Contest Thoughts

[Bob Lipinski]

I would say overall I agree with Chris. I have been pretty sensitive to this in most of my grip events. For my rim deadlift hold at my contest, for example, I'll probably raise the plates a little.

You can't completely isolate the grip- First alot of the events would be boring (the dyno, the purest gripper test, does not sound fun), and also there is a certain amount of tradition. Bending and axle deadlifts are parts of our sport that are likely to stick around in one way or another for a while.

I'll always do my best to argue my points, but I think the market will decide. Chris and many other guys won't go to events that they don't like. Some heavy stuff every once in a while is fun- I am going to love Zach's contest- but I hope that such events are the exception rather than the rule. And I think they will be just by participation.

Like I wrote in another post, for a promoter to "sell" their event well, you need a little style. Beatty has got the oddball stuff, Chris has got the killer medleys, I've got Larkin's and a little more love for sledge hammers, etc. There is room for a contest like Zach's, but only so much.

A 500 pound deadlift isn't a world record unless you weigh under 100 pounds!

[verdigriz]

I think weight classes are required but not as diluted as say MMA or boxing divisions. Something along the lines of under 95kg and 95kg and over (just a random weight to illustrate the point) would be simple enough to impliment. Could even allow an overall winner if the winner was from the lighter division so it still gives the smaller guys the chance to have bragging rights over the monsters if they have a bad day Just some thoughts....

[The Natural]

Or you could do a Hercules Hold (witness jad's post, 2 above), an event that favors neither, as evidenced by both Chris (small/medium hand, non-500 DL) and Chad (huge hand, 500+DL) winning it.

Dilemma solved, no applause, just your money.

The thread on starting a DO Axle DL records list had over 50+ posts of argument about how to standardize the event. Sumo or conventional? IM axle or not? 2" or bigger? Calibrated plates or not? Seasoned axle or not?

Given the clear desire for standardization, do you really think a Hercules Hold will ever be common? How far apart should the pillars be? How far up the pillars should the handles be? Length of pillars? Gotta get exact on those pillar weights too. Handle width? Handle texture?

Given enough ingenuity, we can surely invent a way to "hand off" weight to people who are too weak to pick it up (even given a sub 1" ROM). But the trend seems to be towards standardization from contest to contest (I'm in favor of this). If the Body-Strength Objectors and the Hand-Size-Objectors want to cut off their nose to spite their face, the HH is one good way to do it.

-Rex

[Bob Lipinski]

C'mon Rex, we are all splitting hairs here. I think Josh knows the axle is around to stay. At the same time though, there is no way you can't say that it tests hand size almost as much as hand strength.

[verdigriz]

while its all been said in other places the biggest issues are with the back and legs failing a lift before the grip fails and hand size issues..

There are plenty of lifts that accommodate grips specialists (who dont squat or deadlift) firstly and grip specialists with sub 8inch hands..

Grippers MMS

1inch vbar most ppl can lift between 100kg and 140 and while taxing on the back, its the grip that fails first.

Weaver stick-very little weight used

Hublift-good luck with getting 40kg off the ground

card tearing

rim lifts

One hand dead-again the grip fails before the back

one hand and 2 hand pinch-both not extremely taxing on legs or back and adjustable if euro used

Rolling thunder-not the best 4 real small handed ppl but harden up abit you gotta have some thick bar!

Those are just a few off the top of my head so grip certainly doesnt have to enter strongman or become a hybrid of it, theres plenty of options...just for the record I do deadlift

[The Natural]

A few points:

1. Rex we've discussed this, bending will NEVER dissapear. It's been around since the mid 1800s and it's not going anywhere anytime soon.

The ACT shows no signs of disappearing either. And yet study after study proves that it is not a valid test of academic potential. That something will never go away is not a sign that it is good. (I think the last time I saw this form of argument was in a defense of slavery surveyed in a Southern lit. course)

Ben: Rep out with a trainer or #1 and you will find that it is very difficult to do regular pull-ups, carry the groceries inside, or even adjust the Lay-Z-Boy. Yet none of these are good tests of grip strength.

