Two Hand Pinch Lift (euro Pinch)

[Jedd Johnson]

I am currently in a debate with Mikael on whether the Two Hand Pinch Lift done on the adjustable Euro Pinch Device or suitable replica is bodyweight dependent.

I welcome further sensible discussion on this matter, but before you chime in, please read this entire post so you can see my point.

He says that it naturally favors people with a heavier bodyweight than lighter bodyweight. He has said to me the basis for this is the Top 20 Pinchers.

1.Jedd Johnson, USA 119.04k WSH 2010 WR

2.Steve Gardener, England 117.5k WCPB 2010 **

3.Laurence Shahlaei, England 117.5k WCPB 2010 **

4.David Horne, England 116.22k WSH 2010 WR

5.Chad Woodall, USA 116.0k GC 2009 WR

6.Martin Arildsson, Sweden 112.1k LGC XVII 2007 WR

7.Aaron Corcorran, USA 112.0k WSH 2010

8.Nick McKinless, England 110.52k WSH 2010

9.Dave Thornton, USA 108.9k GC 2009

10.Rex Hubbard, USA 108.6k AZCG II 2009

11.Juha Harju, Finland 106.1k FC 2011

12.Ross Love, USA 106.10k RCGC 2011

13.Brad Ardrey, USA 105.2k GC 2009

14.Chris Rice, USA 104.92k WSH 2010

15.Andrew Durniat, USA 104.88k WSH 2010

16.Timo Tuukanen, Finland 104.85 FC 2011

17.Paul Knight, USA 104.69k RCGC 2011

18.Brent Barbe, USA 104.65k GMAS 2010

19.Jouni Pakarinen, Finland 103.6k FC

20.Eric Milfeld, USA 102.9k ETC 2010** (101.8k SoHGC 2009)

Now, as far as I can tell, all of these people are over 200lbs, except Paul Knight and Eric Milfeld. Unfortunately, I am not sure who Timo and Jouni are, so I could be off by two.

Now at first glance, this could seem to prove Mikael's point, however, I would suggest that perhaps an even stronger reason these people are doing so well is that they either own a 2HP or they have a training partner with one.

For instance, I don't think Rex owned a 2HP, but he did train with Paul and Eric for quit sometime. How much of an effect could this have on his ability to Pinch?

My feeling is that being able to train on the actual adjustable device is a much bigger advantage than some realize. For instance, I can usually add 10 to 15 lbs to a person's by showing them the correct technique and getting them on the right width for their hand size. Experience on the implement is HUGE. Look at Adam Glass. He jumped up more than 50-lbs in less than a year once he got the Euro device.

The 2HP is adjustable for hand size. Getting the right width makes a big difference, but if the first time you get your hands on the implement is during warm-ups at the contest, then you are at a huge disadvantage.

I am wondering if the people on this list could please provide some information to add to this discussion...

Could you please post your bodyweight (at the time of your above-credited lift), hand size from wrist to longest finger tip and also the width you use?

Thanks.

[pdfk20]

I'm 76kg in weight (currently), my PB on 2HP is 91kg, now wether or not I will be able to reach lifts of 100kg + is currently unknown, i'm sure as hell gonna try to get there. I will probably have to buy the actual 2HP apparatus. Time will tell...

[barbe705]

I don't think the argument really holds water. first of all, you would need to look at every one who lifted in all of the comps the list results are from. I think if you did that you would see that heavy lifters took up as much space at the bottom of the list as at the top. there is no way to correlate weight to 2hp without that info.

fyi my weight at gripmas at the time of my pull was 225#. I used a 58mm width and I believe my hands are 7 3/4.

Edited July 5, 2011 by barbe705

[Scott Styles]

Based on the list, it's clear being a white male is the key to elite strength in the two hand pinch.

IMO, grip contests suffer from a sampling bias. It's pretty hard to make conclusions based on the participants.

From a common sense perspective... Heavier people are stronger. Specific training results in higher performance. Aren't you both right?

