What's Raw?

[oscar4883]

Elbow sleeves

Wrist wraps

Knee Sleeves

Belt

are ok IMO, the lift would still be RAW. Knee wraps though are NOT RAW. I get 20kg-30kg out of the shorter INZER knee wraps on my squat. I squatted 190kg without wraps then did 220kg with the wraps.

Thats USAPL raw and I agree with everything you said.

I was pretty much on board with the USAPL definition until I started shopping for new knee sleeves. Pro Wrist Straps has some knee sleeves made from the same material as some of their tougher wraps. Convicts and such. Seems like these could give a good boost over the old neoprene ones.

[raymo]

Only a belt no wrist raps. Come on now this is the grip board we can't have wrist raps allowed.

[mikebuck]

The term raw should be deleted from the lingo of the iron game. In order to reduce confusion every claim of a lift should include the equipment used, for example, belt, wraps, chalk or whatever. Along with this should come accurate body weight and bar weight as well as ambient temperature and time of day. I think we are in an age where every detail needs to be included in a disclaimer or there should be no claim as to what lift was made. Even the gear lifts need detailed disclaimers, (single, double or triple ply; canvas, denim or poly; APF, USAPL, WADBl, SLP)

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone with my comments. Powerlifting in its most basic form is one of the best sports ever. However it is currently one of the most fractured and mutated endeavers one could participate in. I have a love/hate relationship with powerlifting. I have competed both with gear and without over the years. I would like to see powerlifting go back to belt only, good deep squats, good pauses on the bench and no hitcihng on the deadlift and most importantly one federation.

Sorry for the tangent but that is my $.50.

[raymo]

I tend to agree about this my biggest problem is with the open back shirts and the canvas squat suits I think anything over single ply has really polluted the sport. I guess it is really a preference thing whether you want to compete raw or single ply or double or triple it just depends on the individual. I know some people have the mentality to lift more and more weight with gear. I think this is one of the reasons PL has become so polluted. Also the judging is not consistent from federation to federation.

[Chris Mathison]

Elbow sleeves

Wrist wraps

Knee Sleeves

Belt

are ok IMO, the lift would still be RAW. Knee wraps though are NOT RAW. I get 20kg-30kg out of the shorter INZER knee wraps on my squat. I squatted 190kg without wraps then did 220kg with the wraps.

Thats USAPL raw and I agree with everything you said.

I was pretty much on board with the USAPL definition until I started shopping for new knee sleeves. Pro Wrist Straps has some knee sleeves made from the same material as some of their tougher wraps. Convicts and such. Seems like these could give a good boost over the old neoprene ones.

You probably wouldnt pass equipment check with them. It can only be neoprene and provide no support. They will physically pick them up and check them unless it says Rehband on them because they know what that is.

[CoC#3]

You probably wouldnt pass equipment check with them. It can only be neoprene and provide no support. They will physically pick them up and check them unless it says Rehband on them because they know what that is.

APT's knee sleeves and elbow sleeves for example (i use APT elbow sleeves for bench and heavy shoulder presses) provide more support than the rehband stuff. Still not 'gear' as such IMO but if tight enough they can actually give you some extra kilos on your lifts. Nothing like wraps but it is still noticeable.

[Wes]

Agree.

[oscar4883]

Elbow sleeves

Wrist wraps

Knee Sleeves

Belt

are ok IMO, the lift would still be RAW. Knee wraps though are NOT RAW. I get 20kg-30kg out of the shorter INZER knee wraps on my squat. I squatted 190kg without wraps then did 220kg with the wraps.

Thats USAPL raw and I agree with everything you said.

I was pretty much on board with the USAPL definition until I started shopping for new knee sleeves. Pro Wrist Straps has some knee sleeves made from the same material as some of their tougher wraps. Convicts and such. Seems like these could give a good boost over the old neoprene ones.

You probably wouldnt pass equipment check with them. It can only be neoprene and provide no support. They will physically pick them up and check them unless it says Rehband on them because they know what that is.

I never thought about the equipment check. I didn't use them in my last meet so it was not a concern for me. About a year ago I started lifting again after a layoff of several years and was shocked at the price of equipment. I think that in addition to bringing some sanity back to PL the raw events let those of us on a budget compete. It is nice to be able to compete without spending 600-700 dollars on equipment and alterations. The entry fees are steep enough!

