timstruse Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Going back to the debate about PB lockouts, I had originally argued against lockouts due to judging difficulty and potential inconsistencies. However, this was a non-issue during the comp and so far, not one competitor has posted whining about the judging of this event. Personally, as I watched the event I agreed with each of Doc's calls. So, as long as a skilled judge is present at future comps, I withdraw my argument! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 Going back to the debate about PB lockouts, I had originally argued against lockouts due to judging difficulty and potential inconsistencies. However, this was a non-issue during the comp and so far, not one competitor has posted whining about the judging of this event. Personally, as I watched the event I agreed with each of Doc's calls. So, as long as a skilled judge is present at future comps, I withdraw my argument! I fully agree with what you are saying Tim. It's been a while, but Doc has competed and he is also very accomplished. So he fully understands the mechanics of the lifts. I'd say Doc is the best judge in Grip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I 100% agree that Doc is the best judge out there. My 500lb PB attempt was probably the closest to lockout that got a red from him and I had no problem with the call then and after watching the video you can definitely tell my knees were locked but my hips were not as I lost my balance and fell forward. I actually took a still at the split second before I lost my balance and it was close but definitely not a good lift. Big props to a great judge! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 Guys, here is a list of the Sponsors for this year's National championship. There were a couple who commited to sending stuff but I did not receive anything here or at Chris's house by the time I left. FOr all I know it could have arrived at Chris's place since then or it could be at my post office box - I haven't been there in two days. So, what I did is I just put the names of the companies that did indeed send something below, along with the name of the contact person I have and their email address. I thought about writing a form letter for everyone but I don't think that would come off as very genuine with the sponsors and the people who donated cash, products, griplements, etc. So please, if you were at Nationals, take a moment to write each company contact at least a short note, especially if you received something from them or if you thought one of their products seemed interesting, or if you were just plain impressed by their donation. Several of the companies donated $100 worth of equipment and products, and as I have said, it is important to support and recognize the companies and people that support us. Off my soap box now - here's the list... Biofreeze - Darlene Scott - dscott@performancehealth.com Bob Lipinski - boblipinski@chartermi.net Durniat Strength - Andrew Durniat FarmStrength.com – Sean Dockery / Nick Rosendaul - docblob@gmail.com / Rosendaul614@aol.com Chris Rice - crice511@yahoo.com Grip 4orce - Jim Hartman - GRIP4ORCE@grip4orce.com HubGeezer – Mike Corlett – Hubgeezer on the Gripboard Iron Tamer Dave Whitley - irontamerdave@hotmail.com BuyOxygen4Energy.com – Tom McCarty - oxygen4energy@yahoo.com York Barbell – Tim Bonitz - tbonitz@yorkbarbell.com Salonpas - Caroline Christy - cchristy@zocalogroup.com Silverback Strength Equipment – Anson Castelvechi - squatnow@gmail.com StraightToTheBar.com - Scott Bird - scott@straighttothebar.com Swager Strength – Drew Kuespert - drew@swagerstrength.com Todd Coenen - tc_891@yahoo.com Total Performance Sports – murph@totalperformancesports.com Slaters Hardware - steve@slatershardware.com IronMind – Randall Strossen / Susan Altman - rjstrossen@ironmind.com / saltman@ironmind.com Grapple Grip - Mike - grapplegripinfo@gmail.com Thanks everyone! Jedd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubgeezer Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Here are just some random thoughts about Nationals in no particular order... Events Plateau Buster – My grip was definitely good for more but the back wasn’t going to go any higher safely so I quit. But I didn’t hurt myself so it was good. I’m not sure what I think of this as a grip test yet – I didn’t see anyone’s grip fail throughout the entire event – which should happen if grip is the limiting factor. It was a fun event and impressive seeing the big numbers – I’m just not sure about it as a pure grip test. I would be curious as to how this compares to the Brits' One Hand Lift. In general, I think the One Hand Lift numbers would be bigger than this Buster contraption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 The event is better than the 1 Hand Lift because no bracing is permitted. This event also tests pure support grip. The true definition of support grip is where the fingers support the load. Things like RT don't do this. That is open hand lifting. To a degree, although not as much, Axle is also open hand. It thus favors larger handed individuals. The plateau buster is smaller in size and thus larger handed people do not have the decided advantage over smaller hands. Also, since the handle is smaller, it will not pry the fingers open like RT, so you won't see as many people start a lift and fail in the middle of it. They will either get it, not be able to break it off the floor, or lose it at lockout because the weight is too heavy for their back or their form is off and they need to bail. It's not purely grip, because if your back isn't strong enough to lift the weight, then you are out of luck. Case in point, with my injury I could not do 260. In training, I got 430 and with the crowd, I think I could have gotten 470 or so, but that is all just speculation. My question is this: What is a good pure test of support strength that is not a Plateau Buster, a Vertical bar, or a thick rotating handle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timstruse Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I'm