5/3/1 Discussion Thread

[timstruse]

Since several Gripboard members are now following this program, I thought I'd open up a discussion on anything specific to 5/3/1: questions, observations, results, et al.

Here are a few starter topics:

Integrating grip and bending training with 5/3/1;

How people are splitting their training days;

How people are using and rotating their auxiliary schemes.

Here's the routine I've been following with some success:

Monday - off

Tuesday - press + big but boring + bending

Wednesday - deadlift (as many double overhand as possible) + DO axle (sumo DL, RDL, lockouts, power shrugs or holds for time) + thick handle dumbbell rows or thick handle pull-ups

Thursday - off

Friday - bench + big but boring + arms

Saturday - squat + big but boring + abs

Sunday - grippers, pinch, misc grip

[anson]

Jonathan Creason introduced me to 5/3/1 a little over a year ago. I've made great progress, I'm stronger and 20 pounds less fat. I do the basic three day a week lifting plan, each WO lasts about 40-45 min. On my off days I'll do a little rope skipping or walking, something active recovery. On Saturdays if I'm in the mood I'll do a little strongman stuff- tire flip, stones, sled, or whatever. The built in deload week is one of the things that make this program awesome. Buy the eBook and never look back!

[Rick Walker]

I am doing it like this:

Day 1

-Squats

-pause squats

-abs

Day 2

-Bench press

-back exercise

-back exercise

Day 3

-Deadlift

-Shrugs

-Superman's

Day 4

-Close grip bench

-Dips

-Triceps exercise

On off days I ride my bike in the trainer for 30 minutes of intervals and do neck and grip work.

Thats about it. Can't say much since I am only 1 week in. Give me a couple months through it and I will know better.

-Rick

[Martin Gaisser]

I too have gotten great results with the program. I've put 100lb on my 4 main lifts but I know the bigest part of it is because I'm just starting out but I'm still sold on the program. I'm 4 months in and now in my second round of the KTA program. I am also doing the Boring But Big routine but I changed my schedule up so I work through it Mon Wed Fri Mon. My alternate excercises are pulldowns, strap chrunches, dumbell rows and leg curls. And I also work up to max effort on the 5 3 1 days of course I try to leave a couple in the tank.

[timstruse]

Jonathan Creason introduced me to 5/3/1 a little over a year ago. I've made great progress, I'm stronger and 20 pounds less fat. I do the basic three day a week lifting plan, each WO lasts about 40-45 min. On my off days I'll do a little rope skipping or walking, something active recovery. On Saturdays if I'm in the mood I'll do a little strongman stuff- tire flip, stones, sled, or whatever. The built in deload week is one of the things that make this program awesome. Buy the eBook and never look back!

Best $20 I ever spent - by far the best program I've ever tried.

[Cannon]

Sorry if this is a bonehead question, and I could probably just Google the answer, but others might benefit as well, so I'll ask...

What's 5/3/1?

Do you do 5 reps, 3 reps, then 1 rep for a workout?

[Rick Walker]

5/3/1

[timstruse]

Sorry if this is a bonehead question, and I could probably just Google the answer, but others might benefit as well, so I'll ask...

What's 5/3/1?

Do you do 5 reps, 3 reps, then 1 rep for a workout?

It's a program by Jim Wendler from EliteFTS. Here's a link:

http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?m=PD&cid=370&pid=2976

The program is built around 4-week cycles. You do 5 reps, 3 reps, and 1+ reps only on Week 3. (The "+" means it's an open set, do as many as you can.) The foregoing was a totally incomplete summary of the program - just wanted to try and explain why it's called 5/3/1.

[anson]

Older 5/3/1 thread here http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?showtopic=31360&st=0&p=448310&hl=jim%20wendler&fromsearch=1entry448310

[The Hack]

Sorry if this is a bonehead question,

What's 5/3/1?

It is kinda wierd question as this is most popular training program that exist on earth.It is ultimate universal power program, best you can find and it is very simple and relatively new(2009).

Lets sum up:

1st week you do repout with weight you can lift 10+ times(only 1set)

2nd repout with 6+(1set)

3rd repout with 3+(1set)

4th week is deload week.

Training looks like this:

90 x5

120x5

150x5

180x5

and then final weight:

210 on repout

It is goal to do as meny reps you can in one set.

