5/3/1 Discussion Thread

[Autolupus]

I just had a go:

[The Natural]

At least theoretically, doing 5/3/1 in the following way may prove more beneficial for some than the way Wendler describes it.

In terms of four week waves, the first wave would be based on 95 percent (medium). Then the second would be based on 90 (light). Then the third would be based on 102 or 103 percent (heavy). After the deload week of the third wave, you'd max again, shooting for 102 to 103 percent of your old max, but at minimum, a 5 pound increase.

Then you'd reset to 95 percent of your new max, assuming you hit a new max, and do it over.

This way, you're not training for very lengthy periods of time with weights that are too light.

Alternatively, you could just hit a training max every four weeks, in each of the lifts, and then do 5/3/1 with 95 percent of your max. Then max again at the end of the four weeks, shooting for sensible PR's (even 2.5 pounds is okay). Then work with 95 percent of the new number, only doing a 4 week cycle with 90 percent if you feel really run down for whatever reason.

Edited April 30, 2010 by The Natural

[timstruse]

At least theoretically, doing 5/3/1 in the following way may prove more beneficial for some than the way Wendler describes it.

In terms of four week waves, the first wave would be based on 95 percent (medium). Then the second would be based on 90 (light). Then the third would be based on 102 or 103 percent (heavy). After the deload week of the third wave, you'd max again, shooting for 102 to 103 percent of your old max, but at minimum, a 5 pound increase.

Then you'd reset to 95 percent of your new max, assuming you hit a new max, and do it over.

This way, you're not training for very lengthy periods of time with weights that are too light.

Alternatively, you could just hit a training max every four weeks, in each of the lifts, and then do 5/3/1 with 95 percent of your max. Then max again at the end of the four weeks, shooting for sensible PR's (even 2.5 pounds is okay). Then work with 95 percent of the new number, only doing a 4 week cycle with 90 percent if you feel really run down for whatever reason.

What you recommend in "Alternatively..." is exactly the same modification I made to the program after tweaking it for my own needs over the last 7 months. I think you're onto something, and I appreciate the productive thought you've put into this.

[djukac]

I just read over the 5/3/1 e-book. Here are my criticisms.

If you compete, this may not be the best program. He says flat out that improving one's 5 rep max is just as good as improving one's one rep max.

For a powerlifter, it is not.

Let me give you an exmaple.

Here's me back in September of 2009, a sweaty miserable day at Metroflex.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEr4p93i1aY

Now, I did not even tie my PR with this set. I did this exact same number back in Nov. or Dec. of 2008. Around that same time I also did 585x6, adding one rep in about 2-3 weeks.

Now, fast forward to 2010. Eight days after a competition, I get a wild hair up my ass and decide to rep out on 585.

http://www.ironscene.com/videos/4206

Here I am, thicker, bigger, sexier, than in Sept. of 2009. Yet I only get two more reps, and truthfully that 7th rep would not pass in any federation. Saying I hit a PR here is a bit of a stretch. Let's say I really didn't hit a PR.

Now you've got to be asking yourself at this point....

Rex, you're telling me that in OVER TWO YEARS, you haven't increased your 585 rep out PR?

Yeah, that's right.

But guess what?

My one rep max has gone up over 60 pounds since then.

So my point is this, if you're an advanced powerlifter, all that formula crap he talks about is half truths and lies. If you want to know if you're one rep max has gone up, then you need to max out. Period. Don't trust those formulas, and don't get all excited if you're hitting rep PR's when really your goal is to hit 1RM PR's.

So there. Getting PR's on those all-out sets is fine and dandy, but you may be fooling yourself.

Now that's some real talk

The same thing that Rex is saying is similarry mentioned by Brooks Kubik, and it has a point.

