Masters of metal, agents of steel

[David_wigren]

7 hours ago, IvanYastrebov said:

My point is about the fact, that it is incorrect to say that HRS is in one country much tougher than in other countries, especially since most countries export steel to other countries, and you will not trace the original place. It's more logical, to mention a steel grade, and not just HRS, but I doubt that this will be of interest to anyone. As for the calibrations, this is also a big question. I think around 5 years ago, there were heated debates in the russian community regarding calibration. One man made himself a calibration machine and installed Iron Grip bars into it. The results were much higher than stated. For example, a 220 kg bar showed 300+ kg on a dynamometer . The fact is that even calibration may show different results. It all depends on whether free weight is used in the setup, or dynamometer, what holds and what angles, and so on. I believe that David Horn's Old time rating is good for international community, because the lightest steel is taken as the essence. IMO is that counting kg on HRS rods does not make sense. David's rated steel it's good for UK/EU, maybe US, but shipping let say to my home in Sevastopol, the place full under sanctions for over years it will cost hundreds of USD to get beast bars here? I really doubt it reasonable. You read that steel is softer in Russia/Ukraine, that's your right. I can also pack to you a couple of 22mm HRS bars in November, when I got home from my trip. If still some post works between our countries. It was the same stock that I tried in 2015 on the video, I was not particularly trained with braced bending, I used them mainly for warming up before horseshoes, so it should still be in the garage. Maybe you will find some differences, as I didn't.

I’m not claiming all eastern and southern hrs to be easy. Some of it will of course be normal and also hard. It’s just that I have bent way more hrs from Sweden and the US and have NEVER encountered easy hrs. And even though I’ve bent less steel from eastern and southern europe some of them have been MUCH easier. That’s my experience. It could just be a fluke. But if I look at some of the performances of eastern europeans who has bent unrated hrs and rated hrs it simply does not add up.

Kirill Vankovich is one example. The guy is a beast and one of the best all round benders, so I don’t mean no disrespect. And I’m definitely not claiming any foul play. He’s simply bending the steel that is available to him. But in my experience, if you can bend a 19mm x 27” hrs bar. Then you should absolutely piss on a 16mm x 25” bar rated to 242kg. Yet he barely got it within the 5 minute time limit. I’m not sure I could bend a 19mm x 27”, yet A 25” 242k bar would be VERY easy for me. Hardly a warmup I mean I came very close to bending a 19” 330k bar the other week, almost 100k more (and cut from the exact same bar as the one Kirill bent). Maybe he was injured or out of practice. But truly, the difference is so huge I find it very hard to believe. 

Here’s another example from many years ago in 2011. Both bars are s235jr. From my own supplier I was barely able to bend a 20mm x 33.75” in just under 5 minutes. And it killed me.

And when I tried a 20mm s235jr bar from southern europe cut to 31” (2.75” shorter). I bent it very easy in just over 30 seconds. As it it was a warmup. Today I’m certain I could bend that particular bar cut to 24-25”, maybe even shorter.

These are supposed to be the exact same steel. But you can’t tell me that they are equal. The s235jr from southern europe was at least 30% weaker. I would guess that the 20mm bar cut to 31” would be equal to the swedish s235jr cut to 40”. They really were worlds apart. 
 

I have no idea what the strength of your 22mm is. For all we know it could be harder. But unless you’ve bent rated steel there’s no way of knowing. Back in 2011 everyone assumed the steel was relatively similar. And we figured out that it was truly not the case. I mean no disrespect. But unless you have bent rated bars, you simply don’t know. 

[Londonjoseph]

1 minute ago, David_wigren said:

I’m not claiming all eastern and southern hrs to be easy. Some of it will of course be normal and also hard. It’s just that I have bent way more hrs from Sweden and the US and have NEVER encountered easy hrs. And even though I’ve bent less steel from eastern and southern europe some of them have been MUCH easier. That’s my experience. It could just be a fluke. But if I look at some of the performances of eastern europeans who has bent unrated hrs and rated hrs it simply does not add up.