2. A 500# DL at my BW would be near, if not over the World Record, so ummm huh? And I've been trying to put on weight for months so don't bring that up at this juncture.

I deadlifted 465# in competition at your age and BW. With little training. It is not close to a World Record.

4. Chris you made a lot of very good points and I agree and like the point you made about us not all being lucky enough to get the genetics to easily become 300# of semi-lean muscle with 9" hands. Also just as a P.S. check your pm box

At Chicago's Strongest Man, the 305 farmer's hold was for the 231 and under class. Oh how the standards drop when one enters the grip world...

-Rex

[Matt Brouse]

Oh, boy...

[vikingsrule92]

Don't want to get in to this too much, I really don't.

I will say that I was exaggerating about the WR thing.

And I'm NOWHERE close to CHicago's strongest man so I don't see how that's even slightly valid. I'm 16 while most of them are 20-30, and 160 is a long way from 231. Plus I didn't say anything at all about the Farmers Walk, just that Chris had good points and that I wasn't given any genetic gifts. Again, doesn't have anything to do with the farmers walk.

[Hubgeezer]

I agree with Chris. However, Chad was promoting it as a HEAVY contest. It just means only certain kind of guys will go in it.

In 2005 and 2006, I was in a couple of contests where a Trap Bar Hold for time, 500 lbs, was the final event. The bar was taken off some blocks, so it did not move more than a few inches. Many of us were not exactly "manhandling" the weights, but everybody was able to do it, even if it was only for a few seconds. Even Clay Edgin was not holding it for anywhere close to a minute. I think that is about as much as is reasonable for a "normal" contest. Adding another 25 pounds would have knocked a third of the competitors out of it completely (including me). 600 pounds? Geez, that's a lot of weight for most of the people on this board...

[Bob Lipinski]

Hahahaha, here is some friendly trash talk-

If the standards were so low, why didn't you win the GGC? Really though, grip has long had a reputation for having freaks to lame to do anything else. That might have been true to a certain extent 8-10 years ago, but not any more. The standards are good enough, in my opinion, that a superstud from strongman or PL would have to do some specific grip work to beat today's top guys, much less wipe the floor with them.

Holding 600+ pounds isn't just about grip. You have to be mildly strong in the legs/back to lift it for partial deadlift heights, and kinda strong in the upper back to carry it any distance. If you want to lift heavy things, there are other contests for that.

I bet a few more replies will get nastier than this!

[Bob Lipinski]

One other things that you are forgetting Rex- The prospective audience. Many grip enthusiasts don't have a lot of weight training experience. There needs to be a place for them in our sport. No, not some idea of "fairness", but if you make too many of the events impossible, you won't get any competitors. Good luck sponsoring and getting enough entry fees to have a good contest.

Edited October 9, 2008 by Bob Lipinski

[mobsterone]

A body not being strong enough for it's hands is not the fault of the event design.

Man states obvious. Does not win prize.

Others have already mentioned they wish to test their grip - not their whole body.

Call it a preference then. Will we see no more one-hand lift / deadlift at the British then? I would hope not.

Man who has never competed...

[The Natural]

Hahahaha, here is some friendly trash talk-

If the standards were so low, why didn't you win the GGC?

I welcome trash talk, thrive on it really, but it does need to be on target to give me any sort of thrill. The FH tests mainly grip. My point was that 300 pounds in each hand for a FH is not considered, in the wider strength community, something that is only suited for "300 pound monsters". It is considered a reasonable event for even a 200 pound man. But when you enter the grip world, suddenly it's only fit for the SHW's. Strange!

Really though, grip has long had a reputation for having freaks to lame to do anything else. That might have been true to a certain extent 8-10 years ago, but not any more. The standards are good enough, in my opinion, that a superstud from strongman or PL would have to do some specific grip work to beat today's top guys, much less wipe the floor with them.