[climber511]

That reminds me of something Dan John says about his "one lift a day" program. He said he keeps getting asked if its OK to do 2 - 3 - or 4 lifts a day. Sure it is but it's no longer one lift a day. Same with your modification - sure it's maybe a good or better program but its no longer 5 - 3 - 1 anymore. When you do a "program" and then start making changes to it - its no longer that program. There is nothing wrong with that and that's pretty much what everyone does - but it is no longer the original and shouldn't be called such anymore. I was asked to and spent quite a bit of time writing up a program for someone with a certain result in mind - they did something a million miles away from what I gave them and got no results - then of course told everyone my program didn't work. Go figure?

[The Natural]

That reminds me of something Dan John says about his "one lift a day" program. He said he keeps getting asked if its OK to do 2 - 3 - or 4 lifts a day. Sure it is but it's no longer one lift a day. Same with your modification - sure it's maybe a good or better program but its no longer 5 - 3 - 1 anymore. When you do a "program" and then start making changes to it - its no longer that program. There is nothing wrong with that and that's pretty much what everyone does - but it is no longer the original and shouldn't be called such anymore. I was asked to and spent quite a bit of time writing up a program for someone with a certain result in mind - they did something a million miles away from what I gave them and got no results - then of course told everyone my program didn't work. Go figure?

Probably not 5/3/1, yeah, but I'm just offering it as food for thought. Assuming 5 pound jumps and a 500 pound max, just to make the math easier, for each four week wave, we're moving at this pace:

90%

91%

92%

93%

94%

95%

...

Now, the only reason I can figure for "sneaking up" on 95% of your max (or "sneaking up" on any work weight) over the course of 20 weeks (or any other lengthy period of time) is that you'll trick your body into blasting past this troublesome sticking point. That's kind of the point, right? We back off a little, take baby steps, then smash through an old barrier.

But is 95 percent something we really need to worry about blasting through? That seems like a gimme work weight. The one we really need to work on blasting through is 100%!

So why not apply Wendler's method of "sneaking up" on a sticking point, but this time apply it to a REAL STICKING POINT?

So it seems safe to start with 95 percent, and use other techniques for sneaking up on 100 percent.

I described two in my last post.

Edited May 1, 2010 by The Natural

[climber511]

I think the point behind 5-3-1 is aimed more at the very long term - perhaps decades - while your idea I think is more competition oriented. Both have their place depending on one's goals. I think we both see the workout the same way but trying to take it to different places at differing time frames.

[timstruse]

I understand Wendler is writing a new version of 5/3/1 specifically for competitive powerlifting. Going by the title, the intended result of the original version of 5/3/1 was "raw strength," not necessarily the biggest PL total.

[anson]

Anson - I have done them as recently as a couple years ago - it's not something I can do just anytime - but a few months and I can (or could anyway. Usually by the time I can do 30 or so on my knees, I start using one leg down on my knee and one up for a few sessions and then I'm good to go. It does flare up your low back if you aren't careful - especially at my height - it ends up being a long way between my hands and feet.

Chris, at your height that takes some damn strong abdominals. Jesse Marunde once told me that the ab wheel was the only direct ab work he did, I assume he did them kneeling because the guy was 300+ lbs.

[The Chuck]

So I was looking for a change and after taking this week off after the CGC, decided to take 531 for a spin for the rest of the year in hopes of hitting some goals that have been bugging me. Im laying out the first cycle right now and realizing, compared to my maxes, I was NOT lifting heavy enough for my bench and military with my current workout plan. Looking forward to the new system!

[climber511]

So I was looking for a change and after taking this week off after the CGC, decided to take 531 for a spin for the rest of the year in hopes of hitting some goals that have been bugging me. Im laying out the first cycle right now and realizing, compared to my maxes, I was NOT lifting heavy enough for my bench and military with my current workout plan. Looking forward to the new system!

Chuck - often times what we think we are doing and what we are really doing are quite different. 531 at least gives structure to your workouts and varies both volume and intensity. It's a sort of variation of the way old heavy - medium - light system from way back but with more structure and throwing in some % stuff. Come to think of it - it isn't like anything else really - but I think its a good plan for many people.