Kirill Vankovich is one example. The guy is a beast and one of the best all round benders, so I don’t mean no disrespect. And I’m definitely not claiming any foul play. He’s simply bending the steel that is available to him. But in my experience, if you can bend a 19mm x 27” hrs bar. Then you should absolutely piss on a 16mm x 25” bar rated to 242kg. Yet he barely got it within the 5 minute time limit. I’m not sure I could bend a 19mm x 27”, yet A 25” 242k bar would be VERY easy for me. Hardly a warmup I mean I came very close to bending a 19” 330k bar the other week, almost 100k more (and cut from the exact same bar as the one Kirill bent). Maybe he was injured or out of practice. But truly, the difference is so huge I find it very hard to believe. 

Here’s another example from many years ago in 2011. Both bars are s235jr. From my own supplier I was barely able to bend a 20mm x 33.75” in just under 5 minutes. And it killed me.

And when I tried a 20mm s235jr bar from southern europe cut to 31” (2.75” shorter). I bent it very easy in just over 30 seconds. As it it was a warmup. Today I’m certain I could bend that particular bar cut to 24-25”, maybe even shorter.

These are supposed to be the exact same steel. But you can’t tell me that they are equal. The s235jr from southern europe was at least 30% weaker. I would guess that the 20mm bar cut to 31” would be equal to the swedish s235jr cut to 40”. They really were worlds apart. 
 

I have no idea what the strength of your 22mm is. For all we know it could be harder. But unless you’ve bent rated steel there’s no way of knowing. Back in 2011 everyone assumed the steel was relatively similar. And we figured out that it was truly not the case. I mean no disrespect. But unless you have bent rated bars, you simply don’t know. 

Well, personally, I promise all my HRS is like adamantium. Can't be bent unless I try it.

[David_wigren]

6 minutes ago, Londonjoseph said:

Well, personally, I promise all my HRS is like adamantium. Can't be bent unless I try it.

Well Don is another example. Don’s bent a midbar rated 268k. And that bar looked very similar to Don’s 3/4” x 32”. So it’s safe to say that it’s roughly in the same range. Don’s stock of 3/4” cut to 27” would probably be 320-330k if not more. It would simply not be fair to compare Don’s bends to some of the easterners. Because it’s obvious that Don is working with stock that’s way harder.

And that’s not anyone’s fault. It’s just an inherit problem that occurs when people are bending their own stock that they get from their own supplier. And that’s why the only lists that truly count are the rated ones. All the other lists are a crap shot since we don’t know how hard each other stock is.

Edited August 17, 2022 by David_wigren

[Londonjoseph]

1 minute ago, David_wigren said:

Well Don is another example. Don’s bent a midbar rated 268k. And that bar looked very similar to Don’s 3/4” x 32”. So it’s safe to say that it’s roughly in the same range. Don’s stock of 3/4” cut to 27” would probably be 320-330k if not more. It would simply not be fair to compare Don’s bends to some of the easterners. Because it’s obvious that Don is working with stock that’s way harder.

And that’s not anyone’s fault. It’s just an inherit problem that occurs when people are bending their own stock that they get from their own supplier. And that’s why the only lists that truly count are the rated ones. All the other lists are a crap shot since we don’t know how hard each other stock is.

Whatever bend anyone else does will never compare to him doing 1 billion red nails in 2 hours! 

[Blacksmith513]

17 minutes ago, Londonjoseph said:

Whatever bend anyone else does will never compare to him doing 1 billion red nails in 2 hours! 

You can say that again. 
 

or the 850ish 60ds in 4ish hours. Or his last one with the spikes. Out of any sport or physical activities. That’s some of the most impressive stuff I’ve ever seen.

[David_wigren]

18 minutes ago, Londonjoseph said:

Whatever bend anyone else does will never compare to him doing 1 billion red nails in 2 hours! 

This is true

[IvanYastrebov]

4 hours ago, David_wigren said:

I’m not claiming all eastern and southern hrs to be easy. Some of it will of course be normal and also hard. It’s just that I have bent way more hrs from Sweden and the US and have NEVER encountered easy hrs. And even though I’ve bent less steel from eastern and southern europe some of them have been MUCH easier. That’s my experience. It could just be a fluke. But if I look at some of the performances of eastern europeans who has bent unrated hrs and rated hrs it simply does not add up.

