5/3/1 Discussion Thread

[anson]

I recently went through 4 cycles of the program. I trained on a MWF split, so each cycle took 5 weeks. I felt I benefitted from extra recovery time. Occasionally circumstances dictated I train on consecutive days. I think the impact of this depends on the lift, and obviously what assistance you're doing. I found unsurprisingly my overhead pressing was down the day after deadlifts and shrugs.

I did grippers on lower body days, pinch on upper body days and running on one of the off days.

I would say I made reasonable if unspectacular gains, kind of what the program is geared towards. As the weights got heavier towards the end, the volume did feel very low. I think if I had been continuing the program I would have taken the weights back down, although I hadn't stalled in the sense of not being able to complete the minimum required reps. I will definitely revisit it at some point later in the year.

Why did you stop if you were making progress?

[mbcx6pmw]

I have some endurance events coming up and it doesn't quite fit in with my training plans for that. Plus I find I get stale on one program for an extended period, just a mental thing really. That said, switching around the assistance work still allows for plenty of variety.

[The Natural]

I just read over the 5/3/1 e-book. Here are my criticisms.

If you compete, this may not be the best program. He says flat out that improving one's 5 rep max is just as good as improving one's one rep max.

For a powerlifter, it is not.

Let me give you an exmaple.

Here's me back in September of 2009, a sweaty miserable day at Metroflex.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEr4p93i1aY

Now, I did not even tie my PR with this set. I did this exact same number back in Nov. or Dec. of 2008. Around that same time I also did 585x6, adding one rep in about 2-3 weeks.

Now, fast forward to 2010. Eight days after a competition, I get a wild hair up my ass and decide to rep out on 585.

http://www.ironscene.com/videos/4206

Here I am, thicker, bigger, sexier, than in Sept. of 2009. Yet I only get two more reps, and truthfully that 7th rep would not pass in any federation. Saying I hit a PR here is a bit of a stretch. Let's say I really didn't hit a PR.

Now you've got to be asking yourself at this point....

Rex, you're telling me that in OVER TWO YEARS, you haven't increased your 585 rep out PR?

Yeah, that's right.

But guess what?

My one rep max has gone up over 60 pounds since then.

So my point is this, if you're an advanced powerlifter, all that formula crap he talks about is half truths and lies. If you want to know if you're one rep max has gone up, then you need to max out. Period. Don't trust those formulas, and don't get all excited if you're hitting rep PR's when really your goal is to hit 1RM PR's.

So there. Getting PR's on those all-out sets is fine and dandy, but you may be fooling yourself.

[tselegala]

Edited April 25, 2010 by alexis

[tselegala]

He kinda puts things in perspective here

[The Natural]

For the guys doing 5/3/1, why are you so confident that you'll live long enough for it to give big gains? I'm being serious here. When guys start telling me that they don't think in terms of 10 week increments, but are thinking about building strength "long term", like over a period of years, I think they are being a little presumptuous and taking life for granted. What makes you think you're going to live that long? I am pretty sure I can make it another 10 weeks. A few more years, that's totally up in the air. I want a program that will give me gains in 10 weeks. That's about all I feel I'm assured of.

Basically, you 5/3/1 guys take life for granted and need to grow up a little.

[Rick Walker]

I am not really sure why you jumped in this thread, like you do most, and decided to tear everyone down. Tim started this discussion as a way for people who are doing 5/3/1 to discuss how they are setting it up, what assistance work they are doing, how they are incorperating grip, etc. He didnt start the thread by saying, "EVERY SINGLE POWERLIFTER IN THE WORLD SHOULD BE DOING 5/3/1 BECAUSE IT IS LIKE THE HAND OF GOD!" Had he made that statement, I would understand your attacks Rex.

I see that a lot out of you Rex. "Westside sucks!" "5/3/1 sucks!" What ever happened to, "I, personally don't like "XXXX" program, but if it is working for you, then keep training hard." I guess that isnt confrontational enough for you. Far be it for you to provide encouragement for ANYONE Rex!