Edited May 14, 2010 by climber511

[The Chuck]

First workout today with 5-3-1, cant wait to get home and start this ball rolling. This will also be my first workout with my new Olympic bar, sitting there waiting for me on my front porch according to UPS! Up until now everything Ive done has been with my 2" solid axle. Military Press w/Big Boring assistance work today.

[Guest Bullitt]

First workout today with 5-3-1, cant wait to get home and start this ball rolling. This will also be my first workout with my new Olympic bar, sitting there waiting for me on my front porch according to UPS! Up until now everything Ive done has been with my 2" solid axle. Military Press w/Big Boring assistance work today.

I swung by and picked it up for you Chuck. Left my old 32# bar for you. Just wanted to make sure nobody stole the new one.

[Shoggoth]

I'm thinking about going back to a structured workout again with this as well. Tonight's the first night as well.

[The Chuck]

Hehe, I bet my 6ft Olympic bar is still heavier than that 32lber you were using, HA!

[The Chuck]

First workout in the books, and the new bar worked well. My new 6ft bar came in at 36.5lbs which makes Mike's 32lb 7 fter seem even more ridiculous My question is, where do you guys fit in grip work? Do you skip some assistance work or just add the grip work on at the end?

Military Press:

85x5,95x5,105x5,120x5,135x7

Chins and Pulls:10,8,8,6,6

Supersetted with

Military Press:85lbsx10,10,10,10,10

[Shoggoth]

First workout in the books, and the new bar worked well. My new 6ft bar came in at 36.5lbs which makes Mike's 32lb 7 fter seem even more ridiculous My question is, where do you guys fit in grip work? Do you skip some assistance work or just add the grip work on at the end?

Military Press:

85x5,95x5,105x5,120x5,135x7

Chins and Pulls:10,8,8,6,6

Supersetted with

Military Press:85lbsx10,10,10,10,10

I started last night as well. Did some gripper work in between sets of presses then alternated v-bar & Euro during my chins and dips. It seemed to work well. I'm thinking of doing some wrist work during my pulls tonight.

[acorn]

First workout in the books, and the new bar worked well. My new 6ft bar came in at 36.5lbs which makes Mike's 32lb 7 fter seem even more ridiculous My question is, where do you guys fit in grip work? Do you skip some assistance work or just add the grip work on at the end?

Military Press:

85x5,95x5,105x5,120x5,135x7

Chins and Pulls:10,8,8,6,6

Supersetted with

Military Press:85lbsx10,10,10,10,10

I typically do my 5/3/1 lifts in the morning before work and my grip stuff during lunch time or after work. So split sessions for me.

- Aaron

[The Chuck]

Thanks for the ideas, Aaron.

Is anyone interested in a full 8 cycle Excel Spreadsheet? Its basically automated, all you have to do is enter your 90% maxes and the date of the week you starting on. It then lays out 32 full weeks of main lifts from there.

[blueviper42]

Chuck, that would be great if you could share that.

[The Chuck]

Everyone who wants a copy, PM me email addresses and I will send it out.

[blueviper42]

How effective is it to only squat one day a week? I'm doing it 3x a week now, and once a week doesn't seem like enough to make gains. How has this worked for you guys?

[anson]

How effective is it to only squat one day a week? I'm doing it 3x a week now, and once a week doesn't seem like enough to make gains. How has this worked for you guys?

It's plenty for me- best thing to do is try and see how you respond.

[The Natural]

How effective is it to only squat one day a week? I'm doing it 3x a week now, and once a week doesn't seem like enough to make gains. How has this worked for you guys?

Yeah, best to experiment. I've had some good results with daily squatting, but I also have made gains with once a week squatting.

[djukac]

It seems it's old news, published almost a year ago, that Wendler is going to release, if not by now, 5/3/1 powerlifting with more focus on ... you've guessed it one rep maxes . The change in the program seems to be only alternating the 5x5 with 3x3 weeks and adding singles in the first and third week of the cycle. My guess is that on the last sets there won't be + in order to have strength to perform the singles which seems logical. I'm curious what is your opinion on this. Here is the link http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/531_reloaded

Edited January 8, 2011 by djukac