Unfortunately this is all just speculation, because the grip community for the most part avoids any overlap with strongman events. That's why I wanted a FH. We could compare our times to the times of amateur strongmen. If our times were better, this would give some credibility to our claims to great grip strength.

Holding 600+ pounds isn't just about grip. You have to be mildly strong in the legs/back to lift it for partial deadlift heights, and kinda strong in the upper back to carry it any distance.

"Mildy". "Kinda". Right. That's the point. We ain't asking too much.

I bet a few more replies will get nastier than this!

Lord I hope so. I'm not drinking beer for nothing.

-Rex

[Matt Brouse]

Lord I hope so. I'm not drinking beer for nothing.

-Rex

Beer is for sissies. Real men drink whiskey. It's not just 300 pound monsters, either.

[The Natural]

Lord I hope so. I'm not drinking beer for nothing.

-Rex

Beer is for sissies. Real men drink whiskey. It's not just 300 pound monsters, either.

Beer supplies half my calories. Switching to whiskey would make me drop weight faster than Oprah. Then I wouldn't be able to do the 300 pound FH.

-Rex

[TKtheGreek]

rex is my hero lol

[The Mac]

A body not being strong enough for it's hands is not the fault of the event design.

Man states obvious. Does not win prize.

Others have already mentioned they wish to test their grip - not their whole body.

Call it a preference then. Will we see no more one-hand lift / deadlift at the British then? I would hope not.

Man who has never competed...

Ouch!!

Seriously though, whilst I don't advocate that these events should take up a large percentage of events in a contest (unless it's a "Heavy" contest) I don't think the choice of events should be limited by something that is - largely - fixable.

[lifesnotfair]

As a fan (and a very weak one) I would like to see the One Hand DeadLift (on a barbell) in more events. I doubt anyone would be limited by backstrength here. And everyone has access to a regular barbell (not everyone has an axle, HH, or FW implements). To make it more similar, you could do it for time too, just hold a weight for time, no hook grip of course. Handsize isn't an issue here I think. I love that event

[MalachiMcMullen]

Lord I hope so. I'm not drinking beer for nothing.

-Rex

Beer is for sissies. Real men drink whiskey. It's not just 300 pound monsters, either.

Lord I hope so. I'm not drinking beer for nothing.

-Rex

Beer is for sissies. Real men drink whiskey. It's not just 300 pound monsters, either.

Beer supplies half my calories. Switching to whiskey would make me drop weight faster than Oprah. Then I wouldn't be able to do the 300 pound FH.

-Rex

:laugh

Guys, lets be real about this. As Bob said, the purest tests of grip strength are BOOOOOOOOOOOORING. If anybody has room to complain about snall hands, etc, I do. I'm 185lbs with 7.25" hands, I'm itsy bitsy compared to the big guys. Yet you'll have a hard time finding someone more against hand size divisions as myself. Is it any coincidence that Jedd is a strongman competitor, Josh is a damn good armwrestler, Dave is a fantastic lifter, Bob is a 440 raw bencher, Aaron has benched 550 raw in the past and is working towards 400 now, Ryan Klein pulls 800, John Beatty pulls 800, Eric Milfeld pulls 578@181, Chad is a strongman competitor, etc etc etc and they keep coimng in the top 5 in contests? You may not like it, but overall body strength is tested in any grip contest no matter the events. I'm all for fairness now, but contests that test ONLY grip will be boring for competitors and spectators and the sport will die. I'm looking at this from a "what about the future" perspective. Let's be serious, if I can pick 300 per hand, there have to be several dozen guys on here who can do it if the ROM was the same. When I did that, my best ever squat was 275 and I hadn't squatted in months, maybe even a year and my best pull was 420. If 420 puts me at the top tier of grip guys my size and age...