Kirill Vankovich is one example. The guy is a beast and one of the best all round benders, so I don’t mean no disrespect. And I’m definitely not claiming any foul play. He’s simply bending the steel that is available to him. But in my experience, if you can bend a 19mm x 27” hrs bar. Then you should absolutely piss on a 16mm x 25” bar rated to 242kg. Yet he barely got it within the 5 minute time limit. I’m not sure I could bend a 19mm x 27”, yet A 25” 242k bar would be VERY easy for me. Hardly a warmup I mean I came very close to bending a 19” 330k bar the other week, almost 100k more (and cut from the exact same bar as the one Kirill bent). Maybe he was injured or out of practice. But truly, the difference is so huge I find it very hard to believe. 

Here’s another example from many years ago in 2011. Both bars are s235jr. From my own supplier I was barely able to bend a 20mm x 33.75” in just under 5 minutes. And it killed me.

And when I tried a 20mm s235jr bar from southern europe cut to 31” (2.75” shorter). I bent it very easy in just over 30 seconds. As it it was a warmup. Today I’m certain I could bend that particular bar cut to 24-25”, maybe even shorter.

These are supposed to be the exact same steel. But you can’t tell me that they are equal. The s235jr from southern europe was at least 30% weaker. I would guess that the 20mm bar cut to 31” would be equal to the swedish s235jr cut to 40”. They really were worlds apart. 
 

I have no idea what the strength of your 22mm is. For all we know it could be harder. But unless you’ve bent rated steel there’s no way of knowing. Back in 2011 everyone assumed the steel was relatively similar. And we figured out that it was truly not the case. I mean no disrespect. But unless you have bent rated bars, you simply don’t know. 

Really, I never went so deep into steel marks, where it from and etc. For me bending it's mostly hobby, really enjoy with that. If count kgs, so let build up something like wrist developer and set dynamometer instead of springs, joke)

As I sad, the main problem with calibrated steel from UK, its shipping. I know Kirill, very strong man, I think he was very close to Kerckhaert DF 25x10#4. I saw those bends with bars. In fact that you fail on long bars, doesn't mean you are not strong enough for, I saw your videos on 30"+ lengths, I believe, if you will change techniques a bit you will able to destroy it, and will find it very easy. It is not the same as on short and middle lenghts.

[IvanYastrebov]

4 hours ago, David_wigren said:

 All the other lists are a crap shot since we don’t know how hard each other stock is.

Very clear from your side, but from my side, you can always find another supplier and mark of steel and bend let say 24mm, if you believe you can do it. It is much easier than do shipping somewhere to village in far Siberia. Rated stock its good for competitions, for example. But how it is now, you can challenge only with very limited peoples. If it's ok for you, well, then its different question. 

I heard your points, and I believe you got mine. A bit tired with argues)

[David_wigren]

One way to solve this issue could be an established method of rating that is open and easily replicated by everyone. That way you wouldn’t have to buy and ship steel from the other side of the planet. If bending as a community was just a little bigger you could have 5-10 guys spread in different parts of the world do their own rating. Maybe they would cross-rate each others bars from time to time just to make sure that they don’t differ too much.

This will probably never happen. But it would solve the issue of hard vs soft hrs.

[IvanYastrebov]

46 minutes ago, David_wigren said:

One way to solve this issue could be an established method of rating that is open and easily replicated by everyone. That way you wouldn’t have to buy and ship steel from the other side of the planet. If bending as a community was just a little bigger you could have 5-10 guys spread in different parts of the world do their own rating. Maybe they would cross-rate each others bars from time to time just to make sure that they don’t differ too much.

This will probably never happen. But it would solve the issue of hard vs soft hrs.

We have two standard HRS bars 22mm and 24mm with the same length, let say both of them 35". 24mm will be harder at any time.  I believe it's even not a point of discuss 

[IvanYastrebov]

1 hour ago, David_wigren said:

One way to solve this issue could be an established method of rating that is open and easily replicated by everyone. That way you wouldn’t have to buy and ship steel from the other side of the planet. If bending as a community was just a little bigger you could have 5-10 guys spread in different parts of the world do their own rating. Maybe they would cross-rate each others bars from time to time just to make sure that they don’t differ too much.

This will probably never happen. But it would solve the issue of hard vs soft hrs.