[climber511]

1.Jedd Johnson, USA 119.04k WSH 2010 WR – 255

2.Steve Gardener, England 117.5k WCPB 2010 ** - 290

3.Laurence Shahlaei, England 117.5k WCPB 2010 ** - 300

4.David Horne, England 116.22k WSH 2010 WR - 250

5.Chad Woodall, USA 116.0k GC 2009 WR - 285

6.Martin Arildsson, Sweden 112.1k LGC XVII 2007 WR - 300

7.Aaron Corcorran, USA 112.0k WSH 2010 - 255

8.Nick McKinless, England 110.52k WSH 2010 - 220

9.Dave Thornton, USA 108.9k GC 2009 - 240

10.Rex Hubbard, USA 108.6k AZCG II 2009 - 290

11.Juha Harju, Finland 106.1k FC 2011 - 300

12.Ross Love, USA 106.10k RCGC 2011 - 285

13.Brad Ardrey, USA 105.2k GC 2009 - 265

14.Chris Rice, USA 104.92k WSH 2010 - 202

15.Andrew Durniat, USA 104.88k WSH 2010 - 225

16.Timo Tuukanen, Finland 104.85 FC 2011 - ?

17.Paul Knight, USA 104.69k RCGC 2011 - 215

18.Brent Barbe, USA 104.65k GMAS 2010 - 230

19.Jouni Pakarinen, Finland 103.6k FC - ?

20.Eric Milfeld, USA 102.9k ETC 2010** (101.8k SoHGC 2009) – 190

Chris Rice – bodyweight was 202# - hand size 7 5/8” – width is 50mm

Jedd – I have added approximate bodyweights after each person. I believe Paul is and has been over 200# unless it’s just recently - a few others I have no idea and all the above are simply guesses on my part but most will be fairly close I believe. If my guesses are close then the average BW of the top ten is 268#. That is some darn big people any way you look at it. Now this just comes from my recollection of reading posts etc but Shahlaei, Martin, and Ross Love more or less just managed to do huge lifts simply due to freak strength from other sports and little to no real training on the Euro (I certainly could be all wrong about this). I am constantly amazed by what I perceive as a huge blind spot by “bigger” strength athletes (not just in grip). They somehow convince themselves that it is a level playing field between themselves and the rest of the world. Muscular size is in general the driving force behind strength – every strength sport in the world proves this. Of course there are “outliers” or freaks of nature that are the exception to the rule but overall bigger equals stronger (not fatter of course). Now of course specific practice on the actual implement is going to help anyone improve – there is a huge advantage to using the best width for each person – and there are definite techniques that allow more weight to be lifted. Are all big people stronger than all little people – of course not – but I think in general they have a potential to be strong more so than smaller people. All else being equal a 15” forearm has the potential to be stronger than a 12” forearm. Olympic lifting – records are highest in the super heavyweights. PL, ditto. Strongman, there are no great little strongmen at the top levels - you ever wonder why that is? Highland Games – all the best are huge men. Shop Putt, big. Throwers in general – big. All the top grip guys are big – why in the world can’t people see this? Does hand size play a role – definitely – a very big role but perhaps not so much in 2 HP as in some other things? Athletes do not drop weight to become stronger; they drop weight to get into a class where they feel they can be more competitive. They drop weight to be faster, jump higher or further – they do not drop weight to lift more. A “good” big man is always going to beat a “good” smaller man overall. People gain weight to train harder with bigger weights that lead to more strength - and then drop it just long enough to compete – never the other way around. But this argument is a waste of time – a continuation of something that never changes – and never will.

[Mikael Siversson]

Well spoken, if the top ten in the 2HP does not convince people that bodyweight matters, a lot, nothing will. Within three months we will have 30-50 new names on 2HP in the 82.5k class. My prediction is that the average in the top 10 will be below 90k compared to 115k or thereabouts in the top 10 in the heavyweight class. My pinch dropped by more than 5% from dropping weight from 83-84k to 76k and this was witnessed by my training partner Lee. I got my six-pack back but it certainly cost me pinching strength.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Mikael Siversson

[The Mac]

Somewhere in the back of my mind I remember an article on / by Bruce White where it tracks the evolution of his pinching numbers along with his bodyweight (I think it may have been written by David Horne but cannot remember) - that might be an interesting peice of evidence to present here.

I can't remember if there were any conclusions that would be relevant however.

