Two Hand Pinch Lift (euro Pinch)

[jad]

Maybe most of you are rather tall then or carry muscle not needed in a grip competition. Why would little guys show up anyway as the outcome is pretty much a given with no weight classes?

I hear you; as Scott mentioned there is the social aspect but putting that aside, this is where you get into the different camps. Group one has the continuous answer of "get stronger" and Group two continues to want a level playing field whether that is handsize neutral events, handsize classes,weight classes or elite, open, novice. To your point and Chris Rice talked about this a bit, the LWs just don't show up. We had two at Nats(potentially two more from Durniat camp but one looked to be 190# and very lean and the other was 175# but didn't qualify) and maybe if Chris and I starved ourselves for months we could make 82.5kg but I've been as low as 190# and it wasn't pleasant.

[Mikael Siversson]

In Olympic lifting, 82.5k is not exactly lightweight, only in grip in the US.

[Mikael Siversson]

I get the impression that 'lean' means something different to me (with my bodybuilding background). How about shredded to the bone.

We had two at Nats(potentially two more from Durniat camp but one looked to be 190# and very lean and the other was 175# but didn't qualify) and maybe if Chris and I starved ourselves for months we could make 82.5kg but I've been as low as 190# and it wasn't pleasant.

[jad]

I get the impression that 'lean' means something different to me (with my bodybuilding background). How about shredded to the bone.

We had two at Nats(potentially two more from Durniat camp but one looked to be 190# and very lean and the other was 175# but didn't qualify) and maybe if Chris and I starved ourselves for months we could make 82.5kg but I've been as low as 190# and it wasn't pleasant.

I kind of figured that and glad to see you confirmed it. Nobody there was bodybuilding lean but who is when they actually have to compete vs. standing on a stage? If you want to quantify it with </=10% body fat, I'd GUESS the following:

Andrew Durniat

The dark haired fellow that pinched with me on 48mm (sorry, I don't remember your name)

possibly Daniel and Cannon

The thing is that Tim Struse, Jedd, Adam, etc..even at 10% BF are not going to be 82.5kg. Adam would be the closest but even he would have to drop some muscle or manipulate his fluid status to make it. Like you said, they have too much muscle in non grip areas. I run into this with AW all the time and the elite guys legs literally look atrophied and their upperbody is cartoonish. I don't see anybody in grip cutting their legs and lowerbody to make weight especially since many believe you have to train your whole body to achieve your potential in grip.

[Mike Rinderle]

I get the impression that 'lean' means something different to me (with my bodybuilding background). How about shredded to the bone.

We had two at Nats(potentially two more from Durniat camp but one looked to be 190# and very lean and the other was 175# but didn't qualify) and maybe if Chris and I starved ourselves for months we could make 82.5kg but I've been as low as 190# and it wasn't pleasant.

If we get to the point that we have to shave our bodies, oil up, and wear a Speedo to compete in a grip comp, I'm out!

[climber511]

I get the impression that 'lean' means something different to me (with my bodybuilding background). How about shredded to the bone.

We had two at Nats(potentially two more from Durniat camp but one looked to be 190# and very lean and the other was 175# but didn't qualify) and maybe if Chris and I starved ourselves for months we could make 82.5kg but I've been as low as 190# and it wasn't pleasant.

If we get to the point that we have to shave our bodies, oil up, and wear a Speedo to compete in a grip comp, I'm out!

If you guys are shaving, oiling, and wearing posing trunks - I'm really glad Nationals are moving to Andrews next year My hair is the only thing covering all my wrinkles

[Jedd Johnson]

Maybe most of you are rather tall then or carry muscle not needed in a grip competition. Why would little guys show up anyway as the outcome is pretty much a given with no weight classes?

Again with the generalizations. Out of the 15 competitors at Nationals, not one person there (other than myself - and my pinch was horrible) wasn't lean and athletic. I'm not sure what your picture of American grip athletes is, but I can tell you after competing on Saturday, it is wrong. I don't think there was anybody there who could have made the 82.5K class (who wasn't already in it) without losing considerable muscle mass.

You need to keep a close eye on Daniel Reinard's Grip Career. This guy is extremely lean. I would call him an under 180 Durniat.

[Mikael Siversson]

I have competed in bodybuilding (once), olympic lifting, power lifting and grip. The bodybuilding experience was, by far, the most memorable. There were about 500 people watching it and I got indecent letters from attractive females a couple of days after the contest (well from one that is). Bodybuilding won hands down as an overall experience.

