climber511 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 On certain one hand lifts - there seems to be a higher than normal chance of biceps problems. Everyone may not feel that, I don't know, but that's the issue I have always heard about in regards to the V - Bar lift done to a full stand. The rotation can cause biceps problems (the primary function of the biceps is to rotate the forearm if I remember my science). I would think the regular handle on the PB wouldn't turn on you and possibly be safer ??? I can see the handles to the privates thing perhaps though depending on arm length and how you set your hand as you lift etc maybe. Anyway do it and see what you think - I'm good either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 I always thought the primary function of the biceps is elbow flexion... but that is not important to this discussion. Honestly I have thought about this all day and I am considering a change to the height to lockout, as Brent's point about people asking something like, "Why don't they lift it all the way up" has really struck me. With the sack hazard, the person would just simply have to pull in a pronated grip, I suppose... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biceps_brachii_muscle Just the first thing that popped up with Google. I "remember" some professor telling me that somewhere along the way and then reading it later - which I think is why the V-bar rotates - the biceps is sort of seeking its most favorable position. But that would have been in the 60s or early 70s - then again you guys know how my memory is - here today, gone today! Not important to this conversation anyway. Some trivia perhaps. I tried it today and "lockout" seemed fine to me. The jewels were safe Edited June 10, 2011 by climber511 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted June 10, 2011 Author Share Posted June 10, 2011 But what did the lockout look like? Were you half hunched over and twisted? How much weight did you use? That is why I wish somebody would have taken video at Andrew's. I'd really like to see what lockout looks like with a top level effort. I just want to know how tough it is going to be to judge. That is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timstruse Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/user/AdamTGlass2007#p/u/50/YHEQ7JcpP2U http://www.youtube.com/user/Adurniat#p/u/3/Fm-Fn2IsRBo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted June 10, 2011 Author Share Posted June 10, 2011 Tim, Do you consider that lockout? Jedd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timstruse Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) Tim, Do you consider that lockout? Jedd Definitely not from a powerlifting perspective, but if you ask those lifters whether their lifts were valid (however we are defining that for plateau buster purposes), they would probably say yes, and I don't disagree. I have only 3 training sessions with a plateau buster under my belt, and before the rules for the event were posted I assumed the lift would be to lockout so I've been training that way (and without any skin tear problems); so far, my version of a lockout is very similar to those in the videos. It's definitely not a pure lockout for powerlifting purposes, but it does feel that in order to raise the implement any higher I'd need to start moving into triple extension. It's a difficult lift to judge but I think there will be less uncertainty and debate if it is judged based on distance from the ground rather than some definition of a lockout position. In my opinion, consistent judging and equal treatment are more important than a spectator's opinion of whether the lift looks cool. Also, if it's judged based on lockout, inevitably there will be short guys who take a super-wide sumo stance and can lock it out at 1" off the floor, and that doesn't seem fair when my ROM is more like 6-8". (I know this same ROM debate surrounds conventional and sumo deadlifting, and yet they still judge based on lockout position, so I may very well lose this argument.) If it must be judged based on lockout, then I'd suggest the judge should determine that the weight is off the floor and under control, then give a down command. In other words, it would not be necessary for the torso to be fully upright and straight with the shoulder pulled back, as long as the weight is determined to be under control and then lowered under control after the command. I have no position about how this event should be judged for nationals - I completely defer to you as the promoter and my opinions in this post are not intended to fuel any debates. Edited June 10, 2011 by Tim Struse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted June 10, 2011 Author Share Posted June 10, 2011 Perfect answer and explanation. I was wondering because it is going to be very tough to get a true lockout with this apparatus, espcially when you consider it can be tough to lockout the rolling thunder and the weights will be like twice RT weights. Thanks for the explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 After watching those videos and then watching myself in the mirror - I'm going to say 2" is going to be easier to judge. And I don't like holding at the top waiting on a down signal in that position - not that it matters after watching Adam lift over 500# - I'm going to be so far behind, this event is going to kill my score hehe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 I agree with Chris. Trying to judge lockout on that thing is going to be rough and it really isn't going to help our image problem because you're still going to have people wondering why they didn't lock it out (compared to a PL). