Hand Size

[rico300zx]

Tommy is one bad dude!

[The Natural]

I would like to state that the following is not directed at any one person. It is a generalized argument spawned by listening to the hand size argument forever now.

In all honesty, I think if you have small hands then sorry about your luck. I would have been a great sprinter had I been born with Carl Lewis' genetics. I'm only being half facetious here. They don't lower the hoop for short guys in basketball. They don't move 1st base closer for righthanded batters in baseball. They don't let tall guys pull from a rack in powerlifting. Guys with emphysema don't get to run 1/4 marathons so they can compete fairly with the other runners. They don't lower the hurdles for a guy with short legs in track. You can either work to get stronger and overcome it, or find another sport to compete in. Grip favors guys with big hands just as basketball favors guys that are tall. Short guys can and do excel at B-ball but not because they made it easier for them.

At some point equality came to mean equal outcomes instead of equal opportunity. There are a million different adjustments we could make so that everyone could pinch exactly the same amount or pull exactly the same on an axle. We have become a country of complainers. It's not fair because my hands are smaller than Jedd's or Rico's. Bull. Work harder than them or compete in another sport. Or just do it for the fun of it. Tall guys could complain (and they do) just as much about having to pull a foot more than short guys in a PL meet, so should we let guys like me pick from 20" when competing against Bob, who's like 5'7 or 5'8" as I recall? No. I wouldn't want that.

Sorry for my rant, but honestly, this is like a guy that's born color blind complaining that it is descrimination that he didn't get the job as color tester at DuPont. You have what God gave you. Do the most with it.

I know a lot of this stuff is just for fun conversation, but this argument has been going on for 10 years now. An axle is still going to be an axle, a fatman a fatman, and an Inch an Inch. If you have small hands, you are going to have a hard time on all of them compared to somebody with big mitts. Life isn't fair.

Andrew and Josh don't have huge hands, but they still do incredibly well at grip contests. At CGC last year, Tommy Heslep who has fairly small hands came with in a point of knocking off Parris who has some of the biggest hands I have ever seen. Hand size is one factor, but certainly not the only one.

As eloquent as your argument is, Mike, grip has and always will be primarily a community of "dads", for lack of a better word. They're mostly hobbyists. Their perception of grip is fundamentally different than their perception of other sports. Imagine a family get together where everyone plays a game of horseshoes. The partially blind uncle asks that he be allowed to get a little closer than everyone else. The kids ask to use a lighter horseshoe. The arthritic granddad asks that he be given three attempts instead of one. If you launched into a rant like the one you just gave, you would be exactly right in a sense, but to them, the event is much more "communal" than other sports. They want to make everyone feel included; they want everyone to have a shot at doing well. As much as Jedd and others are trying to make it more like other sports, you still have the Dads wanting to chime in and shape things before the rules get set in stone and they're consigned to the place in the grip hierarchy that they are rightfully owed based on their mediocre genetics. The only people who are going to get your argument are the "non-Dads" because they understand that sport has never been about equality over anthropometric variables. Just consider that. Everything you wrote was correct, but you're talking to the horseshoe crowd, not the Olympic 100M crowd.

[jad]

It's Friday, I'm done with my client a little early, and I have some time to kill before lunch so I'll bite.

-In PL not everybody squats from the same upright/monolift height.

-In PL, the big three favor different body types not one. Bob has short arms and has the advantage over Dave T in bench but not so much in DL. In grip, if we hardly ever include hub ("an oddball lift"), an advantage for small hands...hmmmm...

-In baseball, not everybody has to wear the same size glove or use the same weight bat.

-An axle, an Inch, and a fatman will always be just that but they'll never be valid ways to measure grip strength in a contest setting. If you want to be good them, then yes, work harder. If you think you're going to be great at them with sub-8 hands, I wish you and your pet unicorn all the luck in the world.

So in summary, adjustments are indeed made in other sports, but as usual, the "work-harder" crowd conveniently ignores them.

It's been a hoot as always Gentleman but I have some lunch to hunt down.

[Cannon]

I didn't think we were talking about actually letting anyone do something different. "Use a lighter horseshoe" for example.

I thought we were talking about dividing people up into two groups--large hand/small hand or lightweight/heavyweight--so they can all do the exact same thing, just against each other.

[Mike Rinderle]

I didn't think we were talking about actually letting anyone do something different. "Use a lighter horseshoe" for example.

I thought we were talking about dividing people up into two groups--large hand/small hand or lightweight/heavyweight--so they can all do the exact same thing, just against each other.

Is there a sub 6'4" basketball division?

A short leg hurdles division?