I get the impression that 'lean' means something different to me (with my bodybuilding background). How about shredded to the bone.

We had two at Nats(potentially two more from Durniat camp but one looked to be 190# and very lean and the other was 175# but didn't qualify) and maybe if Chris and I starved ourselves for months we could make 82.5kg but I've been as low as 190# and it wasn't pleasant.

If we get to the point that we have to shave our bodies, oil up, and wear a Speedo to compete in a grip comp, I'm out!

If you guys are shaving, oiling, and wearing posing trunks - I'm really glad Nationals are moving to Andrews next year My hair is the only thing covering all my wrinkles

[climber511]

I have competed in bodybuilding (once), olympic lifting, power lifting and grip. The bodybuilding experience was, by far, the most memorable. There were about 500 people watching it and I got indecent letters from attractive females a couple of days after the contest (well from one that is). Bodybuilding won hands down as an overall experience.

I get the impression that 'lean' means something different to me (with my bodybuilding background). How about shredded to the bone.

We had two at Nats(potentially two more from Durniat camp but one looked to be 190# and very lean and the other was 175# but didn't qualify) and maybe if Chris and I starved ourselves for months we could make 82.5kg but I've been as low as 190# and it wasn't pleasant.

If we get to the point that we have to shave our bodies, oil up, and wear a Speedo to compete in a grip comp, I'm out!

If you guys are shaving, oiling, and wearing posing trunks - I'm really glad Nationals are moving to Andrews next year My hair is the only thing covering all my wrinkles

I've never done a BB comp and now is certainly not the time to start. I did do one of those self improvement things and shaved and took pictures (which shall forever remain hidden). That was the year I turned 50 - there is a reason old people shouldn't do that stuff. I thought I was really lean and cut until I looked closer and realized those were wrinkles.

[jad]

I have competed in bodybuilding (once), olympic lifting, power lifting and grip. The bodybuilding experience was, by far, the most memorable. There were about 500 people watching it and I got indecent letters from attractive females a couple of days after the contest (well from one that is). Bodybuilding won hands down as an overall experience.

Jedd is just being modest, his grip groupies, the Diesel Dolls wreaked havoc on the Climber gym by starting a panty storm after he broke the 2HP record. I didn't think MaryAnn and Theresa were ever going to get order restored.

[lifesnotfair]

I have competed in bodybuilding (once), olympic lifting, power lifting and grip. The bodybuilding experience was, by far, the most memorable. There were about 500 people watching it and I got indecent letters from attractive females a couple of days after the contest (well from one that is). Bodybuilding won hands down as an overall experience.

That is because those women didn't know that recent studies suggest a Strong Grip has correlation with Fertility... or something to that effect.

So when a 160 pound gymnast or climber or olympic lifter who happens to be lucky enough to posses 9" hands and Oldguy's wrapping on thickbars, starts smoking everyone in the lightweight competition, you'll regret not supporting handsize divisions

The thing is you say that generally a big body comes with a big hand, and the other way around too. But this isn't always the case. But I've found there are some light guys with huge hands, in sports like armwrestling. Some 154 pullers with very big hands. These people exist. Maybe they don't participate in Grip as this "sport" is still relatively new and unknown, but they're out there. And these dudes would dominate in a Mighty Mitts-style competition if they trained for it. Wouldn't it make more sense to the light-but-giant-handed guys to compete with other large handed men, even if they're heavier? I can only see this being a disadvantage for said fellows if an event requires him to lift too much weight... so maybe the axle deadlift could be difficult for a lighter guy. However, since it's a handsize division and not weight, such person could always have the chance to bulk up a bit and up his deadlift number. Events like 2HP, grippers, RT, blobs, sledges or wrist events, etc., don't require THAT much overall body strength. You can always test the axle DL with one hand or something and I doubt overall strength would be a huge factor there. And like I said, if it IS a big factor, these guys can always bulk up.

On the other side, a 6'3" guy weighing 300#.... is just not gonna get to 82.5kg even if he gets "lean". So if said person happens to have tiny hands.... maybe he can compete with other tiny-handed people, even if he outweighs them all by 100-120 pounds. If it happens to be the case that ALL other tiny-handed fellows feel they're at a disadvantage against the big-guy-with-small-hands, then once again since it's a handsize and not weight division, the could always gain some weight/overall strength if they feel that's hindering their two hand pinch and grippers, etc.