Bob, at MGC, Brian Admunsen and Taylor did pretty good for themselves with no training in grip. Why? Taylor has pulled 700 and Admunsen is one hell of a strength athlete. Even the bes tstrongmen will have to train grip specifically to win a contest, but that wont stop them from doing very well for themselves regardless. The issue here is people are worred about injuries/not even being able to lift a weight. If you are given several months to train for a contest you want to compete in, should that not be enough time to prepare yourself? Granted, it's hard to train for something like the Hercules Hold, but you can still train for it. First and foremost it is a grip contest, so in the case of the FW that I would LOVE to see(and FW pick for max weight was used in the past I believe) just set the weights on blocks for the bigger guys. The handles I used were above my knees so I'd expect guys as tall as Chris to have the same ROM in a GRIP contest. I think it's perfectly OK and reasonable to have events that will test body strength as much as grip. When bodystrength becomes the limiting factor, you have to consider the circumstances. There are some things that you look at and go NO WAY CAN I LIFT THAT because you get freaked out by #'s. Same with bending/grippers right? A week before I bent the Edgin, I couldn't wobble an 8" one or do more than warp a brutal hex. I just finished a workout last night that involved taking a 7" Edgin to 4.5" and taking down 2 brutal hexes. It's all mental. Chris, you wont break your "glass" back lifting 300 per hand on the FW if you tried it. Get some handles that are above your knees and give it a go. (I'm using the 300/hand FW because that was one of the issues at the start).

Can anyone else give me an example of events that are likely to test bodystrength more than grip strength? Keep in mind guys, there are guys in PL feds pulling 793@165. I can't hold onto 793 with straps. Would that stop me from competing against that man in a PL comp? Absolutely not. But you'll say that's a different situation, not when compared to the axle pulls. Andrew's 455 might as well be 793 to me since my best ever was 440 on an OLY bar. Yet I love the axle lift. Does anybody who competed at BBB this year think there was any less than 400lbs per hand thanks to those cars?(KEEP IT HEAVY JOHN!!!!) Last year's BBB had 270 per hand. The only difference is you were pulling your shoulders in, not up and there was littlel low back involvement, if any. Do any of the competitors think now that they could at least hold onto 300 per hand in a FW? Chris, you proved that even your shoulders are strong enough to resist 270 per hand.

Bob, isn't Don Larkin's wife Jerri able to lift, or has lifted in the past, the 770lb hand and thigh lift? Oh, shes no 250+lb monster with big hands guys

Arturo, the WR one hand OLY bar deadlift is more than I can pull with 2 hands atm.

Edited October 9, 2008 by MalachiMcMullen

[Hubgeezer]

Holding 600+ pounds isn't just about grip. You have to be mildly strong in the legs/back to lift it for partial deadlift heights, and kinda strong in the upper back to carry it any distance. If you want to lift heavy things, there are other contests for that.

I agree.

I guess it depends on what your definition of "strong" is.

To a "grip guy" (that's me), 600 pounds is more than "mildly" strong.

But a contest producer can do whatever he wants...

[climber511]

As often happens - it seems I got another good one going hehe!

In the discussion on Chad’s Deep South Grip Wars – Rex asks for a farmers hold with 300# per hand as a possible event. Now I’m fine with that with the raised bars he recommended to raise it up where I can DL it possibly. But this brings the question to mind of how should we approach certain lifts when the idea is to provide a test of grip strength. Rex who is 300# of muscle thinks that a 600# partial DL on farmers bars is something that about anyone can do and then hold for a period of time. I know its one heck of a lift for me – not always even possible with a short ROM. Now this is certainly not a dig at Rex – it just shows us how differently people view what is heavy or even possible based on their own strengths – this is something we all do – myself included. Testing overall body strength or maybe a better way to express it would be – in a grip contest setting, should we design events (especially super heavy ones) in such a way that we minimize the limitation of overall body strength like Rex has tried to do here?