[Mikael Siversson]

Bruce White's lifts and bodyweight is interesting but not anywhere near as solid evidence as that derived from top 10 lists in the 2HP based on heavyweights vs guys in the 82.5k class. We will have those lists in about a month or two so just be patient. The hand size advocates may of course argue that there is a strong correlation between body weight and ownership of the Euro pinch set up, i.e., the smaller you are the more likely you are to own a Euro pinch, thus distorting 2HP vs bodyweight data.

Somewhere in the back of my mind I remember an article on / by Bruce White where it tracks the evolution of his pinching numbers along with his bodyweight (I think it may have been written by David Horne but cannot remember) - that might be an interesting peice of evidence to present here.

I can't remember if there were any conclusions that would be relevant however.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Mikael Siversson

[The Mac]

I assume that you will give the 82.5kg class pinch list a year or so to "mature" before comparing it against the Overall List?

[Mikael Siversson]

A year would be even better although, as you and everyone else will see, the average in the top ten of the two weight classes will be miles apart and you can take that to the bank. Return to this post a year from now. The difference will be 20k if not more (average top 10).

I assume that you will give the 82.5kg class pinch list a year or so to "mature" before comparing it against the Overall List?

Edited July 5, 2011 by Mikael Siversson

[Mikael Siversson]

As we speak the average for the top 10 above 82.5k is 113.8k and the average in the 82.5k class is 83.1k. The latter has only two results but one is from a very strong guy (for his weight).

Edited July 5, 2011 by Mikael Siversson

[dthor]

Could you please post your bodyweight (at the time of your above-credited lift), hand size from wrist to longest finger tip and also the width you use?

Bodyweight was around: 235#, Hand size: 8 1/4", Width: Train on about 56mm non Euro device, Moving up from 54mm to 58mm on the Euro.

[barbe705]

Based on the list, it's clear being a white male is the key to elite strength in the two hand pinch.

IMO, grip contests suffer from a sampling bias. It's pretty hard to make conclusions based on the participants.

From a common sense perspective... Heavier people are stronger. Specific training results in higher performance. Aren't you both right?

agreed. what we really need is a better, more complete, data set. if every athletes weight at each leg of the WSH is recorder that would be a much more useful picture than the 82.5k top ten.

[Mikael Siversson]

Because...

if every athletes weight at each leg of the WSH is recorder that would be a much more useful picture than the 82.5k top ten.

[Jedd Johnson]

Chris, I can tell you feel strongly about this, and I respect that. I'd like to pull out a few parts of your statement and give a rebuttal because I feel that there are some things you are not seeing.

Muscular size is in general the driving force behind strength

But what muscles matter in picking up a pinch device? You are telling me that a guy with a big bubble ass and big fat tear drop inner quad is going to pinch more than you, automatically? I don't understand how that can be possible.

Of course there are “outliers” or freaks of nature that are the exception to the rule

Chris, you ARE the exception to the rule. You have a Euro Replica. You alone prove my point. You would be in the masters class and you are above guys like Ryan Johnson who was sponsored as a strength athlete by a supplement company. Shouldn't he be above you with your line of reasoning? I deadlifts 400-lbs on the axle. Hell no. You invested the time and money to get a replica and put the time in on the implement to be an awesome 2HP-er. I think numbers like yours can be gotten by more people if the put something together like you or Parris and got to work on the real thing or replica instead of wasting their time on a ghetto pinch.

All else being equal a 15” forearm has the potential to be stronger than a 12” forearm.

Totally agreed. This is grip, not highland games, strongman, powerlifting, or Oly. What we should look at for Grip, where all we are doing is closing grippers or picking things up and setting them back down should be the lower arm. You are proving my point again ol' buddy.

Olympic lifting – records are highest in the super heavyweights. PL, ditto. Strongman, there are no great little strongmen at the top levels - you ever wonder why that is? Highland Games – all the best are huge men. Shop Putt, big. Throwers in general – big.

Every sport you just listed involves full body strength, power and speed, and many of them all at the same time. Hold a grip contest between all of the highland guys, all of the PL guys, all of the Strongmen, etc and the guys who have the biggest hands, best technique, neural training for grippers, and have practiced the most on the implements will win.

All the top grip guys are big – why in the world can’t people see this?