A club foot sprinter's division? (no special olympic jokes please)

Hand size is only one factor that makes up a successful grip athlete. We could literally divide this down into a thousand different sub groups based on genetic makeup of the body so that everyone wins. There really aren't that many people that do this sport. 2 weight divisions or the novice/open/elite split seems simple enough, but if we start getting into thumb angle relative to pinky, or hitchiker thumb vs. straight (both important in grip), or hand size then it's just trying to make guys feel better about themselves, which is cool, but not so good if you want the sport to be taken seriously.

Heck, let's have age divisions (I would like this), hand size divisions, weight divisions, and height divisons for a sport where 6 - 15 participants is the norm for contest attendance. Everyone gets a podium spot!!!

Unfortunately, thickbar events were the big grip feat events of history and those are probably never going away. I agree with Josh that it is not as easy to lift the inch with sub 8" hands as it is with 8.5" hands. That can't be argued. But it's not as easy to play basketball at 5'10" as it is if you are 6'5" but they don't have two leagues. Most promoters stay away from things that penalize small handed guys until the medley. But at some point when the Elite guys get involved, you need to bring in a fatman or inch type lift to get some separation.

Anyway, just my two cents. I can see both sides. I just don't think having smaller hands is enough of a handicap to have your own division in a sport where 100 people or less around the entire country actually compete regularly (2-3 contests a year).

[daniel reinard]

I thought we were talking about dividing people up into two groups--large hand/small hand or lightweight/heavyweight--so they can all do the exact same thing, just against each other.

+1

[daniel reinard]

-An axle, an Inch, and a fatman will always be just that but they'll never be valid ways to measure grip strength in a contest setting. If you want to be good them, then yes, work harder. If you think you're going to be great at them with sub-8 hands, I wish you and your pet unicorn all the luck in the world.

This is why I posted a pic of my sub 8" hand wrapped around a RT, but I guess I shouldn't ever expect a big lift like a 400# axle or something. I don't need a unicorn. Just put a fatman or Inch in front of me and we'll see who's the surprised one. I hate hypothetical negativity and think your statement puts down a lot of people shooting for those big goals despite non-optimal hands.

[jad]

-An axle, an Inch, and a fatman will always be just that but they'll never be valid ways to measure grip strength in a contest setting. If you want to be good them, then yes, work harder. If you think you're going to be great at them with sub-8 hands, I wish you and your pet unicorn all the luck in the world.

This is why I posted a pic of my sub 8" hand wrapped around a RT, but I guess I shouldn't ever expect a big lift like a 400# axle or something. I don't need a unicorn. Just put a fatman or Inch in front of me and we'll see who's the surprised one. I hate hypothetical negativity and think your statement puts down a lot of people shooting for those big goals despite non-optimal hands.

Merely pulling a fatman or an Inch doesn't make you "great" at them. You would need to be able to clean the fatman on command like Jedd or farmer walk the Inches like The Chad. The axle is a moving target but you'd need to be someone that is always an outside threat for taking the record. Until you're capable of these things, you're still very much dependent upon your unicorn. You do have quite a magical wrap for a sub-8" hand though. We'll see if that holds up as you build your pinch/your hand gets thicker.

[Ross Love]

Daniel you have as much wrap on the RT as I do.

[daniel reinard]

Merely pulling a fatman or an Inch doesn't make you "great" at them. You would need to be able to clean the fatman on command like Jedd or farmer walk the Inches like The Chad. The axle is a moving target but you'd need to be someone that is always an outside threat for taking the record. Until you're capable of these things, you're still very much dependent upon your unicorn. You do have quite a magical wrap for a sub-8" hand though. We'll see if that holds up as you build your pinch/your hand gets thicker.

Again, unnecessary. So one has to threathen a record to be great? I don't think a fatman clean or FW with the Inch are that crazy. Bad*** yes, not crazy. And I could care less if my hand wrap "holds up". My pinch, blob and axle lifts are decent at the moment, and if it gets stronger then who needs wrap.

Muggsy Bogues was drafted 12th overall and put up 14 years of pro ball. You want to call him to see how his unicorn is doing?

[OldGuy]

It's wrap that give an advantage rather than handlength. Handlength is a poor way to state hand size. Hand size should perhaps be decided on how far the person's fingers encircle an RT handle.

[daniel reinard]

Daniel you have as much wrap on the RT as I do.

I just wish it did me some good. You'd smoke me on it any day. Axles for some reason are my friend, not RT though. So I made an axle with 1.9" and 2.4" grips and set the RT down. Triples as an Inch trainer.

Oldguy, I agree. It tells more since wrap is how the hand is used, not just spread on a ruler. I still think hands can't be classified. But it's fun to discover how they vary and perform via study.

