Two Hand Pinch Lift (euro Pinch)

[Mike Rinderle]

Thank you for the suggestion Mikael, however, I have taken several and did very well in them. Certainly the top 10 and bottom 10 of a large sample could (again I will stress could) be outliers in a large sampling and could (there, I stressed it again) skew the data. I did not say we should exclude the top ten, but you certainly would not want to look at just the top 10 to get the most accurate picture. That would fly in the face of generally accepted statistical theory. I am not saying you are incorrect in any of your theories Mikael, only that a larger sampling size would give us a more sound set of data to draw any conclussions from.

This statement is also.....interesting. So if we lets say (after the three legs of the upcoming WSH series) have 50 competitor's results in each weight class and first remove the top 10 because they are "outliers" we get better picture of the difference (if there is any)? Have you guys ever done statistics in school?

With all due respect you people need to take a class in statistics and then get back into the discussion.

The top 10 of any group are going to be the outliers and therefore could (I said could) skew the data.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Mike Rinderle

[climber511]

I think you hit it on the head regarding the best are those that own one/have access to one. It's the most technical lift in grip and it's not the easiest thing/cheapest thing to come by. No question that people don't lose weight to get stronger; bigger, generally means stronger, at least relative to the same individual. However, David Horne has held the record more than anybody and he's what 220-230?

I always thought David Horne was 245 or so - not sure where I got that idea but that's what I have understood somehow.

[Too Tall]

.Chad Woodall, USA 116.0k GC 2009 WR

BWT - 290

Hand Size - 9"

Euro Width - 64mm

[barbe705]

This statement is also.....interesting. So if we lets say (after the three legs of the upcoming WSH series) have 50 competitor's results in each weight class and first remove the top 10 because they are "outliers" we get better picture of the difference (if there is any)? Have you guys ever done statistics in school?

With all due respect you people need to take a class in statistics and then get back into the discussion.

based on what I have seen at grip comps there are plenty of heavy guys not setting world records. I think that if you look at the whole pool of athletes the relationship between weight and lift will not be as clear cut and absolute as you are making it out to be.

also, I have taken and done well in stat classes. also, do a lot of data analysis for work.

also, instead of saying "with all due respect" you could try showing some. I haven't been saying weight is not a factor. I'm trying to point out that it's not the only (possibly not the major) factor involved. and, it doesn't seem like I've set out to insult you either.

I'm thinking that at WSH we could pretty easily get a picture of:

hand length

hand circumference length(I may have an idea to do this easily, I'll be trying it out at GGC)

body weight

years strength training

years training with a grip focus

do you own a Euro device

and again, I don't see how looking at 5% of the sample is able to establish a trend over all.

Edited July 6, 2011 by barbe705

[jad]

I think you hit it on the head regarding the best are those that own one/have access to one. It's the most technical lift in grip and it's not the easiest thing/cheapest thing to come by. No question that people don't lose weight to get stronger; bigger, generally means stronger, at least relative to the same individual. However, David Horne has held the record more than anybody and he's what 220-230?

I always thought David Horne was 245 or so - not sure where I got that idea but that's what I have understood somehow.

Really? I didn't know he was that big? I was just guessing based off of photos. I have no idea what he actually weighs.

[Cannon]

.Chad Woodall, USA 116.0k GC 2009 WR

Euro Width - 64mm

Wow.

[barbe705]

.Chad Woodall, USA 116.0k GC 2009 WR

Euro Width - 64mm

Wow.

pinch width is weird. mobster I believe weighs about 300#. he uses 44mm. the same as my 5' 2" wife.

I use a thicker width than Jedd and his hands are almost 2" longer than mine.

[climber511]

.Chad Woodall, USA 116.0k GC 2009 WR

Euro Width - 64mm

Wow.

pinch width is weird. mobster I believe weighs about 300#. he uses 44mm. the same as my 5' 2" wife.

I use a thicker width than Jedd and his hands are almost 2" longer than mine.

And what I like for one hand pinch is bigger than my two hand choice - don't know why that is?

[Mike Rinderle]

.Chad Woodall, USA 116.0k GC 2009 WR

Euro Width - 64mm

Wow.

pinch width is weird. mobster I believe weighs about 300#. he uses 44mm. the same as my 5' 2" wife.