Just some random thoughts

[Mikael Siversson]

We do actually have some data coming in regarding the Europinch. Feel free to check out the top 10 list in the 82.5k class (only four names thus far but it is an interesting reading nonetheless). Raw data are always better than speculation.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Mikael Siversson

[daniel reinard]

AMEN x2

Maybe most of you are rather tall then or carry muscle not needed in a grip competition. Why would little guys show up anyway as the outcome is pretty much a given with no weight classes?

I went because I qualified and wanted to compete.

A grip contest is also a social event. It's fun.

[Jedd Johnson]

I have competed in bodybuilding (once), olympic lifting, power lifting and grip. The bodybuilding experience was, by far, the most memorable. There were about 500 people watching it and I got indecent letters from attractive females a couple of days after the contest (well from one that is). Bodybuilding won hands down as an overall experience.

Jedd is just being modest, his grip groupies, the Diesel Dolls wreaked havoc on the Climber gym by starting a panty storm after he broke the 2HP record. I didn't think MaryAnn and Theresa were ever going to get order restored.

Mikael, with the advent of Facebook, YouTube, etc, the number of propositions I get from Training videos has increased over the years. Both by men and women.

Grip is where it's at for me.

[Mikael Siversson]

Sounds promising. Maybe I should post a few youtube videos closing sexy grippers.

I have competed in bodybuilding (once), olympic lifting, power lifting and grip. The bodybuilding experience was, by far, the most memorable. There were about 500 people watching it and I got indecent letters from attractive females a couple of days after the contest (well from one that is). Bodybuilding won hands down as an overall experience.

Jedd is just being modest, his grip groupies, the Diesel Dolls wreaked havoc on the Climber gym by starting a panty storm after he broke the 2HP record. I didn't think MaryAnn and Theresa were ever going to get order restored.

Mikael, with the advent of Facebook, YouTube, etc, the number of propositions I get from Training videos has increased over the years. Both by men and women.

Grip is where it's at for me.

[Bob Lipinski]

One of my friends is a hit with the gay "bear" community, so if you bofyfat hovers at 15-20% there is still hopre for an admiring fanbase.

[climber511]

What we all agree on is this - Grip needs some kind of division to help attract new people and create a more level playing field. The only two choices we can come up with are body weight and hand size.

Body weight is fairly simple - pick a weight and go with it - decide on the weigh in time frame and you are pretty much done with it. Yes people can manipulate it somewhat but with a short weigh in period, not too much.

Hand size measuring is so complicated that a ten year study might be needed to come up with what is really important to what events and how to measure it - length - little finger to thumb - middle finger to thumb - how far you can wrap of a certain size bar - how much can you move your thumb, how much meat you have on your hand etc. I can just imagine walking into a "normal" gym and trying to get guys to come compete in a grip contest and trying to explain how we determine what class they will lift in with hand size.

Both of these variables matter - no one is arguing that they don't - but only one of them is simple enough to work with at a practical level. At the personal level I am better off with hand size divisions but I simply think it won't work.

[jad]

What we all agree on is this - Grip needs some kind of division to help attract new people and create a more level playing field. The only two choices we can come up with are body weight and hand size.

Body weight is fairly simple - pick a weight and go with it - decide on the weigh in time frame and you are pretty much done with it. Yes people can manipulate it somewhat but with a short weigh in period, not too much.

Hand size measuring is so complicated that a ten year study might be needed to come up with what is really important to what events and how to measure it - length - little finger to thumb - middle finger to thumb - how far you can wrap of a certain size bar - how much can you move your thumb, how much meat you have on your hand etc. I can just imagine walking into a "normal" gym and trying to get guys to come compete in a grip contest and trying to explain how we determine what class they will lift in with hand size.

Both of these variables matter - no one is arguing that they don't - but only one of them is simple enough to work with at a practical level. At the personal level I am better off with hand size divisions but I simply think it won't work.

Exactly. I'd prefer handsize but I think you'd indirectly filter 90% or better with bw anyway so I'd be happy with either one. I completely agree on BW being better for recruiting new people (PL, Strongmen, etc..). They would find the hand measuring weird.

[Jedd Johnson]

No argument here.

So let's say we go with bodyweight divisions after WSH data is presented.

How do we decide which bodyweight is the appropriate cut-off?

Speak to me - I am all ears.

[daniel reinard]

No argument here.

So let's say we go with bodyweight divisions after WSH data is presented.

How do we decide which bodyweight is the appropriate cut-off?

Speak to me - I am all ears.

I guess there is two ways to go at it: divide the competitors into two classes somewhat evenly, or go with a lower weight to bring in lighter guys.