Here's the start of the original post - I wasn't really saying not to have heavy events but to try and figure out a way (or the best way) to make them a "grip" test. Look at the last sentence of the above paragraph please! Rex's method of raising it to give me (anyone) a short ROM for the lift part was a good example of that but I didn't (don't) feel it addresses the whole issue. A problem with an event that starts with a fixed weight is that if you just plain can't lift it - you get a zero for it. Another way might be a rising bar FH where you hold increasingly heavy weights for a certain time frame with a short ROM to get started. At least weaker guys wouldn't blank the event and stronger guys wouldn't have an upper limit either. A good answer - perhaps not but maybe a more fair way to approach it. I generally like and do well in hold for time events - and certainly don't want them to go away but I hope we might agree that the idea is not to start the event in such a way as to blank out people on the event. An example - time is 10 seconds - I call 400# - hold it for 10 sec - good lift. Rex calls 600# - holds for 10 - he wins. Scoring is now 10 for Rex 6.6 for me. Three attempts - sound reasonable? This is just one way in which we might make it more fair for all - I'm sure other creative solutions are possible as well. This wouldn't put any upper limit on the test for the big boys (or strong little boys) also. This could lead to some very impressive weights being lifted while allowing lesser mortals to compete as well. Many people choose weather or not to attend a contest by their ability to do the events - if we can find a way to let them be successful at their own level - it might help. Even strongman doesn't only have one huge stone where you lift it or fail totally. What think you all?

Edited October 9, 2008 by climber511

[MalachiMcMullen]

As often happens - it seems I got another good one going hehe!...

Once again, as in Post #2, if we had classes of any kind, questions like this would be nullified. Chris, your 100% on the multiple weights for events like a FW pick and hold event. That's why Bob is using that exact method in the Rim lift for MGC7. He knows darn well that most of the competitors might not fair so well on the 355 or so he has planned for the heaviest hold so he is allowing 155 and something in the 200's. I think that's about the best we can do right now since competitions, for the most part, remain classless(you know what I mean )

[The Natural]

As often happens - it seems I got another good one going hehe!

In the discussion on Chad’s Deep South Grip Wars – Rex asks for a farmers hold with 300# per hand as a possible event. Now I’m fine with that with the raised bars he recommended to raise it up where I can DL it possibly. But this brings the question to mind of how should we approach certain lifts when the idea is to provide a test of grip strength. Rex who is 300# of muscle thinks that a 600# partial DL on farmers bars is something that about anyone can do and then hold for a period of time. I know its one heck of a lift for me – not always even possible with a short ROM. Now this is certainly not a dig at Rex – it just shows us how differently people view what is heavy or even possible based on their own strengths – this is something we all do – myself included. Testing overall body strength or maybe a better way to express it would be – in a grip contest setting, should we design events (especially super heavy ones) in such a way that we minimize the limitation of overall body strength like Rex has tried to do here?

Here's the start of the original post - I wasn't really saying not to have heavy events but to try and figure out a way (or the best way) to make them a "grip" test. Look at the last sentence of the above paragraph please! Rex's method of raising it to give me (anyone) a short ROM for the lift part was a good example of that but I didn't (don't) feel it addresses the whole issue. A problem with an event that starts with a fixed weight is that if you just plain can't lift it - you get a zero for it. Another way might be a rising bar FH where you hold increasingly heavy weights for a certain time frame with a short ROM to get started. At least weaker guys wouldn't blank the event and stronger guys wouldn't have an upper limit either. A good answer - perhaps not but maybe a more fair way to approach it. I generally like and do well in hold for time events - and certainly don't want them to go away but I hope we might agree that the idea is not to start the event in such a way as to blank out people on the event. An example - time is 10 seconds - I call 400# - hold it for 10 sec - good lift. Rex calls 600# - holds for 10 - he wins. Scoring is now 10 for Rex 6.6 for me. Three attempts - sound reasonable? This is just one way in which we might make it more fair for all - I'm sure other creative solutions are possible as well. This wouldn't put any upper limit on the test for the big boys (or strong little boys) also. This could lead to some very impressive weights being lifted while allowing lesser mortals to compete as well. Many people choose weather or not to attend a contest by their ability to do the events - if we can find a way to let them be successful at their own level - it might help. Even strongman doesn't only have one huge stone where you lift it or fail totally. What think you all?