I use a thicker width than Jedd and his hands are almost 2" longer than mine.

And what I like for one hand pinch is bigger than my two hand choice - don't know why that is?

Me too, but I think that may be due to the fact that most of my one hand pinching has been with blobs and blockweights. I was telling Brent that I would like to try some different widths ( I think thinner may be better for me) but I only have my 54mm 2HP block to train on so that's what I will probably always pinch at.

[daniel reinard]

What is the average weight of grip competitors? Aren't most big guys and that's why the lightweight 82.5kg class is coming around, to bring smaller people into the sport? Right now data is inconclusive. Big guys dominate the list, then again they are the sport. Enter the lightweight class and lets see what happens.

Hands obviously mean something on the Euro, and not just width size. Like Mike said, what type of thumb or joint angles and all that variable genetic mess. My thumbs sit far back on the hand, and I think that pays off on wide pinches, so does leanness. But on a Euro sausage fingers might be better. More contact area right? And thumb closer to the fingers on the hand means less torque applied to the thumb hence more effective muscle power applied to the pinch.

I think I'll be doing the 64mm width at Nats. My hands prefer wide pinch. I suck at my ghetto 2HP at 49mm but if I slap two slick painted 45s at 65mm together with a pipe and pony clamps I jump an easy 20lbs. Then again I've never done a width in between those two.

And talking about 2HP training, it makes a huge difference in actual Euro performance. I've never touched one. It's expensive. Do I suffer, you betcha. If someone wants to be great at this they need to train on the real deal.

[gripmaniac]

Having read thru this thread (bless Mikael's razor sharp debating skills ) I think you're missing the point that bodyweight is the only main variable. Yes, I think it makes some difference - but NOT a 20-30kg difference.

There are a host of other variables that determine someone's maximum pinch potential.

Some (ie. hand size, palm/finger/thumb length & width) you can't do anything about. On the flip side there are others (overall strength, hand thickness/dexterity, lift familiarity, finger & thumb strength) you can certainly do a LOT about.

Pointing to bodyweight as being the main determinant/difference in performance is just too simplistic for my liking. There are more factors to "weigh" up.

I don't think Bruce White cared too much about what he weighed . . . . I'd have given anything to see him try a few lifts on a Euro Pich setup in his prime. I doubt he'd be 20+kgs behind the overall top 20.

My 2 cents.

Dave

[Mikael Siversson]

Dave, we will soon have plenty of data after the three legs in the WSH series.

Having read thru this thread (bless Mikael's razor sharp debating skills ) I think you're missing the point that bodyweight is the only main variable. Yes, I think it makes some difference - but NOT a 20-30kg difference.

There are a host of other variables that determine someone's maximum pinch potential.

Some (ie. hand size, palm/finger/thumb length & width) you can't do anything about. On the flip side there are others (overall strength, hand thickness/dexterity, lift familiarity, finger & thumb strength) you can certainly do a LOT about.

Pointing to bodyweight as being the main determinant/difference in performance is just too simplistic for my liking. There are more factors to "weigh" up.

I don't think Bruce White cared too much about what he weighed . . . . I'd have given anything to see him try a few lifts on a Euro Pich setup in his prime. I doubt he'd be 20+kgs behind the overall top 20.

My 2 cents.

Dave

Edited July 11, 2011 by Mikael Siversson

[Mikael Siversson]

I am also bad at narrow widths and best at 64mm. Getting the Europinch did make a difference but not a huge one for me. The main difference is in the 1HP which is considerably harder with a Euro set up compared to lifting a set up based on two 45's. The reason being that in the latter case the weight is far more centralised which makes the set up easier to control. Expect more gains in the 1HP (compared to having a go at the Euro with zero practise on it) if you get a Europinch as it makes the lift harder (as explained above).

I think I'll be doing the 64mm width at Nats. My hands prefer wide pinch. I suck at my ghetto 2HP at 49mm but if I slap two slick painted 45s at 65mm together with a pipe and pony clamps I jump an easy 20lbs. Then again I've never done a width in between those two.