[TKtheGreek]

The term raw should be deleted from the lingo of the iron game. In order to reduce confusion every claim of a lift should include the equipment used, for example, belt, wraps, chalk or whatever. Along with this should come accurate body weight and bar weight as well as ambient temperature and time of day. I think we are in an age where every detail needs to be included in a disclaimer or there should be no claim as to what lift was made. Even the gear lifts need detailed disclaimers, (single, double or triple ply; canvas, denim or poly; APF, USAPL, WADBl, SLP)

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone with my comments. Powerlifting in its most basic form is one of the best sports ever. However it is currently one of the most fractured and mutated endeavers one could participate in. I have a love/hate relationship with powerlifting. I have competed both with gear and without over the years. I would like to see powerlifting go back to belt only, good deep squats, good pauses on the bench and no hitcihng on the deadlift and most importantly one federation.

Sorry for the tangent but that is my $.50.

Ambient temp and time of day WHAT lol?

[mikebuck]

The term raw should be deleted from the lingo of the iron game. In order to reduce confusion every claim of a lift should include the equipment used, for example, belt, wraps, chalk or whatever. Along with this should come accurate body weight and bar weight as well as ambient temperature and time of day. I think we are in an age where every detail needs to be included in a disclaimer or there should be no claim as to what lift was made. Even the gear lifts need detailed disclaimers, (single, double or triple ply; canvas, denim or poly; APF, USAPL, WADBl, SLP)

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone with my comments. Powerlifting in its most basic form is one of the best sports ever. However it is currently one of the most fractured and mutated endeavers one could participate in. I have a love/hate relationship with powerlifting. I have competed both with gear and without over the years. I would like to see powerlifting go back to belt only, good deep squats, good pauses on the bench and no hitcihng on the deadlift and most importantly one federation.

Sorry for the tangent but that is my $.50.

Ambient temp and time of day WHAT lol?

That was a good one, huh?

[jwils]

I don't like using anything but chalk personally, but I don't see a problem with the use of a belt in RAW divisions - I've used one in the past and never felt like I got anything out of it, in fact my best belted pull is about fifteen pounds lower than my best un-belted pull

[vikingsrule92]

Not sure how much my opinion counts as not a major lifter at all but I say: belt, chalk, straps (grip shouldn't be a limiting factor in DL if you ask me), and anything like neoprene sleeves that only give warmth (I have a few messed up joints, they have never given me any benefit other then injury prevention).

Edited December 16, 2008 by vikingsrule92

[twig]

Raw is when you wear something for protection only. If it adds a few pounds, then that's gravy, NOT the reason you wear it.

Belt(only a fool attempts max without it), sleeves, chalk(if you need it), wrist wraps(for bench).

[The Natural]

Raw is when you wear something for protection only. If it adds a few pounds, then that's gravy, NOT the reason you wear it.

Belt(only a fool attempts max without it), sleeves, chalk(if you need it), wrist wraps(for bench).

I'm afraid it's not that simple. People argue for the inclusion of briefs and wraps on grounds of safety, too.

The issue is at what point we blame the lifter for lacking appropriate strength in the supporting muscles to do the lift, and thereby taking a short-cut in using equipment. Even a belt often compensates for a weak core.

Belt---You need to make your core stronger!

Wrist wraps--Your wrists are weak! Do wrist work! Stop using short-cuts!

You get the idea.

And, of course, you can see how this applies to "gear" in the other sense of the term.

The right answer is going to be complex.

-Rex

[twig]

I'm afraid it's not that simple. People argue for the inclusion of briefs and wraps on grounds of safety, too.

I could argue for a motorbike in the 100m on the grounds of 'safety' (so I don't trip up!), but no one would allow it.

Common sense is the key.

[AP]

I competed "raw" this summer with knee and wrist wraps as well as a belt. Some people are using the term "classic powerlifting" to describe that. I could go either way, wraps or no, even belt or no. They were allowed as raw so I went with it and probably will next year too. The main thing is it cuts down on the cost and hassle of the suits and shirts. I didn't need a crew to put it on me, and if I had to I could have touched/hit depth with an empty bar so its all good.

[The Natural]

Maybe mikebuck's answer to all of this is the right one.

Simply stop using the term 'raw'. It's a term that creates more confusion than clarity, and it often hides many relevant facts about the lifter's equipment.

Better to simply use a full description of the lifter's equipment.

It's long-winded, sure, but it is bad news for all the losers in powerlifting who like to hide what they wore for equipment under the nebulous term 'raw'.

And anything that is bad news for the losers is great news to me.

-Rex

[AP]

Maybe mikebuck's answer to all of this is the right one.