I don't much care what program anyone is on. I like 5/3/1. It fits MY busy schedule with a wife, 4 kids, and a 42.5 hour a week job that requires my time BEFORE lifting does. I don't train for any other reason then to better ME and to set an example for my kids that there is no excuse to not be in shape and be strong. Powerlifting is a HOBBY, much like my motorcycles, my tattoos, and love of hunting and fishing.

I think you will find, for most of us, that is all this is. We don't want to wreck our bodies in 10 years. 10 years from now I want to be able to play football with my kids in the yard and not feel like an old man. Hence the reason that even though I train with weights, I also do interval training on my pedal bike 3 times a week. Gotta keep that ticker healthy and be able to run around with the little ones.

That being said, I am excited to get back to competing and I am excited to see how 5/3/1 continues to work for me. September will be me judgement day as far as if the rep work is going to help. I havent competed since 2007, and that was in gear, so it will be interesting. My long term goals are to squat 700, bench press 400, and deadlift 800 raw and DRUG FREE @ 220. I know I am going to get there, I just have to put the time in. I don't need to be there by September.

For the guys doing 5/3/1, why are you so confident that you'll live long enough for it to give big gains? I'm being serious here. When guys start telling me that they don't think in terms of 10 week increments, but are thinking about building strength "long term", like over a period of years, I think they are being a little presumptuous and taking life for granted. What makes you think you're going to live that long? I am pretty sure I can make it another 10 weeks. A few more years, that's totally up in the air. I want a program that will give me gains in 10 weeks. That's about all I feel I'm assured of.

Basically, you 5/3/1 guys take life for granted and need to grow up a little.

This was an all time classic post. Rex, come on, you aren't promised your next breath! Being confident you are going to live 10 more weeks is just as a absurd as being confident that you are going to live 2 more years!

I don't take any breath for granted, especially with little ones. Once you have seen your son born blue and not breathing, you know how quickly life can be taken from you. One thing is for certain, if I am on my death bed next week, month, year, 20 years from now, the last thing I am going to care about is my total. My concern will be for my wife. My concern will be did I live to be a good enough example for my children, so that they may grow up to be confident men and women, that take life by the horns and achieve their dreams. That treat people with respect, that help those who are in need, and that value friendships over their own personal agendas.

Speaking of growin up Rex, you could do a little...

-Rick

[tselegala]

I don't take any breath for granted, especially with little ones. Once you have seen your son born blue and not breathing, you know how quickly life can be taken from you. One thing is for certain, if I am on my death bed next week, month, year, 20 years from now, the last thing I am going to care about is my total. My concern will be for my wife. My concern will be did I live to be a good enough example for my children, so that they may grow up to be confident men and women, that take life by the horns and achieve their dreams. That treat people with respect, that help those who are in need, and that value friendships over their own personal agendas.

-Rick

I was not going to post in this thread ever again due to the damage i may have unconsciously done to it already..but after reading this, i feel compelled to mention that your a heck of a good man Rick. There is not a doubt in my mind that you're kids will turn out as good as well.

[Bill Piche]

5/3/1 is a very good common sense program.

[timstruse]

Rick, I think life will turn Rex's head around and we don't need to do it for him. In the legal profession we refer to him as a deal-killer: i.e., one who can only focus on the negative, one who can only criticize and not create, one who can only pick fights and not find solutions. They're nasty to everyone and they condescendingly nit-pick everything and everyone. They will sacrifice a friend for the sake of making an insignificant point, as we just witnessed. Their clients become very unhappy when they realize they're paying someone top dollar for destroying their relationships. The deal-killer burns all his bridges in the community and therefore can never develop his own practice, damning himself to 80 hours a week as a whipping boy in a big firm, representing greedy insurance companies and forever stuck in an adversarial, superficial and petty hell. Rather than trying to respond directly and set him straight, I want him to experience it head-on without having the courtesy of a warning from someone who has been through it. As you mentioned, a wife, children, a real job, and an unrelenting mortgage payment should also help his perspective. I also had the experience of watching my blue baby being whisked off to the NICU by frantic nurses while my wife wept and bled. I don't blame him for wanting to achieve as much as possible in a very short period of time, because he doesn't have long before life becomes very real, and at that point his impressive 3-lift total means zero.