a fan of DO rack lockouts, oly bar, no hook. They don't tweak my back like the one-hand lifts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat 74 Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Loadable DB with a 6" long x 1"-1.25" diameter handle with 2" sleeves to load weight on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) What about dropping the ROM for the PB? I thought it was a great lift. On one hand, I really felt it in my hips with 470 and even with straps I don't think I could have locked out 480. That said, the highest my DL has ever been would have been around 450 and since I haven't done any lower body in almost 2 years, much less now. So if it's not pure grip, how am I keeping up with a 500#+ DL like Rindo? Then again, I'd guess Andrew and Adam were the two strongest DLs there. As to your original question, I think the HH is hard to beat. It is a PITA to build though and taking the slack out is half the lift. Edited July 21, 2011 by jad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel reinard Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Apologies, but what is a HH? I liked the PB. It was pretty fun and it seemed to be an exciting event. I liked it enough to order one yesterday. I'm a fan of axles but as it was said they are more hand size dependant. Despite that I still like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acorn Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 How about 1H DL on regular ply bar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubgeezer Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Years ago, in Southern California, we had a "trap bar hold for time" with 500 lbs total weight taken off of blocks fairly high. Every person was able to pick it up, some only for a few seconds. I would say some of us were sub-350 lb deadlifters at the time. At the Vise Grip Viking Challenge in LA, it was 700 lbs, and it was pulled from the floor with 4 inch risers on the trap bar. Andrew finished just behind Mark Felix on that event. For a grip contest at the "Nationals" level, I would say 550 lbs, pulled off of blocks, and it would truly be a "grip" feat, not a Strongman feat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 With my long femurs I have trouble fitting in a lot of trap bars. I believe Bob did somthing similar with high pic farmers handles in Michigan awhile back. He had different weights you could use though and more weight always beat more time. Which I think is a good idea. Otherwise, it just becomes a grip endurance event and you aren't really testing top end support grip strength, but more endurance. However, if you want to take back strength out of the equation, then you may have to go to a more endurance type event. At CGC last year, we did DO axle reps in 1 minute with 300lbs on a 1.92" pipe axle. I think we only had one person's overall strength failed before their grip did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 What about dropping the ROM for the PB? I thought it was a great lift. On one hand, I really felt it in my hips with 470 and even with straps I don't think I could have locked out 480. That said, the highest my DL has ever been would have been around 450 and since I haven't done any lower body in almost 2 years, much less now. So if it's not pure grip, how am I keeping up with a 500#+ DL like Rindo? Then again, I'd guess Andrew and Adam were the two strongest DLs there. It's because the bar fit your wee little hands better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 What about dropping the ROM for the PB? I thought it was a great lift. On one hand, I really felt it in my hips with 470 and even with straps I don't think I could have locked out 480. That said, the highest my DL has ever been would have been around 450 and since I haven't done any lower body in almost 2 years, much less now. So if it's not pure grip, how am I keeping up with a 500#+ DL like Rindo? Then again, I'd guess Andrew and Adam were the two strongest DLs there. It's because the bar fit your wee little hands better! And I didn't have on female footwear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 With my long femurs I have trouble fitting in a lot of trap bars. I believe Bob did somthing similar with high pic farmers handles in Michigan awhile back. He had different weights you could use though and more weight always beat more time. Which I think is a good idea. Otherwise, it just becomes a grip endurance event and you aren't really testing top end support grip strength, but more endurance. However, if you want to take back strength out of the equation, then you may have to go to a more endurance type event. At CGC last year, we did DO axle reps in 1 minute with 300lbs on a 1.92" pipe axle. I think we only had one person's overall strength failed before their grip did. You'll just need to get stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Bwaha Well played sir! it's actually not a strength issue with the trap bars. Long legged goofs like me have trouble fitting in some of them. The bigger ones are fine, but many of them don't fit over my legs pulling from the floor. And those were Chuck Taylors dagnabit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbe705 Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Bwaha Well played sir! it's actually not a strength issue with the trap bars. Long legged goofs like me have trouble fitting in some of them. The bigger ones are fine, but many of them don't fit over my legs pulling from the floor. And those were Chuck Taylors dagnabit! with 2 farmers handles like bob had the leg size issue isn't there. also, the farmers handles are harder to control. that taxes the grip more and will help keep the weights a bit lower for those with whole body issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Bwaha Well played sir! it's actually not a strength issue with the trap bars. Long legged goofs like me have trouble fitting in some of them. The bigger ones are fine, but many of them don't fit over my legs pulling from the floor. And those were Chuck Taylors dagnabit! with 