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andurniat Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Here are lifts that Malcolm and I did weeks ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Both Andrew and Malcom are tall - as is Adam - and all seem to hit their legs with the plates at the top and lift 5 or 6" even at their height. I think 2" might be good. And for god's sake - can everyone but me lift 500+ on this thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbe705 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 I absolutely fail to see how anyone can see those lifts and say that they're no better than the device barely breaking the ground in terms of public perception. I have shown side by side video to over a dozen people and they all want to know why the the one where they don't lift it counts. this has been split about 50/50 athletes(mostly powerlifters) and non athletes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Maybe it's a wording thing with me. When I hear "lockout" I think hips through, hold for a down signal - judge says down - then lower. If what we are really saying is "stand up" then I agree completely. Bob Lipinski and Andrew are going to move the weight very different distances but both will "stand up" with the weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timstruse Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 I absolutely fail to see how anyone can see those lifts and say that they're no better than the device barely breaking the ground in terms of public perception. I have shown side by side video to over a dozen people and they all want to know why the the one where they don't lift it counts. this has been split about 50/50 athletes(mostly powerlifters) and non athletes. Nobody has argued that the lockouts in the videos don't look better than a 2" hop from a spectator's perspective. No one is arguing that position. We agree. The problem is defining and judging a lockout. Personally, I think crowd appeal is less important than clear rules and consistent judging. In the video below, compare Adam's 463 (attempt 1) versus the 563 (attempt 4). Watch his hips, which clearly lock out on 463 but not so much on 563. Was the 563 a valid lockout? It was considered a valid lift at Adam's comp. So then, how is lockout defined? http://www.youtube.com/user/AdamTGlass2007#p/u/50/YHEQ7JcpP2U (I'm not criticizing the 563 - I think getting any airtime with 500+ is exceptional and considerably more than what I can do.) The last thing I want to be is another ninny bickering on Gripboard, so this ends my contribution to the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbe705 Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I absolutely fail to see how anyone can see those lifts and say that they're no better than the device barely breaking the ground in terms of public perception. I have shown side by side video to over a dozen people and they all want to know why the the one where they don't lift it counts. this has been split about 50/50 athletes(mostly powerlifters) and non athletes. Nobody has argued that the lockouts in the videos don't look better than a 2" hop from a spectator's perspective. No one is arguing that position. We agree. The problem is defining and judging a lockout. Personally, I think crowd appeal is less important than clear rules and consistent judging. In the video below, compare Adam's 463 (attempt 1) versus the 563 (attempt 4). Watch his hips, which clearly lock out on 463 but not so much on 563. Was the 563 a valid lockout? It was considered a valid lift at Adam's comp. So then, how is lockout defined? http://www.youtube.com/user/AdamTGlass2007#p/u/50/YHEQ7JcpP2U (I'm not criticizing the 563 - I think getting any airtime with 500+ is exceptional and considerably more than what I can do.) The last thing I want to be is another ninny bickering on Gripboard, so this ends my contribution to the topic. my feelings are this. there has been an effort made to grow grip, legitimize the process, and establish a national champion. I feel that the use of the 2" lifts sells us short and is bad pr. and, if the sport is to grow those will be the kinds of details that make or break it. I don't feel it has as much to do with crowd appeal as it does with turning off people who may become involved. that is my thinking behind the full lift. as far as judging goes. no matter what the standard judging will be subjective and people will be unhappy. I don't think that we need to follow the powerlifting lockout as an example since this is about hand strength not hip or back strength. I think there can be an acceptable lockout for these events that doesn't involve the PL standard. as jedd said, I should have brought this up before the rules were posted. if it said lockout to begin with we wouldn't even be having this discussion. this has already been resolved with axle deads which are often less than PL ideal. I believe the phrase "standing erect" has been used. essentially I am