Back to the point, in the 6 months since I started 5/3/1 my total for the 4 lifts has increased by 170 pounds. I've never said the program is for everyone and I do agree with Rex's point about perhaps not being ideal for elite powerlifters. However, I am obviously not an elite powerlifter and therefore do not care about Rex's point. The program has done great things for me: I've made significant and constant progress without injury for the longest period of time ever in my life.

I'll say it again: this thread is not intended for a debate about the merits of 5/3/1 as a program. If you want to be a troll, do it somewhere else.

[climber511]

Wendler spent his 10 years at the top of the Powerlifting game. 5-3-1 is what he seemingly came up with to do after that - something a man might do for his remaining years - however long that might be.

[barbe705]

I go to a powerlifting specific gym. a number of the guys there are on 5/3/1 and have gotten a lot out of it. it seems like a lot of people never now when to take time off. they all talk about how the built in deload has really made a big difference to them.

[The Natural]

I go to a powerlifting specific gym. a number of the guys there are on 5/3/1 and have gotten a lot out of it. it seems like a lot of people never now when to take time off. they all talk about how the built in deload has really made a big difference to them.

I never said it wasn't a good program. I wouldn't know really whether it is or isn't, when considered apart from any specific context. I do know that rep strength is undeniably different for advanced lifters than 1RM strength, and that hitting rep PR's is no indication that one's 1RM is increasing. Wendler does not give this point nearly the attention it deserves.

If you need to use 5/3/1 to know how a deload week works, then that is fine, but it's hardly specific to 5/3/1. I can't think of a single program, really, besides Broz style training and classic linear periodization, that does not use deloads.

5/3/1 involves taking a lot of things for granted. Consider an 800 pound squatter, who has recently hit 800 for the first time. 90 percent of his max is 720. That would be Jim's recommendation for a starting point. Assuming 10 pound jumps in stipulated max per 4 week cycle, it will take 32 weeks to reach the point where you're using numbers based off your max from 8 or so months prior.

I can promise you that if you go 32 weeks working with numbers that are based on a max that is less than your best, and you are a highly trained athlete, by the time you reach 800 again as a working max, you will have lost some high end motor skills and probably some high end strength too. That's just the way it is for highly trained athletes, regardless of whether she's a strength athlete or a tennis player or a long distance runner. You can't work with poundages that are "too light" (Wendler's words) or you will become detrained. It's as simple as that.

I am not suggesting any sort of elitism to the extent that if a program does not work for elite athletes, it's no good at all. I don't think that. But nevertheless, for some athletes, the program has drawbacks, and whether for the sake of mere education or for practical application, some may find this valuable.

[underdawg]

I don't the 5/3/1 program is the "end-all-be-all" of training templates, but I do think it's pretty dang good for what I need right now. My time is at a premium right now, and I just don't have 2-3 hours to devote to training every day. This program allows me to get out in the garage, knock out a quickie, and make constant and steady progression. My wife has started training with me, too, so time is really important. Since the weather's nice now our kids play outside while we train, but somebody still has to fix supper.

I've set some PR's on the program in the past, but I was also doing a ton of strongman event training, so it's hard to tell exactly what to attribute the gains to. Since I've quit strongman the PR's aren't coming nearly as frequently, but then again I'm not eating like it's my job right now either.

[unseenbeat]

5/3/1 is a very good common sense program.

The best, most concise post in this thread. +1

Sure is hot in this thread.

[gunnar]

do you go from the deload week right into the next cycle?

[acorn]

do you go from the deload week right into the next cycle?

Yes, you do just that adding 5-10# to the working 90% Max you base the calculations from.

[Rick Walker]

Depends on how much you are able to handle. Look forward to your goal then work backwards from a it. For the goals I have in September, I need to go up 20 per cycle on the deadlift and 15 on the squat and bench.