2 farmers handles like bob had the leg size issue isn't there. also, the farmers handles are harder to control. that taxes the grip more and will help keep the weights a bit lower for those with whole body issues. Agreed! High pick farmers with 3 - 4 weights to choose from and weight beats time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubgeezer Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Bwaha Well played sir! it's actually not a strength issue with the trap bars. Long legged goofs like me have trouble fitting in some of them. The bigger ones are fine, but many of them don't fit over my legs pulling from the floor. And those were Chuck Taylors dagnabit! with 2 farmers handles like bob had the leg size issue isn't there. also, the farmers handles are harder to control. that taxes the grip more and will help keep the weights a bit lower for those with whole body issues. Agreed! High pick farmers with 3 - 4 weights to choose from and weight beats time. At first, seems like a bad idea to me, as the strongest guys wins, not the best grip. Think about it a bit more. The "Elite" division should be able to handle more than the Open, and the Open should handle more than the Novice. Ultimately, the weight selection is going to be relatively similar in the different divisions. The Novice who chooses a weight heavier than some of the Open guys is making quite a splash, and the open guy who picks a weight that the Elite guys are using is also making a statement. And the geezers and the not-so-strong can pick a weight they can handle. It would probably work out in such a way that it would be different enough to make it all interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 I have no problem at all with High Pick Farmers. I was thinking more along the lines of a max weight though, personally. Not to say any of these are BAD ideas. They are all good. I appreciate the participation here the last few weeks. It's been really awesome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Bwaha Well played sir! it's actually not a strength issue with the trap bars. Long legged goofs like me have trouble fitting in some of them. The bigger ones are fine, but many of them don't fit over my legs pulling from the floor. And those were Chuck Taylors dagnabit! It's your story, you tell it how you want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I have no problem at all with High Pick Farmers. I was thinking more along the lines of a max weight though, personally. Not to say any of these are BAD ideas. They are all good. I appreciate the participation here the last few weeks. It's been really awesome! I personally like high pick farmers for max weight too. I just worry about the guys who physically can't pick over 600lbs (300/hand) from any height. The pick would have to be high enough not to overly penalize the weaker competitors for sure. 2' pick to lockout and down signal from judge sounds about right. And that's an event that would benefit shorter guys (who probably have smaller hands), so it takes out the big hand/big guy argument a bit. At least until the weights start getting above 350/hand. Then the biggest, strongest guys are still going to dominate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbe705 Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I have no problem at all with High Pick Farmers. I was thinking more along the lines of a max weight though, personally. Not to say any of these are BAD ideas. They are all good. I appreciate the participation here the last few weeks. It's been really awesome! I personally like high pick farmers for max weight too. I just worry about the guys who physically can't pick over 600lbs (300/hand) from any height. The pick would have to be high enough not to overly penalize the weaker competitors for sure. 2' pick to lockout and down signal from judge sounds about right. And that's an event that would benefit shorter guys (who probably have smaller hands), so it takes out the big hand/big guy argument a bit. At least until the weights start getting above 350/hand. Then the biggest, strongest guys are still going to dominate. at some point strength will always be a factor. this is a form of strength comp. the high pick eliminates whole body issues as much as possible. also, we could just use mats to bring the height up or down slighty for different height guys. there are essentially no pure grip events that will test only lower arm without bringing anything else into. I have a 1/2 destroyed lower back and accept that as a limitation. that doesn't mean I would expect others to change events so you son't have to lift anything heavy. on the other hand, I do not consider something like mixed grip deadlift to be a good event just because grip may be a limitor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Gripmas will be held on our community climbing wall - unroped. If your grip can't "support" you - you fall 24'. Pure enough for you? Hehe! I'm not sure there is a really good answer to this question. When weights start hitting 600# in any one hand lift - there is more involved than "just" grip strength. That is some serious overall body strength too - and for some the grip will fail first, for others the body first. One concern to me is the injury risk with one hand lifts in general (personal experience here). If (or when) something goes wrong in a very heavy one hand lift, the consequences are going to be pretty high. I think a two handed and evenly loaded lift - even with bigger possible weights - might be a safer way to do it on any event where the weights will tend to be extremely heavy. Some kind of short ROM rack pull or Farmers high pick perhaps? And yes people like me are possibly going to lose out because of body strength, but I'm not sure how else to do it. The Hercules Hold perhaps? Discounting for the moment the equipment issues - what do you think of it as a support strength event? It at least does not seem to be overall body strength related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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