength that Mr. Heslep has. Furthermore, as John Beatty pointed out earlier, it is not a reasonable presumption that just because someone is bigger, he will do better at DO bending. DO bending is unusual in that often size hinders bending ability rather than aiding it. This is not a good argument, in short.

310lbs farmer's hold for time! What place did he get? 10th! 5 seconds!! I wonder if the fact that he was like, what, 170#(??) Made any difference.

It is not productive to speculate on why Mr. Heslep did poorly at the FH. Maybe he woke up that morning with a pain in his back. Maybe he was suffering from a knee or hip injury. To infer that his relatively low bodyweight is what made the difference is arbitrary and without support. This is especially so in light of the independent reasons we have for thinking that those in his bodyweight range can hold that kind of weight for extended periods. For example, the following are the FH times for the 200 and under BW competitors at the 2006 Chicago's Strongest Man. The weight used was 275 pounds. While lighter than 310, it still is close enough to make the point.

Open LW- 200's

Ted Collins-IN 49.12 sec

Chris Muir- OH 32.62 sec

Craig Kruse-IL 45.85 sec

John Albreicht-IN 40.50 sec

Chris Brocco- MI 16.03 sec

http://www.prowriststraps.com/chicago_stro...ent_competition

We can assume that these men, even though close to Tommy's BW, have no trouble holding heavy weight for long periods. If they can do it, then Tommy's case may be disregarded as an anomaly.

This emphasizes the point I've made many times already: it does no good to rely on the performance of a few as a basis for drawing conclusions. Let me draw this out a bit more:

1) It does no good to see how Jedd and Chad do at the FH and subsequently use that information to defend the overall ability of the wider grip community. They may be very good at this event while most others in the community may be very bad at it. If so, this would reflect poorly on the grip community.

2) It does no good to look at the performances of the few strongmen who have entered grip contests. They may have done very well, yet this would not tell us anything about the strongman community at large. Alternatively, they may have done poorly. Again, this would not tell us anything about strongmen as a whole.

3) It does no good to look at Tommy Heslep's performance on the FH and infer that it must not be a good test of grip strength. There are alternative explanations for his poor performance that have not been ruled out.

The only thing that makes any sense is to acquire more data about how gripsters do at the FH in competitive settings. Following my suggestion of putting the FH into more grip contests would allow us to acquire this data. And there are already abundant data on how strongmen do at this event, thereby making it high-risk. So we would have good information on both ends of the comparison. This would allow us to 'iron out' any distorting factors (bad back, hip injury, etc.) that can influence individual datums but not large bodies of data.

-Rex

Edited October 14, 2008 by The Natural

[Bob Lipinski]

This is just silly. The main limiting factor for the farmer's hold is upper back strength. Helsep does not have a weak grip by any stretch of the imagination. If your upper back strength isn't enough to support the weight well, your grip will give. No matter how strong it is.

If you want to make your point by picking one exercise, which limits many people by abilities other than grip, go ahead. The only way to settle this is for a strongman to enter a grip event. Anything else is conjecture.

Comparing one event is silly, but it is what you are trying to do. And again, an event that isn't limited by grip strength for everyone.

Here is my suggestion, which makes as much sense as yours- Since the deadlift tests grip strength, I say we put the deadlift in grip competitions. Then we will see who has a better grip, powerlifters or grip guys, right?