Thats it. Then you go in other exercise and do the same.There is split on upper and lower body parts,each you do twice a week.

Actually program is copy from Arthur Jones HIT method, only adjusted a bit with larger rest btw sets and exercises for strength.

In reality it can work for beginers,bodybuilders and those with modest strength,and it is just oposite from what oldtimers concluded with trial and error method in thousands cases.

[Rick Walker]

Sorry if this is a bonehead question,

What's 5/3/1?

It is kinda wierd question as this is most popular training program that exist on earth.It is ultimate universal power program, best you can find and it is very simple and relatively new(2009).

Lets sum up:

1st week you do repout with weight you can lift 10+ times(only 1set)

2nd repout with 6+(1set)

3rd repout with 3+(1set)

4th week is deload week.

Training looks like this:

90 x5

120x5

150x5

180x5

and then final weight:

210 on repout

It is goal to do as meny reps you can in one set.

Thats it. Then you go in other exercise and do the same.There is split on upper and lower body parts,each you do twice a week.

Actually program is copy from Arthur Jones HIT method, only adjusted a bit with larger rest btw sets and exercises for strength.

In reality it can work for beginers,bodybuilders and those with modest strength,and it is just oposite from what oldtimers concluded with trial and error method in thousands cases.

Actually, that isnt the 5/3/1 program at all...

[The Hack]

Actually, that isnt the 5/3/1 program at all...

hmm,yea i mad mistake with split, and that way it makes her(for me) even worste as every exercise is done only once a week and only one set(those warm up sets i don't count)

,but let me see as that book is available at net.

Once you have your maxes for each lift (bench, squat, deadlift and standing military press), I want you to take 90% of this number and use this as your “max” for the first 4 weeks of the training cycle.

So we have squat 400lb and we must take 90% of that, what is 360lb and put it in this formula.

Week 1 65% x 5 reps, 75% x 5 reps, 85% x 5 or more reps

Week 2 70% x 3 reps, 80% x 3 reps, 90% x 3 or more reps

Week 3 75% x 5 reps, 85% x 3 reps, 95% x 1 or more reps

Week 4 40% x 5 reps, 50% x 5 reps, 60% x 5 reps

What you get are major weights which becomes 10+, 6+, and 3+ repetitions as they are very very light.

Your max1 is 400 but you take that it is 90% of that as most important is to have reserve

New max1 is 360,in formula:

In week 1 you do one repout with 270lbs x5+ times. There is no pearson on earth who while has 400squat can't do with 270 10+repetitions,even 15+.

In week 2, one repout with 306 3+ reps,

week 3 340 x1+ reps. Most people will be able to do it at first 5reps at least.

The Last Set

Whichever option you choose, you’ll notice that the last set of the day reads, “or more reps.” This is where the fun begins. The last set of the day is the all-out set. You’ll be going for as many reps as possible. I hesitate to tell anyone to do anything to failure, because that’s not what I’m after. I wouldn’t prescribe this. This last set should be a ball buster, though, and it’s the one you really need to focus on. This is when you dig in and try to move the world. Because you’re working off a weight that’s 10% less than your actual max, you should be able to get the prescribed reps for the day fairly easily. This is a foregone conclusion. On the last set, however, you’ll have to reach further and grind it out – not to failure so you’re dead and can’t train the rest of the week, but it should take some life out of you. I highly recommend having a goal in mind for these last sets.

Program is silly for me, but if you like, please.

[tselegala]

I'm glad the program works so well for many of you but i tried something similar in the past and it just did not yield the same results as westside. I guess it proves in a way that we are all quite different and respond best to different routines. We do change with time though, what worked so well in the past may eventually hold us back in the future, so i'm not saying i will never try this type of routine again but for now i prefer not to.

I'm going to risk putting forward a theory that may explain why westside works so much better for me. With westside, i max every week on something. I find that this teaches you how to put everything you got into one killer rep and totally focus on it. I think that if you don't train this regularly you kind of forget how to or at least don't become as good at it. Since my goal for now is increasing my rep max, i think i need to keep training this as often as possible.

[Rick Walker]

What you get are major weights which becomes 10+, 6+, and 3+ repetitions as they are very very light.