interested in having the lifts be held to as high a standard as possible. I mean that for both posterity sake as well as public perception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbe705 Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 oh yeah, I agree with tim, I am done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 Guys, you are discussing this very well and I really appreciate it. The more I think about this, the more I am siding with a complete rep being near lockout. We could really use some input from Adam and also Bob Lipinski would be great. Adam's lifts were called good while he was still lifting. I see a Powerlifting belt in the back ground, maybe they were using that as the judging guideline. Bob, you happen to be one of the shorter guys that is qualified for Nationals. I am wondering what your thoughts are here and if you have tried the Plat Buster using a lift to lockout. Guys, thanks for weighing in. I really appreciate the active role you are taking in making sure we get this right. This is OUR sport, not MINE. Jedd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I absolutely fail to see how anyone can see those lifts and say that they're no better than the device barely breaking the ground in terms of public perception. I have shown side by side video to over a dozen people and they all want to know why the the one where they don't lift it counts. this has been split about 50/50 athletes(mostly powerlifters) and non athletes. Did you tell them (mostly powerlifters) that the lockouts were supposed to be lockouts? A larger ROM definitely looks better but if we're saying lockout and this is what we produce, I fail to see how this looks any better for grip? I think it reinforces the image of "gripnerd" or someone who does grip because they can't squat, bench, DL, etc.. by showing we don't know what a lockout is. Stand erect is a much better description but I don't know if that's any less weird than 2". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I'm out. Had a recurrence of my nerve trouble. Shoulders don't work right, grip barely does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Damn, didn't read the thread. Thanks for asking my opinion. For "traditional" lifts, I prefer already established standards. Normal OHDL, axle, RT, etc. This is simply for the sake of tradition and preserving the history of our sport. For newer and non-standard type events, I prefer a height gauge like the Euro pinch. In my opinion, it is fairer to all types of builds and cuts down on judging ambiguity. I always focus on ease and clarity of judging in my comp. With the Crusher for reps event in my next contest, I will use a height gauge. Around a 6" to 12" ROM sounds right, but I have the benefit of measuring myself, Don Larkin, and Dave Thorton to make sure what seem most fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Pulling to lockout will always favor those people that are built for pulling and on an implement with a high pick, those that use a style like sumo to shorten the travel. It does not test the grip equally among the competitors because some have to hold onto the implement for an 8" - 12" lift while others only have to hold it for a couple inches. Since the goal is to compare support grip strength among the competitors, I feel that it should be judged using a set height off the ground. This ensures that you are comparing competitor A's and competitor B's ability to lift the implement X distance off the ground and should take the same grip strength for the same amount of weight. I have no opinion on what the height should be as long as it can be reached by someone of short stature without difficulty. I understand the issue with 2". In many cases a successful lift can look like you just hopped the weight. Since this is a relatively new lift, a higher standard could be set from the beginning. 4" seems about right, but again, it doesn't matter to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 Mike, I hear you on the sumo. Two directions to go from there - (1) we could say no sumo (2) everyone could train it sumo and get good at it that way. It's not an easy decision, that's for sure. Jedd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamTGlass Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 first rule set for PB is good to go. Some of you guys have not pulled on it loaded up so you may not be familiar with the size of the handle. Here is my pulls from the May contest, see how the plates will get int he way of the legs? I am 6'2" some of you guys under 5'10" may only be able to get a 2-3" lift before it interferes with leg positioning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 first rule set for PB is good to go. Some of you guys have not pulled on it loaded up so you may not be familiar with the size of the handle. Here is my pulls from the May contest, see how the plates will get int he way of the legs? I am 6'2" some of you guys under 5'10" may only be able to get a 2-3" lift before it interferes with leg positioning Adam - I'm just using a loading pin and a handle (chain adjustable for height)to train - can you give me the handle height from the floor to the bottom of the handle? Handle is 1" I assume just from looking? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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