Some have divided their comp into two classes based on average weight, more like 200#. I more truer lightweight definition would be less than that.

Is the idea to divide it into two classes or to get small guys into the sport? If it's to bring smaller guys in (since big guys don't appear to be shy about grip, hence the high average weight) then a 181.5# seems more appropriate.

[Scott Styles]

Strength based classes would be interesting to me. Maybe something like:

Level 1 - Anyone

Level 2 - Close a #1 with a CCS or Pinch a 30lb Blob

Level 3 - Close a #2 with a CCS or Pinch a 40lb Blob

Level 4 - Close a #3 with a CCS or Pinch a 50lb Blob

Someone could qualify for a class before the contest or via video or whatever. Levels could be grouped (1+2, maybe 3+4) depending on the number of competitors. I'd be in level 2, could be motivated to eventually reach level 3, would have no hope of level 4. It doesn't let a light guy be a champion, but I find it hard to care about that. If someone is at the top of the light guys, they need higher competition anyway.

I think most men strong enough to be interested in a strength competition would be able to do level 2 pretty quick. Maybe lower everything to a 20mm set and take 5lbs off each of the blob weights if that is not the case. Might not even need gender specific competition in this scenario.

If weight classes are used, I think 82.5k is a pretty good cutoff. Josh's description of the impact of weight classes on arm wrestling makes me think they aren't a great option for grip.

[bencrush]

I'm still in favor of the 181lb class. Not because it suits me though. Because I am usually at 220-225 for the past few years. Having this 181lb class would be enough impetus for more guys to join the grip game - and compete. And the impetus that some guys (cough, cough - me) may need to finally drop some unnecessary weight if their frame will allow it.

[Cannon]

I guess there is two ways to go at it: divide the competitors into two classes somewhat evenly, or go with a lower weight to bring in lighter guys.

Some have divided their comp into two classes based on average weight, more like 200#. I more truer lightweight definition would be less than that.

Is the idea to divide it into two classes or to get small guys into the sport? If it's to bring smaller guys in (since big guys don't appear to be shy about grip, hence the high average weight) then a 181.5# seems more appropriate.

I agree!

And also admit that the lowest possible weight class suits me well since I've never been over 172-ish in my life.

I like 82.5kg. No matter your build--short, tall, thin, stout--it's hard to argue that someone who is 82.5kg is not lightweight. Maybe it's just my perspective, but when you get into the 190s and especially 200, that is a big guy.

[jad]

I agree with the others.

Relative to North American Grip

Before we can decide on what cut-off we want, we have to decide whether the goal is to increase participation from smaller guys (climbers, crossfitters, etc..) or if we're looking to ensure the average grip competitor isn't having to compete with the 250# monsters that win every contest.

If we want to recruit NEW people; the 82.5kg is fine. The downside is I don't think you will see it have much of an impact on the current crop of gripsters so you're really gambling on if it will grow the sport. IMO, most of the grip guys are around 90-95kg range/could make the cut fairly easily and then the monsters are generally all North of 110kg. The downside being, 95kg is certainly not a LW and asking 75-80kg guys to compete with them is a hardsell so you're not likely to pull in many 155# climbers/smaller guys looking to compete at a strength sport.

[climber511]

I agree with the others.

Relative to North American Grip

Before we can decide on what cut-off we want, we have to decide whether the goal is to increase participation from smaller guys (climbers, crossfitters, etc..) or if we're looking to ensure the average grip competitor isn't having to compete with the 250# monsters that win every contest.

If we want to recruit NEW people; the 82.5kg is fine. The downside is I don't think you will see it have much of an impact on the current crop of gripsters so you're really gambling on if it will grow the sport. IMO, most of the grip guys are around 90-95kg range/could make the cut fairly easily and then the monsters are generally all North of 110kg. The downside being, 95kg is certainly not a LW and asking 75-80kg guys to compete with them is a hardsell so you're not likely to pull in many 155# climbers/smaller guys looking to compete at a strength sport.

We have a sort of "filter" coming up with the WSH competition. If at the end of it - we drew a lot of sub 82.5K guys here in the states then let's go with it. It those numbers aren't forthcoming - I for one am going back to my 94K number for Gripmas. I don't want to offer an 82.5 class and then have 3 or 4 guys sign up in it and 15 or better in the open. My goal with Gripmas is to offer a fairly level playing field for those who actually show up - not just those who talk about it on a forum.

Edited July 27, 2011 by climber511