And talking about 2HP training, it makes a huge difference in actual Euro performance. I've never touched one. It's expensive. Do I suffer, you betcha. If someone wants to be great at this they need to train on the real deal.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Mikael Siversson

[Mikael Siversson]

Dave,

After the three legs of the WSH competitions the average of the top ten in the 82.5k class will be at least 20k less than the average of the top ten in the +82.5k class, unless the top heavyweight guys deliberately decline to compete. The average for the top ten in the 82.5k class will be in the 80-ies if not less. You will all be surprised how low the numbers in the 82.5k class are going to be.

Having read thru this thread (bless Mikael's razor sharp debating skills ) I think you're missing the point that bodyweight is the only main variable. Yes, I think it makes some difference - but NOT a 20-30kg difference.

[Jedd Johnson]

I fully recognize the potential for this to happen, Mikael, BUT I am not willing to just accept that the only reason why is the difference in bodyweight when you and I both know how much difference experience on the implement or a replica can be.

[Mikael Siversson]

Jedd, no one is claiming that differences are due solely to bodyweight but rather that bodyweight is the simplest AND best way of dividing competitors in the variable width Europinch.

I fully recognize the potential for this to happen, Mikael, BUT I am not willing to just accept that the only reason why is the difference in bodyweight when you and I both know how much difference experience on the implement or a replica can be.

[gripmaniac]

Well, I agree it's the simplest way to divide competitors, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's also the "best" way to do it - it's more the "most readily available and commonly accepted" way.

There is no easy solution to the problem. There are just too many variables. . . .pinch strength is one of them

Dave

[Cannon]

I am also bad at narrow widths and best at 64mm. Getting the Europinch did make a difference but not a huge one for me. The main difference is in the 1HP which is considerably harder with a Euro set up compared to lifting a set up based on two 45's. The reason being that in the latter case the weight is far more centralised which makes the set up easier to control. Expect more gains in the 1HP (compared to having a go at the Euro with zero practise on it) if you get a Europinch as it makes the lift harder (as explained above).

I think I'll be doing the 64mm width at Nats. My hands prefer wide pinch. I suck at my ghetto 2HP at 49mm but if I slap two slick painted 45s at 65mm together with a pipe and pony clamps I jump an easy 20lbs. Then again I've never done a width in between those two.

And talking about 2HP training, it makes a huge difference in actual Euro performance. I've never touched one. It's expensive. Do I suffer, you betcha. If someone wants to be great at this they need to train on the real deal.

I also just came to the same conclusion. I was positive that 45-50mm somewhere was going to be perfect for me (based on measuring my hand as Horne describes). But I couldn't get even 90% of my max off the ground. Even at 75% of my max I was getting nasty thumb tears.

So last workout I tried 57mm which is close to the width of the 2x35s which I used to set my current PR in the first place. Suddenly I hopped a new PR off the ground. Not a complete lift, but so much stronger than the thinner widths. And no tears at all from the workout.

I still hope to get some last second advice at Nationals for hand placement, etc, but will probably pinch at 55-60mm, somewhere in there. Much wider than I would have guessed was the most comfortable for me.

[barbe705]

I am also bad at narrow widths and best at 64mm. Getting the Europinch did make a difference but not a huge one for me. The main difference is in the 1HP which is considerably harder with a Euro set up compared to lifting a set up based on two 45's. The reason being that in the latter case the weight is far more centralised which makes the set up easier to control. Expect more gains in the 1HP (compared to having a go at the Euro with zero practise on it) if you get a Europinch as it makes the lift harder (as explained above).

I think I'll be doing the 64mm width at Nats. My hands prefer wide pinch. I suck at my ghetto 2HP at 49mm but if I slap two slick painted 45s at 65mm together with a pipe and pony clamps I jump an easy 20lbs. Then again I've never done a width in between those two.

And talking about 2HP training, it makes a huge difference in actual Euro performance. I've never touched one. It's expensive. Do I suffer, you betcha. If someone wants to be great at this they need to train on the real deal.

that may be because you're used to the thicker width. a lot of guys have that. over time using the real setup you'll want to go back and retest.

I also just came to the same conclusion. I was positive that 45-50mm somewhere was going to be perfect for me (based on measuring my hand as Horne describes). But I couldn't get even 90% of my max off the ground. Even at 75% of my max I was getting nasty thumb tears.