I think your solution at the end here is intelligent and practical. There has been an undeniable elitist tone in my writings, something I cannot really help, and I admire the fact that you haven't attacked that tone and diverted attention from the main issue.

I suppose I should explain my main motivation for advocating the FH and thick bar events. It has to do with risk. The more a person risks when it comes to strength feats, in my opinion, the more admirable he is. This is why competitors get more respect from me than YouTube heroes--they risk more. They do their lifts in front of witnesses. You can't fake anything at a competition. You either have the strength or you don't.

Another way to increase risk is to prove yourself on events that are widely known. There are all sorts of YouTube heroes out there who perform feats that nobody has ever done and probably won't ever do. Therefore, there is no basis for comparison. The stronger the basis for comparison, the more you risk. The more respect you deserve. That's why a RT max is more impressive than a 200# lift on some weird home-made thick bar that nobody has ever used. There's a strong basis for comparison for the RT. Even Westside guys use the RT to train, and they know about as much about grip as they know about deadlifting.

Another way to increase risk is to compare yourself to a strong pool of competitors. Right now, the best known strength sport involving lots of grip is strongman.

So, given the above, it seems that the best way to increase risk is to compare ourselves to strongmen using widely known events. Thick bar and FH are two widely known events that are regularly a part of strongman competitions. So I think these events should be included in grip contests. Including them is risky. It's ballsy. It's admirable.

But you have the Hand-Size-Objectors and the Body-Strength-Objectors trying their hardest to get rid of these events, and thereby reducing the risk. I don't want the risk to be reduced. I want it increased.

So this is what motivates me. I'm not trying to pick those events that suit me and other "300 pound monsters". I just want high-risk events. If grippers and 2HP were regularly a part of strongman competitions, then I'd be advocating their inclusion in grip contests. But the truth is that most strength athletes have never even seen a 2HP set-up, or a V-bar, or any of the other obscure devices of the grip world. And that's why relying solely on such devices is not a good idea if you are sympathetic to my way of thinking.

-Rex

Edited October 9, 2008 by The Natural

[matthcarl]

I still don't understand this kind of event is a good test of grip strength, or at least better than say, the RT or V-bar, where total weight moved isn't so much of an issue as grip. I also like the one-hand DL, as I don't think that is nearly so much of a bodystrength event if your grip is good enough. And there's still grippers...it seems like a more pure test of grip to me, and skinny guys seem to hold their own.

Of course, I love bending as well, and if it not a test of grip strength, I could ask why some of the smaller guys seem to excel at it. The evidence for it being more of a test of upper body strength is not there, as evidenced by my sorry bench press.

Like I said before, I would never gripe about a particular contest's grip lineup, but it seems to me to be moving away from grip if a #3 closer can't even budge the implements on a certain event.

Edited October 9, 2008 by The Writer

[jad]

But you have the Hand-Size-Objectors and the Body-Strength-Objectors trying their hardest to get rid of these events, and thereby reducing the risk. I don't want the risk to be reduced. I want it increased.

So this is what motivates me. I'm not trying to pick those events that suit me and other "300 pound monsters". I just want high-risk events. If grippers and 2HP were regularly a part of strongman competitions, then I'd be advocating their inclusion in grip contests. But the truth is that most strength athletes have never even seen a 2HP set-up, or a V-bar, or any of the other obscure devices of the grip world. And that's why relying solely on such devices is not a good idea if you are sympathetic to my way of thinking.

How exactly is a guy with huge hands risking anything by taking on thickbar events like RT and AA? He's got a gimme event over anybody with smaller hands assuming he's even remotely as strong.

Another question; Why does strongman dictate what we do in grip? I don't care that most strength athletes have never seen a 2HP, v-bar, or other "obscure devices of the grip world". Maybe they have never heard of the devices because they compete in strongman and not grip. Grip tests hand and wrist strength, strongman is total body with an occasional grip event. The two are separate and we don't need strongman's blessing on event selection.