If you are doing it just for strength over time, the 5-10 pounds will be just about right.

[anson]

This is my deload week. For deload I don't do any spinal loading movements, I'll swing the bell, club, work arms, do single limb prehab type work, or just sit around and kick back the entire week. I let my body tell me what to do for this rest week. My past cycle looked like this:

Mon

Fat bar push press

Incline curls

Tri extensions

Standing ab wheel

Wen

Front squats

Banded cambered bar back squats

Fri

Incline fat bar bench in rack, bottom start

Weighted chins

Weighted dips

Standing ab wheel

Mon

DL

Banded cambered bar good morning

Standing ab wheel

I'll stay with this plan for about 6 months, then maybe replace the OH fat bar with the log and switch some of my accessory movements.

[barbe705]

Standing ab wheel

what is standing ab wheel?

[climber511]

Standing ab wheel

what is standing ab wheel?

Brent - it's very hard - but very secret guru type stuff Most of us mortals do them on our knees. If you decide to try it - please video it as the violent face plant is usually pretty funny.

[anson]

Standing ab wheel

what is standing ab wheel?

Brent - it's very hard - but very secret guru type stuff Most of us mortals do them on our knees. If you decide to try it - please video it as the violent face plant is usually pretty funny.

HAHA, Chris it's really not that hard to work up to. Start kneeling, next do a standing negative with the assistance of a miniband, standing negative, then finally try reversing from the ground. I think 3 months is a reasonable time frame to get there. I can say this much- it works my abs like nothing else. Recently I asked my gym director why there was no ab wheel there, I was told "people will hurt their low backs on those things!"

[hamil1km]

I just read over the 5/3/1 e-book. Here are my criticisms.

If you compete, this may not be the best program. He says flat out that improving one's 5 rep max is just as good as improving one's one rep max.

For a powerlifter, it is not.

Let me give you an exmaple.

Here's me back in September of 2009, a sweaty miserable day at Metroflex.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEr4p93i1aY

Now, I did not even tie my PR with this set. I did this exact same number back in Nov. or Dec. of 2008. Around that same time I also did 585x6, adding one rep in about 2-3 weeks.

Now, fast forward to 2010. Eight days after a competition, I get a wild hair up my ass and decide to rep out on 585.

http://www.ironscene.com/videos/4206

Here I am, thicker, bigger, sexier, than in Sept. of 2009. Yet I only get two more reps, and truthfully that 7th rep would not pass in any federation. Saying I hit a PR here is a bit of a stretch. Let's say I really didn't hit a PR.

Now you've got to be asking yourself at this point....

Rex, you're telling me that in OVER TWO YEARS, you haven't increased your 585 rep out PR?

Yeah, that's right.

But guess what?

My one rep max has gone up over 60 pounds since then.

So my point is this, if you're an advanced powerlifter, all that formula crap he talks about is half truths and lies. If you want to know if you're one rep max has gone up, then you need to max out. Period. Don't trust those formulas, and don't get all excited if you're hitting rep PR's when really your goal is to hit 1RM PR's.

So there. Getting PR's on those all-out sets is fine and dandy, but you may be fooling yourself.

Now that's some real talk

[climber511]

Anson - I have done them as recently as a couple years ago - it's not something I can do just anytime - but a few months and I can (or could anyway. Usually by the time I can do 30 or so on my knees, I start using one leg down on my knee and one up for a few sessions and then I'm good to go. It does flare up your low back if you aren't careful - especially at my height - it ends up being a long way between my hands and feet.

[barbe705]

Anson - I have done them as recently as a couple years ago - it's not something I can do just anytime - but a few months and I can (or could anyway. Usually by the time I can do 30 or so on my knees, I start using one leg down on my knee and one up for a few sessions and then I'm good to go. It does flare up your low back if you aren't careful - especially at my height - it ends up being a long way between my hands and feet.

I thought it was something different than the ab wheel. I keep meaning to add that into my rotation and then forgetting. I'll try to get you that face plant video.