So last workout I tried 57mm which is close to the width of the 2x35s which I used to set my current PR in the first place. Suddenly I hopped a new PR off the ground. Not a complete lift, but so much stronger than the thinner widths. And no tears at all from the workout.

I still hope to get some last second advice at Nationals for hand placement, etc, but will probably pinch at 55-60mm, somewhere in there. Much wider than I would have guessed was the most comfortable for me.

[Ross Love]

Jedd I read your original post... here is my summary.

I had never tried a Euro when I posted that 106.. and I still do not own one. I have no doubt that if I did own one my lift would see a considerable increase... Maybe in the future.

I think Hand Size and Muscle Mass BOTH help on the 2HP.. Im not gonna say Body Weight anymore.. because in my opinion.. fat is just going to hinder your numbers when it comes to grip. Especially if it causes your hands to "thicken up".

One thing I think is more evident that ANYTHING in this list is.. the major majority of the guys on the list STRENGTH TRAIN their whole body. To me that is the difference maker.

[Mikael Siversson]

Fortunately this debate should come to a conclusion within two months. We already know that hand size is a relatively insignificant factor in the top 10 on the 2HP Euro set up, with Nick McKinless, David Horne and Martin Arildsson all having hands well below 8'' in length.

A few of us at least believe that bodyweight is a HIGHLY significant factor in pinching on the Euro setup. This hypothesis will be tested in the three legs of the WSH. I predict that there will be no lifter in the 82.5k class making it into the all time high 10 top in the 2HP (vs at least three in the below 8'' hand size category) and that the average in the top ten in the 82.5k class will be at least 20k lower than the average for guys above 82.5k class.

I suspect that fat may actually help in plate pinching (but not in blob lifting) as it provides you with more surface area but I would certainly not suggest that we separate lifters into bodyfat percentage classes as the correlation is most likely relatively weak.

No one is disputing that hand size helps in thickbar lifting. I also think that smaller hands represent an advantage in grippers with a MMS.

Regarding big guys and strength training, I will compete in the 82.5k category and I have done a tripple bodyweight deadlift in an IPF competition. Is that strong enough to be classified as a weight training individual? I have also (at a bodyweight of 210lbs) done a 660lbs IPF legal depth squat and bench pressed 390lbs with no gear IPF style. The thing is that it is extremely difficult to pinch heavy weights in the 2HP if you weight 82.5k (as no-one is able to do it at as we speak). At that weight tall individuals with a heavy bone structure would have very little muscle mass.

I think Hand Size and Muscle Mass BOTH help on the 2HP.. Im not gonna say Body Weight anymore.. because in my opinion.. fat is just going to hinder your numbers when it comes to grip. Especially if it causes your hands to "thicken up".

Edited July 14, 2011 by Mikael Siversson

[Jedd Johnson]

Fortunately this debate should come to a conclusion within two months. We already know that hand size is a relatively insignificant factor in the top 10 on the 2HP Euro set up, with Nick McKinless, David Horne and Martin Arildsson all having hands well below 8'' in length.

The event takes hand size out of the equation because it is a small implement, and beyond that it is adjustable. I don't think that is the same thing as saying hand size is not a related factor, but yes, we will see more data in a few months.

We will also see that the people who do the best on it will be the people who own or train on them often.

However, this is just one event, Mikael. We will have to look at the results of all events and compare body weight to see if hand size or weight classes are the best way to go to break up classes.

t is going to be interesting to see because none of the events in WSH really are hand size dependent.

[Mikael Siversson]

No doubt that training on the implement will help. Regarding bodyweight this particular thread was about the Europinch.

...However, this is just one event, Mikael...

[Jedd Johnson]

true

[jad]

I also think that smaller hands represent an advantage in grippers with a MMS.

Would have to strongly disagree with you here. I would think the set alone is much easier and that's huge. There will be exceptions like Mark Felix who are truly at somewhat of a disadvantage but Rob V's hands are over 9" and he still sets it right to parallel. Chad's are 9" and he does too. Of the top crush guys below how many have sub-8" hands?

Paul Knight

Gabriel Sum

Nathan Holle (maybe?)

Mobster

Chad

Heath

Dave Morton

Shane The Show Larsen

J. Vogt

Kevin Bussi (maybe ?)

Rich Williams

Tex

Martin A (yes)

Teemu (yes)