I understand your points,and I agree but with current situation with braced bending it will harm only, as braced bending not so popular, especially long bars. I hope it will change. And more people will come. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by IvanYastrebov

[David_wigren]

45 minutes ago, IvanYastrebov said:

We have two standard HRS bars 22mm and 24mm with the same length, let say both of them 35". 24mm will be harder at any time.  I believe it's even not a point of discuss 

I don’t understand your reasoning at all. Wouldn’t you feel cheated if I found some soft 22mm hrs and bent it cut to say 90cm. It would make your bend at 120cm look quite pathetic. While in fact your bend might actually be harder.

And who knows, maybe your hrs actually is as soft as the ones I encountered from Russia before. Then your 22mm could be similar to my 20mm bar. I mean, you don’t even seem to know how much the hrs vary. So maybe you’ve only bent soft hrs?

Without rated bars we simply don’t know anything. If we don’t care about ratings, well then we might as well not care about measuring the thickness and lengths of the bars we are bending. 

[Londonjoseph]

Either way I think there's no harm in rating steel, only good things to come of more people do it tbh 

[Blacksmith513]

If you are competing there has to be a standard. Doesn’t matter where the steel comes from.

 

[IvanYastrebov]

Just now, David_wigren said:

I don’t understand your reasoning at all. Wouldn’t you feel cheated if I found some soft 22mm hrs and bent it cut to say 90cm. It would make your bend at 120cm look quite pathetic. While in fact your bend might actually be harder.

And who knows, maybe your hrs actually is as soft as the ones I encountered from Russia before. Then your 22mm could be similar to my 20mm bar. I mean, you don’t even seem to know how much the hrs vary. So maybe you’ve only bent soft hrs?

Without rated bars we simply don’t know anything. If we don’t care about ratings, well then we might as well not care about measuring the thickness and lengths of the bars we are bending. 

My reasoning is that you are trying to cut dozen benders from Russia, by saying that only one list is good and the rest is scrab, and here in Russia we have some very soft stock, wich it bsht. I explained your why its not only difficulties in shipping, I would add that currently just to buy something in UK/EU from Russia it is just not possible, due to sanctions.  I'll repeat, that Ive tried many different stocks from different countries and parts of the world. And with standard HRS 20mm will never be harder then 22mm on the same length.

If you have some adequate proposition how to standardised, go ahead.

I proposed to send you my 22mm stock, so you can compare with your "hard" stock. I don't know what do you have on hands, but those are same what Ive bended during my work in other countries.

 

[IvanYastrebov]

Following your logic David, its very possible that Elizabeth' 28.5" x16mm bend could be much harder then yours 30.75" x 20.07mm.

You sad this list is scrab, but you still run on it.

I agree with this point that bends should be standardised, but it should be in a different way.

[David_wigren]

1 hour ago, IvanYastrebov said:

My reasoning is that you are trying to cut dozen benders from Russia, by saying that only one list is good and the rest is scrab, and here in Russia we have some very soft stock, wich it bsht. I explained your why its not only difficulties in shipping, I would add that currently just to buy something in UK/EU from Russia it is just not possible, due to sanctions.  I'll repeat, that Ive tried many different stocks from different countries and parts of the world. And with standard HRS 20mm will never be harder then 22mm on the same length.

If you have some adequate proposition how to standardised, go ahead.

I proposed to send you my 22mm stock, so you can compare with your "hard" stock. I don't know what do you have on hands, but those are same what Ive bended during my work in other countries.

 

I think you’re missing my point. I’m not saying your hrs is weak. For all we know it could be the hardest hrs on the market. Even if you send your 22mm to me and it turns out to be very hard it will not change the fact that there ARE soft steel out there. I know it because I have bent it and felt it myself! I agree that it was perhaps incorrect of me to single out any particular country or area in the world where soft steel is more common. I only said it because that was my own experience. But my own experience could also be of extreme coincidence.

58 minutes ago, IvanYastrebov said:

Following your logic David, its very possible that Elizabeth' 28.5" x16mm bend could be much harder then yours 30.75" x 20.07mm.

You sad this list is scrab, but you still run on it.

I agree with this point that bends should be standardised, but it should be in a different way.

It is possible. However it is fortunate that both me and Elizabeth have bent rated steel. Her best to this date in the mid bar range is 152k. And my best cert bend in the mid bar range with rated stock is 309k. That’s over twice as high. So, with that in mind one can deduce that my best bend of an unrated bar is probably harder than Elizabeth’s best bend of an unrated bar.