[rico300zx]

-An axle, an Inch, and a fatman will always be just that but they'll never be valid ways to measure grip strength in a contest setting. If you want to be good them, then yes, work harder. If you think you're going to be great at them with sub-8 hands, I wish you and your pet unicorn all the luck in the world.

This is why I posted a pic of my sub 8" hand wrapped around a RT, but I guess I shouldn't ever expect a big lift like a 400# axle or something. I don't need a unicorn. Just put a fatman or Inch in front of me and we'll see who's the surprised one. I hate hypothetical negativity and think your statement puts down a lot of people shooting for those big goals despite non-optimal hands.

Merely pulling a fatman or an Inch doesn't make you "great" at them. You would need to be able to clean the fatman on command like Jedd or farmer walk the Inches like The Chad. The axle is a moving target but you'd need to be someone that is always an outside threat for taking the record. Until you're capable of these things, you're still very much dependent upon your unicorn. You do have quite a magical wrap for a sub-8" hand though. We'll see if that holds up as you build your pinch/your hand gets thicker.

Jad, Daniel can clean the blob iveseen the his vid on utube

[Mike Rinderle]

Daniel has only been training grip for awhile, but his wide pinch and hubbing are already up there. He's cleaned a regular blob and hubbed a 45 plus some ridiculous amount of weight. I'm not sure if he will ever clean a fatman, but he's definitely on the short list of guys who have a chance at it someday. You are one as well Parris. That 2 finger blob clean you did was pure sickness. I think you could clean a fatman right now if you got your hands on one.

[The Natural]

I didn't think we were talking about actually letting anyone do something different. "Use a lighter horseshoe" for example.

I thought we were talking about dividing people up into two groups--large hand/small hand or lightweight/heavyweight--so they can all do the exact same thing, just against each other.

That was the impetus behind Fairbar, Cannon. Different implements for different people. "Use a smaller bar".

It's either that, or a complaint about being unable to lift items that have been a part of grip since the beginning (blobs, Inch, etc.)

Or it's a complaint about some event putting too much stress on the lower backs of competitors.

The specifics change from one month to the next, but it's in essence just a group of disabled people lobbying for special treatment.

Like I was telling Mike, it's a matter of demographics. If these same people all had an interest in sprinting instead of grip, their sprint contests would look nothing like the ones the pros use. There would be weight divisions, and a big debate would take place on the Sprintboard about just where the line should be drawn. Some would argue that weight is not a good criterion, and stride length should be used instead. If your stride is over 50", you compete in a different division. It's just the mentality of this culture.

[jad]

Merely pulling a fatman or an Inch doesn't make you "great" at them. You would need to be able to clean the fatman on command like Jedd or farmer walk the Inches like The Chad. The axle is a moving target but you'd need to be someone that is always an outside threat for taking the record. Until you're capable of these things, you're still very much dependent upon your unicorn. You do have quite a magical wrap for a sub-8" hand though. We'll see if that holds up as you build your pinch/your hand gets thicker.

Again, unnecessary. So one has to threathen a record to be great? I don't think a fatman clean or FW with the Inch are that crazy. Bad*** yes, not crazy. And I could care less if my hand wrap "holds up". My pinch, blob and axle lifts are decent at the moment, and if it gets stronger then who needs wrap.

Muggsy Bogues was drafted 12th overall and put up 14 years of pro ball. You want to call him to see how his unicorn is doing?

Sounds like you have it all figured out then. I look forward to you pushing Andrew and Rich on the axle and maybe coming out to a grip contest and farmer walking some inches or cleaning the fatman, on command, after the full contest.

[daniel reinard]

Sounds like you have it all figured out then. I look forward to you pushing Andrew and Rich on the axle and maybe coming out to a grip contest and farmer walking some inches or cleaning the fatman, on command, after the full contest.

Way to twist things in a ridiculous manner while avoiding the points of all the previous posts. We should put you in charge of defining greatness so we can watch it change everytime you have a brain fart on the internet. Better yet let's put you in charge of approving grip athletes for Elite class since you think a great grip guy should do 500# axle and play with a fatman like a toy. I guess Elite would be 600# and be able to juggle blobs? Take your negativity somewhere else.

If Jad could stay out of the thread we can talk about the topic. I'd bet Parris could clean a fatman. The blob feats he's done on a whim and all the pinch training he has put in leaves little doubt on his ability to embarrass a fatman. His big ol hands might have a 'hand' but one things for sure he's put lots of time in. I only wish more blobs of all sorts existed or at least were in circulation instead of being collectors pieces. Sometimes greatness is embellished by rarity.

[odin]

I didn't think we were talking about actually letting anyone do something different. "Use a lighter horseshoe" for example.

I thought we were talking about dividing people up into two groups--large hand/small hand or lightweight/heavyweight--so they can all do the exact same thing, just against each other.