Simply stop using the term 'raw'. It's a term that creates more confusion than clarity, and it often hides many relevant facts about the lifter's equipment.

Better to simply use a full description of the lifter's equipment.

It's long-winded, sure, but it is bad news for all the losers in powerlifting who like to hide what they wore for equipment under the nebulous term 'raw'.

And anything that is bad news for the losers is great news to me.

-Rex

I prefer to think of wraps and a belt as supererogatory, that is, going beyond the minimum required equipment to lift with.

[Klicks]

I consider raw to be no equipment, I do all of my lifts in a t-shirt and shorts or jeans if that's what I am wearing. I don't use a belt because I want a stronger core, I don't use straps because I want a stronger grip, etc. If someone wants to use those that's fine but I don't consider it to be raw.

[shizen]

Maybe mikebuck's answer to all of this is the right one.

Simply stop using the term 'raw'. It's a term that creates more confusion than clarity, and it often hides many relevant facts about the lifter's equipment.

Better to simply use a full description of the lifter's equipment.

It's long-winded, sure, but it is bad news for all the losers in powerlifting who like to hide what they wore for equipment under the nebulous term 'raw'.

And anything that is bad news for the losers is great news to me.

-Rex

I agree with this, so many videos start arguments when they saw 'raw 500lb squat' yet they use knee wraps, belt, briefs, as long as now suit its 'raw'. Better to just list the equipment you used in the lift to avoid arguments. Its clear noone can come to an agreement on the definition so best to just list what you used.

[The Natural]

Maybe mikebuck's answer to all of this is the right one.

Simply stop using the term 'raw'. It's a term that creates more confusion than clarity, and it often hides many relevant facts about the lifter's equipment.

Better to simply use a full description of the lifter's equipment.

It's long-winded, sure, but it is bad news for all the losers in powerlifting who like to hide what they wore for equipment under the nebulous term 'raw'.

And anything that is bad news for the losers is great news to me.

-Rex

I agree with this, so many videos start arguments when they saw 'raw 500lb squat' yet they use knee wraps, belt, briefs, as long as now suit its 'raw'. Better to just list the equipment you used in the lift to avoid arguments. Its clear noone can come to an agreement on the definition so best to just list what you used.

Yeah, I agree. I see videos like that all the time.

This entire discussion about 'raw' reminds me of two attorneys arguing over whether it is in fact KNOWN that the defendant is guilty. The prosecutor says he knows, the defense attorney says he doesn't know because it's possible that...

So instead of continuing a pointless debate about what counts as knowledge, and how certain one must be, the prosecutor just lists the relevant information

-The defendant was found standing over the body of the victim

-The defendant was found holding the gun that killed the victim

-The defendant had threatened the victim with death many times in the past

-The defendant failed a polygraph test related to the murder

Once the relevant information is presented, there's really no need for the term 'know' or any of its cognates. The jury can come to the correct verdict without concerning themselves with semantic debates.

Likewise, once the relevant information about the lift is made clear, there's really no need for the term 'raw'. It adds nothing.

-Rex

[BrandonA]

IMO raw = uncooked

I knew we were over thinking it...LOL...

-B

[twig]

-The defendant was found standing over the body of the victim

A guy is the first one to discover the body.

-The defendant was found holding the gun that killed the victim

And he'd stupidly, but then, he wasn't thinking straight because he'd just discovered a dead body, picked up the gun.

-The defendant had threatened the victim with death many times in the past

The body he'd found was of the guy that raped his daughter

-The defendant failed a polygraph test related to the murder

He was nervous when interviewed by the police.

[The Natural]

-The defendant was found standing over the body of the victim

A guy is the first one to discover the body.

-The defendant was found holding the gun that killed the victim

And he'd stupidly, but then, he wasn't thinking straight because he'd just discovered a dead body, picked up the gun.

-The defendant had threatened the victim with death many times in the past

The body he'd found was of the guy that raped his daughter

-The defendant failed a polygraph test related to the murder

He was nervous when interviewed by the police.

I'm not sure what the point of all this is. Even overwhelming evidence is fallible.

-Rex

[TKtheGreek]

-The defendant was found standing over the body of the victim

A guy is the first one to discover the body.

-The defendant was found holding the gun that killed the victim

And he'd stupidly, but then, he wasn't thinking straight because he'd just discovered a dead body, picked up the gun.

-The defendant had threatened the victim with death many times in the past

The body he'd found was of the guy that raped his daughter

-The defendant failed a polygraph test related to the murder

He was nervous when interviewed by the police.

So much for Rex's Rule 50(a) motion