Unfortunately for you you have never bent rated stock so you don’t know if your best bend is better than Elizabeth’s.

[David_wigren]

Btw. Felt cute tonight so I attempted a 22mm x 46”. It’s my second attempt ever on 22mm. It turned out to be relatively easy. It took just over 2 minutes and I bent it about 4-5” off center XD. I’m not very experienced with bars over 40”. But I’m pretty sure I can cut it down to 42-43”. The bend was not hard, just a little awkward. 
 

Will submit this to Horne’s list as it is the best 22mm bend ever done by anyone. Video will be up on youtube shortly.

 

[IvanYastrebov]

Just now, David_wigren said:

Btw. Felt cute tonight so I attempted a 22mm x 46”. It’s my second attempt ever on 22mm. It turned out to be relatively easy. It took just over 2 minutes and I bent it about 4-5” off center XD. I’m not very experienced with bars over 40”. But I’m pretty sure I can cut it down to 42-43”. The bend was not hard, just a little awkward. 
 

Will submit this to Horne’s list as it is the best 22mm bend ever done by anyone. Video will be up on youtube shortly.

 

Congrats. As I sad its matter to adapt of techniques only, for the long bars. If you will continue to training with 40"+ bars, you will feel that 1" inch HRS bars its very possible to bend.

[bruce1337]

1 hour ago, IvanYastrebov said:

Following your logic David, its very possible that Elizabeth' 28.5" x16mm bend could be much harder then yours 30.75" x 20.07mm.

You sad this list is scrab, but you still run on it.

I agree with this point that bends should be standardised, but it should be in a different way.

Davids entire point is that there needs to be more rating of steel stock so we can compare their bends more accurately.

Bending your own steel is great for training and tracking progress but for competitions there needs to be a strict process to make sure everyone is on the same level.

If the competition is done in one place, then you can buy all steel from the same supplier and it should be pretty fair for everyone competing. 

But for online competitions it needs to be more strict with rated steel to keep it fair for everyone involved.

[IvanYastrebov]

Just now, bruce1337 said:

Davids entire point is that there needs to be more rating of steel stock so we can compare their bends more accurately.

Bending your own steel is great for training and tracking progress but for competitions there needs to be a strict process to make sure everyone is on the same level.

If the competition is done in one place, then you can buy all steel from the same supplier and it should be pretty fair for everyone competing. 

But for online competitions it needs to be more strict with rated steel to keep it fair for everyone involved.

This is very clear for me. But reality is different. We have let say 25 strong benders from Russia which not have opportunity to get this stock. Of course you can say always thats is not your problem. But then you can't feel yourself on the 1st place, as other benders just cant get this bars to challenge.

I think more reasonable to challenge with crowbars of some famous makers. To build up some ladder from easiest to hardest crowbars, like it was done with horseshoes years ago. Then it will release you from the obligation to buy rated stock in one place. I think its more fare.

 

[IvanYastrebov]

Here is Singaporean HRS I talked about. It is not pure round stock, as you have. You can see on the photos, there is two something like reinforced lines, actually no have idea what is it. From the sides dia is 22mm, and the widest is 22.5 mm if I measure between this lines. Supplied with anti-corrosion coating. I've got such coated bars in Brasil also. And even this one I found same, well, maybe not a same, some kg plus ot minus. But I didn't feel some critical difference.

[David_wigren]

Here’s the video of the 22mm x 46” I did yesterday. 
 

 

[David_wigren]

21 hours ago, IvanYastrebov said:

Congrats. As I sad its matter to adapt of techniques only, for the long bars. If you will continue to training with 40"+ bars, you will feel that 1" inch HRS bars its very possible to bend.

I do not think I’ll ever have any chance at bending 25mm bars. Not unless they are like the soft steel I was talking about earlier, and even then I don’t think I would have a chance. Long bar bending feels very awkward for me. I feel very weak when bending it. I don’t feel that I’m able to put much force into the bar. Not like the mid bar where I can feel that there really is enough power going into the bar and through my body to where I might hurt myself. With the long bar I don’t think I actually need any protection. Because it’s just not enough force going into my leg to where it might crush me. Not like it is for midbar. If I went without leg padding on a 330k midbar bend I would without a doubt snap my hamstring muscle. Heck, I might snap it even with the use of thick padding. When I fail with the long bars it’s because it gets stuck in an awkward position where I’m just weak. I personally prefer bending shorter 16-20mm bars much more for that reason. Because when I fail it wasn’t because it was awkward, it was because I wasn’t strong enough.
 