Your max1 is 400 but you take that it is 90% of that as most important is to have reserve

New max1 is 360,in formula:

In week 1 you do one repout with 270lbs x5+ times. There is no pearson on earth who while has 400squat can't do with 270 10+repetitions,even 15+.

In week 2, one repout with 306 3+ reps,

week 3 340 x1+ reps. Most people will be able to do it at first 5reps at least.

Program is silly for me, but if you like, please.

When looking at the 5/3/1 you have to think LONG TERM. As with most cycles, the first few weeks are easy. It is the constant going heavy that wrecks a lot of lifters, I should know. Been there done that.

5/3/1 looks at things with time in mind. Rome wasnt built in a day, a 700 raw squat and pull wont be either. It allows for a constant build up with a 4th week deload which keeps you progressing slow but steady.

With your example above, thats true. If the lifter starts at 360 he will have it easy for awhile. Hence the reason the last set is an all out set. And I beg to differ, there arent many 400 pound raw squatters that are doing 270 for 20!

But let's look beyond the first 4 weeks. After that you add anywhere from 5-20 pounds on the your "maxes" for another 4 week cycle. So, if you are starting with 360 (being a 400 pound squatter) you are now moving to as much as 380. That is week 1 @ 325 for 5+. Week 2 @ 340 for 3+. Week 3 @ 360 for 1+.

So in 8 weeks you are now setting rep records with those weights.

Another 4 weeks to take you to 12 which is a typical powerlifting cycle) and you are looking at 400, so 340 for 5+, 360 for 3+, and 380 for 1+. Say you get 380 for 3. Put that in the max formula (380 x 3 x .0333 + 380) you get 417.9, or a 17 pound gain on your squat single in 12 weeks!! For someone who is advanced, that is HUGE.

Sometimes you have to do less to achieve more. But the bottom line is it is a just another program. Do it or dont do it. But, dont bang on it unless you dedicate yourself to at least 12 solid weeks and give it all you got. That way you can make an honest assessment.

-Rick

[The Hack]

I saw now that you started this program, if i noticed it at first place i wouldn't bash program. I wish that you prove that i'm wrong.

Concept of program how much i see is to always,from cycle to cycle, to modify 100% at 90% and put it in formula. Every 5th week you should test max(i think) and recalculate again, if there are gains offcourse.

I noticed few things in it by now:

first that 5+ becomes 10+ and even 15+,

and more alerted that many don't make pr's after first 4weeks and quit. And as Alexis said,what also Broz said-oftenly lifting maximum weight teaches you to lift and fight max weight and that is something what this program is maybe lacking for competitive powerlifter.

Program is new, so there is no much data about it ,and your right i havn't been doing it, but i've been training on similar way-1set for repout, but more often then once a week.

Mostly i'm banging it because concept is stolen from great Arthur(which i admire a lot) and noone notice it, and even it is very simple many have been amazed by program like is finaly founded ultimate formula for strength.

I like how you said, "somethimes you must do less to achive more"

what might be true,

Pete Cisco made program based on that, He has theory that liver,kidneys and other inner organs need more time to recuperate and man should be training every 2-3weeks. But also data base is small because there are not many people who would like to train that often.

Edited April 18, 2010 by The Hack

[timstruse]

To refocus, my intent in starting thread was for people on the 5/3/1 program to share questions, observations, workout splits, auxiliary schemes, etc. It is not to discuss whether or not this is an effective program. If you want to talk about your own program, please start your own thread.

Also, I would prefer not to rip off the author by posting the details of the program. If you want to know about the program, buy the ebook. Wendler's chapter called "moving north of vag" alone is worth the $20.

[anson]

If Every man, woman, and child over 10 were to start 5/3/1 we're see obesity, diabetes, and depression reach all time lows. And PRs would go through the roof! I have some extra copies of last March's Men's Fitness, in the article titled "Never plateau again" by Jim Wendler, the basic 5/3/1 template is explained. If anyone wants a copy PM me and I'll send it to you- the only thing I ask in return is that after you've done the routine for a few months and see how great it is, buy Jim's 5/3/1 eBook. Let's help those who help us!

[Rick Walker]

To refocus, my intent in starting thread was for people on the 5/3/1 program to share questions, observations, workout splits, auxiliary schemes, etc. It is not to discuss whether or not this is an effective program. If you want to talk about your own program, please start your own thread.