What are you considering Big? In the right comp, Paul Knight and Andrew Durniat would hand me my ass in a basket. I haven't weighed as much as PK since High School and as much as AD since College. They are light-weights compared to me. That ALL the top grip guys are big is not true. David Horne - what's he weigh? 235?

Athletes do not drop weight to become stronger; they drop weight to get into a class where they feel they can be more competitive.

Yes, but they do this in sports where the full body size and strength is a factor. Are you saying that the Two hand Pinch where most people lift UNDER 200 lbs is being limited by back strength? Then I say that person is WEAK.

But this argument is a waste of time – a continuation of something that never changes – and never will.

It's not a waste of time, Chris. With the right data, we can figure this stuff out. We need to hash the stuff out. We need to push the sport forward.

I have been a supporter of classes for quite some time, probably longer than anyone else in Grip, but I want to base a major decision like this on real data. Not just some top 50 list that just shows weights lifted.

[Mikael Siversson]

At the end of the day the question is simple. Do you lift more, all things equal, on the Europinch if you weigh more and have been practising the lift for some time.

A simple way of looking at it is the top 10 lists. Right now the difference is a whopping 30k. This difference will drop over time but I can bet my....car, yes my precious car on that the difference will remain much larger than the difference in the 2HP based on whether your hands are longer or shorter than 8''. The current top 10 indicate an almost insignificant difference with short-handed pinch monsters like Nick, David H and Martin amongst the top 10.

How you can ignore this is beyond me. Do you honestly expect the upcoming three WSH competitions to produce a considerable number of guys pulling 110-ish kilograms in the 82.5k class. There will be none I am afraid. Eventually yes but by then the big guys will be on their march towards 130k.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Mikael Siversson

[barbe705]

Because...

if every athletes weight at each leg of the WSH is recorder that would be a much more useful picture than the 82.5k top ten.

it will possibly show that there is no relationship between size and 2hp. without the complete data set you can't say anything. or, rather, you can say anything you want but, it means nothing.

by only looking at the top like this it excludes the possiblilty that there are even heavier athletes in the bottom of the list. with all the weights and all of the lifts we could begin to see if there is actullay a relationship between weight and lift. the top 20 has people of nearly a 100# range, maybe more. I think there are a number fo ways to look at the numbers. for instance, if we look at 2hp as a percentage of BW are the heavier athletes still favored?

my point was that the WSH will be a good chance to get some complete pictures of what's giong on. the top 20 list is very far from a comlpete picture. it covers 5 years and about 10 comps. and yet, we have no idea what the other guys weighed or pulled. incomplete.

[Mikael Siversson]

So if the average in the top 10 in 82.5k class is around 85k after the three WSH comps (expected to include closer to 50 guys in that weight class) and the average in the top 10 in the heavyweight class is around 113-114k it means...nothing. I am sorry but you lost me there.

How do you define a complete data set?

How can a data set be "complete"?

without the complete data set you can't say anything. or, rather, you can say anything you want but, it means nothing.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Mikael Siversson

[Mikael Siversson]

After the three WSH competition we are going to have a data set. We can then arrange the results into two weight classes with two top 10 lists. This eliminates results from people that may show up with very little experience. We can then calculate the average of the top 10 in the two classes. It will be a straight forward exercise determining if the difference is significant (e.g. 95% confidence interval or whatever we pick) and that will be that. To claim that it means nothing is ..........interesting.

I can ask a colleague of mine to calculate it. He does that for the data sets we use in our joint work.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Mikael Siversson

[Jedd Johnson]

At the end of the day the question is simple. Do you lift more, all things equal, on the Europinch if you weigh more and have been practising the lift for some time.

A simple way of looking at it is the top 10 lists. Right now the difference is a whopping 30k. This difference will drop over time but I can bet my....car, yes my precious car on that the difference will remain much larger than the difference in the 2HP based on whether your hands are longer or shorter than 8''. The current top 10 indicate an almost insignificant difference with short-handed pinch monsters like Nick, David H and Martin amongst the top 10.

How you can ignore this is beyond me. Do you honestly expect the upcoming three WSH competitions to produce a considerable number of guys pulling 110-ish kilograms in the 82.5k class. There will be none I am afraid. Eventually yes but by then the big guys will be on their march towards 130k.

Not sure who is ignoring it. I am just not willing to accept what is being said. There are many other factors to take into consideration. That's why i hope more people would give us their individual data so we know for sure.