20 hours ago, IvanYastrebov said:

This is very clear for me. But reality is different. We have let say 25 strong benders from Russia which not have opportunity to get this stock. Of course you can say always thats is not your problem. But then you can't feel yourself on the 1st place, as other benders just cant get this bars to challenge.

I think more reasonable to challenge with crowbars of some famous makers. To build up some ladder from easiest to hardest crowbars, like it was done with horseshoes years ago. Then it will release you from the obligation to buy rated stock in one place. I think its more fare.

 

Having a list of crowbars is a very cool idea. But it’s got way more problems with it than what the rated bars do. You mention accessibility of the rated bars being a problem for some parts of the world. Well, you have the same problem with crowbars. And in Sweden I don’t think there are any crowbars that can be bent to a full “U”. They will either snap before they fully bend or they will just spring back out so much that you can’t crush it down. Even if you had the strength it would just spring back out. Another problem would be quality assurance. These crowbars might vary alot from batch to batch. And if a manufacturer decides to change the design, or stop production all together. Well then the whole list is trashed and won’t ever be back again.   Another issue is that very few would be able to bend a crowbar. You would have a bunch of guys that bends the soft hrs-like crowbar that I’ve seen some of the eastern guys bend. But very few will do much more than a small dent on an actual quality crowbar that you would actually use for work.

No, having rated bars is simply much better for reproducibility, and longevity. If David Horne stops selling rated bars, another could just copy his rating method and continue the list. The current lists have benders going back all the way to 2007. Horne’s lists are the most competitive lists for braced bending ever. I’m sorry but if you want to play with the big boys, then you will have to go there.

[IvanYastrebov]

35 minutes ago, David_wigren said:

I do not think I’ll ever have any chance at bending 25mm bars. Not unless they are like the soft steel I was talking about earlier, and even then I don’t think I would have a chance. Long bar bending feels very awkward for me. I feel very weak when bending it. I don’t feel that I’m able to put much force into the bar. Not like the mid bar where I can feel that there really is enough power going into the bar and through my body to where I might hurt myself. With the long bar I don’t think I actually need any protection. Because it’s just not enough force going into my leg to where it might crush me. Not like it is for midbar. If I went without leg padding on a 330k midbar bend I would without a doubt snap my hamstring muscle. Heck, I might snap it even with the use of thick padding. When I fail with the long bars it’s because it gets stuck in an awkward position where I’m just weak. I personally prefer bending shorter 16-20mm bars much more for that reason. Because when I fail it wasn’t because it was awkward, it was because I wasn’t strong enough.
 

Having a list of crowbars is a very cool idea. But it’s got way more problems with it than what the rated bars do. You mention accessibility of the rated bars being a problem for some parts of the world. Well, you have the same problem with crowbars. And in Sweden I don’t think there are any crowbars that can be bent to a full “U”. They will either snap before they fully bend or they will just spring back out so much that you can’t crush it down. Even if you had the strength it would just spring back out. Another problem would be quality assurance. These crowbars might vary alot from batch to batch. And if a manufacturer decides to change the design, or stop production all together. Well then the whole list is trashed and won’t ever be back again.   Another issue is that very few would be able to bend a crowbar. You would have a bunch of guys that bends the soft hrs-like crowbar that I’ve seen some of the eastern guys bend. But very few will do much more than a small dent on an actual quality crowbar that you would actually use for work.

No, having rated bars is simply much better for reproducibility, and longevity. If David Horne stops selling rated bars, another could just copy his rating method and continue the list. The current lists have benders going back all the way to 2007. Horne’s lists are the most competitive lists for braced bending ever. I’m sorry but if you want to play with the big boys, then you will have to go ther

Bending/snapping of crowbars definitely shouldn't be so easy. 

To buy some crowbar of famous maker itsmore easy, because we have stuff from EU/USA shops, peoples know how to avoid restrictions, and it goes thru 3rd of 4th countries, nothing changed. But to order rated stock from David its currently impossible, just because you simply can't transfer money to UK. Well, if David will accept crypto, then it can solve problem.