That was the impetus behind Fairbar, Cannon. Different implements for different people. "Use a smaller bar".

It's either that, or a complaint about being unable to lift items that have been a part of grip since the beginning (blobs, Inch, etc.)

Or it's a complaint about some event putting too much stress on the lower backs of competitors.

The specifics change from one month to the next, but it's in essence just a group of disabled people lobbying for special treatment.

Like I was telling Mike, it's a matter of demographics. If these same people all had an interest in sprinting instead of grip, their sprint contests would look nothing like the ones the pros use. There would be weight divisions, and a big debate would take place on the Sprintboard about just where the line should be drawn. Some would argue that weight is not a good criterion, and stride length should be used instead. If your stride is over 50", you compete in a different division. It's just the mentality of this culture.

<sarcasm>I guess grip should cater to embryonic and/or frustrated/failed strongmen/powerlifters instead. We can recruit them to grip by including lifts they enjoy. Let's have strength from the elbows down be secondary to overall body size. </sarcasm>

If thickbar was typically competed by hanging from a thickbar instead of lifting it from the ground, overall results would be a bit different and lots of the bigger guys would want weight divisions or have the “little guys” add weight around their waists.

This is an emerging sport whose standards have yet to be fully defined and it needs to develop its own identity, events and classes without worrying about those who want to gain a competitive edge by including other elements of strength rather than having their strength from the elbows down measured as accurately as possible in a competition. To clarify, I don't mind the other elements being included if their is some type of weight division and will write a post or posts about why I prefer weight classes (which are in all or nearly all weight-lifting/strength-related sports) over hand-size divisions.

[Mikael Siversson]

Having weight divisions in a strength sport is actually the norm, not the exception. I personally think hand size divisions are silly as they are comparable to the idea of having different divisions in the deadlift and bench press based on arm lengths etc.

I will compete in the 82.5k class and I welcome any of you heavyweights to slim down. The vast majority of you would be defeated by guys like me, Tommy and Pete and you can take that to the bank.

If these same people all had an interest in sprinting instead of grip, their sprint contests would look nothing like the ones the pros use. There would be weight divisions, and a big debate would take place on the Sprintboard about just where the line should be drawn. Some would argue that weight is not a good criterion, and stride length should be used instead. If your stride is over 50", you compete in a different division. It's just the mentality of this culture.

[Bill Piche]

Having weight divisions in a strength sport is actually the norm, not the exception. I personally think hand size divisions are silly as they are comparable to the idea of having different divisions in the deadlift and bench press based on arm lengths etc.

I agree 100%.

[macaz]

It's wrap that give an advantage rather than handlength. Handlength is a poor way to state hand size. Hand size should perhaps be decided on how far the person's fingers encircle an RT handle.

Good point. I have 8" hands but cant completely wrap around a 2&3/8 pipe. I leave a 1/4" gap. My hands are a bit thick.

Daniel, I have seen your videos and you are really strong especially for how long you have been into grip. Have you been rock climbing a while or something?

[Ross Love]

Merely pulling a fatman or an Inch doesn't make you "great" at them. You would need to be able to clean the fatman on command like Jedd or farmer walk the Inches like The Chad. The axle is a moving target but you'd need to be someone that is always an outside threat for taking the record. Until you're capable of these things, you're still very much dependent upon your unicorn. You do have quite a magical wrap for a sub-8" hand though. We'll see if that holds up as you build your pinch/your hand gets thicker.

Again, unnecessary. So one has to threathen a record to be great? I don't think a fatman clean or FW with the Inch are that crazy. Bad*** yes, not crazy. And I could care less if my hand wrap "holds up". My pinch, blob and axle lifts are decent at the moment, and if it gets stronger then who needs wrap.

Muggsy Bogues was drafted 12th overall and put up 14 years of pro ball. You want to call him to see how his unicorn is doing?

Sounds like you have it all figured out then. I look forward to you pushing Andrew and Rich on the axle and maybe coming out to a grip contest and farmer walking some inches or cleaning the fatman, on command, after the full contest.

Actually.... Ross Andrew and rich is what you meant to say.

[jad]

My fault Ross, my negativity must have clouded my judgement.

[Florian Kellersmann]

It's wrap that give an advantage rather than handlength. Handlength is a poor way to state hand size. Hand size should perhaps be decided on how far the person's fingers encircle an RT handle.

That would be fair.

[Cannon]

Having weight divisions in a strength sport is actually the norm, not the exception. I personally think hand size divisions are silly as they are comparable to the idea of having different divisions in the deadlift and bench press based on arm lengths etc.

I agree 100%.

I agree with this too. I really like the idea of the 82.5kg class. I am very excited to see that in the WSH and hope it proves to be a good idea.