[barbe705]

So if the average in the top 10 in 82.5k class is around 85k after the three WSH comps (expected to include closer to 50 guys in that weight class) and the average in the top 10 in the heavyweight class is around 113-114k it means...nothing. I am sorry but you lost me there.

How do you define a complete data set?

How can a data set be "complete"?

without the complete data set you can't say anything. or, rather, you can say anything you want but, it means nothing.

I haven't said that the results we have mean nothing. I've said that they could mean something but, without the whole picture we don't know. it's drawing conclusions from the very limited data we have that means nothing. maybe next to nothing would be more accurate.

I also said that after WSH the data would be more complete.

It's entirely possible that the average weight at the bottom of the list would be higher than the athletes at the top. It's also possible that weight, while playing a role, is not the sole or even major determining factor. I wouldn't disagree that weight and lift seem to correlate. I don't agree that correlation is causation.

I'm not arguing that weight is unrelated to 2hp lift. I'm arguing that we have a good opportunity coming up to see how the 2 are related. it will also be helpful in that it will give us a heavy weight list that isn't 6 years in the making with hundreds of athletes included.

[Mike Rinderle]

I've been back at grip now for about 3 weeks (it will be 4-5 come GGC). While I got a lot of carryover from my year long bending journey, I got almost no thumb or pinch work in at all. I don't have a Euro to practice on. I use a 54mm block that someone here on the board made for me.

At GGC I will be pulling at around 255 lbs body weight. I plan on cutting to 207 for Gripmas as a little personal experiment. During that time, I plan on hitting my pinch quite a bit and hope to get up to Jedd's 5 or 6 times to practice on a real Euro and also hope to make at least 2 of the WSH legs. We'll see if the steep curve of getting back into grip will overcome me losing 48lbs or whether I will pull more at the end of starving myself.

I think overall size and strength probably plays a factor in how much somebody can pinch. It seems intuitive. However, there are tons of other factors that play a part as well. Experience with the implement, the genetic way your particular hand structure is set up (not so much size because it is an adjustable device, but to what extent the thumb actually opposes the other 4 fingers), which is different from person to person, and the type of thumb you have (straight or hitchhiker).

There are going to be those super strong freaks out there that can just walk up to a Euro and pinch 110KG+ the first time they see one, but the top 20 list also shows that experience plays a huge role. Otherwise how are David Horne, Andrew, Chris, etc on a list with Brad Ardrey, Loz, and the other mass monsters?

I do agree that you need to take a look at a much larger data set to draw any real conclusions. The top 10 of any group are going to be the outliers and therefore could (I said could) skew the data. I think Brent is on the right path when he suggests we collect weight and performance of all the competitors at the 4 legs of the WSH this year. You can have a fairly reliable data set with that number of competitors. If there was some way to also collect Euro 2HP experience data, you would be well on your way to figuring out if one or the other, both of you, or neither of you are right.

[Hubgeezer]

I would like an estimate of how many people particpate in a grip competition in a year. Until the World's Strongest Hands came along, I doubt if there were 200 total, from all over the world combined. What is it now, 200? 250? 400? How many of those are even under 180 lbs? 20? 30? The biggest recent jump may be Eastern Europe.

Until then, this is at best guesswork.

I think the easiest way to determine the numbers is go through a year's worth of the contests covered on David Horne's website. His listing pretty much includes every contest that there is.

I was a bit shocked the last time I went through his contest listings - - there have now been grip contests on 5 different Continents!

[Mikael Siversson]

This statement is also.....interesting. So if we lets say (after the three legs of the upcoming WSH series) have 50 competitor's results in each weight class and first remove the top 10 because they are "outliers" we get better picture of the difference (if there is any)? Have you guys ever done statistics in school?

With all due respect you people need to take a class in statistics and then get back into the discussion.

The top 10 of any group are going to be the outliers and therefore could (I said could) skew the data.

[jad]

I think you hit it on the head regarding the best are those that own one/have access to one. It's the most technical lift in grip and it's not the easiest thing/cheapest thing to come by. No question that people don't lose weight to get stronger; bigger, generally means stronger, at least relative to the same individual. However, David Horne has held the record more than anybody and he's what 220-230?