Also, I would prefer not to rip off the author by posting the details of the program. If you want to know about the program, buy the ebook. Wendler's chapter called "moving north of vag" alone is worth the $20.

You are exactly right Tim, on all aspects. That chapter is by far the best one in the book!

My results week to week will speak for themselves...

[The Natural]

If Every man, woman, and child over 10 were to start 5/3/1 we're see obesity, diabetes, and depression reach all time lows.

I could think of about one hundred better ways to reach those goals, but I guess every program has its zealots.

[climber511]

THE best program is the one you enjoy enough that you will do it 3 times a week or whatever. There is no perfect program but there are programs that are better than others for reaching YOUR goals. 5-3-1 is a good program but it really isn't a competition program for any particular thing.

[anson]

THE best program is the one you enjoy enough that you will do it 3 times a week or whatever. There is no perfect program but there are programs that are better than others for reaching YOUR goals. 5-3-1 is a good program but it really isn't a competition program for any particular thing.

I've been having some fun with hyperbole in this thread, I agree that the best program is the one you'll actually do and stick with long term. I think 5/3/1 has an edge over most training programs when it comes to the average person- the cyclical nature/periods of reduced intensity/lower volume all make it possible to stay on it for years or even decades at a time. Other programs I've done in the past left me feeling beaten up and burned out. I think Jim meant for 5/3/1 to be a kind of lifestyle of gaining strength over years of work.

[The Natural]

I think 5/3/1 has an edge over most training programs when it comes to the average person- the cyclical nature/periods of reduced intensity/lower volume all make it possible to stay on it for years or even decades at a time.

For the average person, yes, it is probably very good, but any training system that does not destroy your body within a decade is unsuitable for those who want medals.

[mbcx6pmw]

I recently went through 4 cycles of the program. I trained on a MWF split, so each cycle took 5 weeks. I felt I benefitted from extra recovery time. Occasionally circumstances dictated I train on consecutive days. I think the impact of this depends on the lift, and obviously what assistance you're doing. I found unsurprisingly my overhead pressing was down the day after deadlifts and shrugs.

I did grippers on lower body days, pinch on upper body days and running on one of the off days.

I would say I made reasonable if unspectacular gains, kind of what the program is geared towards. As the weights got heavier towards the end, the volume did feel very low. I think if I had been continuing the program I would have taken the weights back down, although I hadn't stalled in the sense of not being able to complete the minimum required reps. I will definitely revisit it at some point later in the year.

[timstruse]

I recently went through 4 cycles of the program. I trained on a MWF split, so each cycle took 5 weeks. I felt I benefitted from extra recovery time. Occasionally circumstances dictated I train on consecutive days. I think the impact of this depends on the lift, and obviously what assistance you're doing. I found unsurprisingly my overhead pressing was down the day after deadlifts and shrugs.

I did grippers on lower body days, pinch on upper body days and running on one of the off days.

I would say I made reasonable if unspectacular gains, kind of what the program is geared towards. As the weights got heavier towards the end, the volume did feel very low. I think if I had been continuing the program I would have taken the weights back down, although I hadn't stalled in the sense of not being able to complete the minimum required reps. I will definitely revisit it at some point later in the year.

I had the same experience exactly 4 cycles into it - I had advanced my 1RM too quickly and my progress slowed. I dropped the weights slightly for the next cycle and immediately started making good progress again. Looking back, I seem to make the most progress hitting about 9-10 reps on the 5+ set, 7-8 reps on the 3+ set and 4-5 reps on the 1+ set. (Obviously everyone is different - this was just my personal experience.)

[Rick Walker]

I think that is a common mistake. That is why Jim states to raise it only 5 pounds or so per cycle, that way it is a slow enough ramp up. I started with very low numbers, and plan on jumping 20 for the dead, 15 for the squat, and 15 for the bench a cycle. That will put me at 500 in the squat, 640 in the deadlift, and 280 in the bench as my "training max" numbers for my last cycle going into the meet. These are very doable numbers for the 10-8-6 range that I am also shooting for.

I think if you at least get the 5/3/1 in the 3 weeks, and you up it 5 pounds a cycle, you will continue to make gains. Once my gains slow a bit, I will only be jumping 5 pounds every 4 weeks. I can't imagine a 5 pound jump every month ever being too much.

-Rick