What's Raw?

[Bill Piche]

There I am reading the latest PLUSA and a picture caption of a squatter says they are RAW in the lift. Well, the lifter has wraps on and a belt!

Wraps, belt, is NOT RAW.

RAW means NOTHING on the body, period. You get up there in your gym shorts and t-shirt (or nylon singlet) and do the lift. No knee sleeves either. Nothing. Zip. Nada. The big donut.

What's everyone think?

[The Mac]

Agree.

[JohanB]

No kneesleves? No elbow warmers? These things provide nothing in terms of support and does not give an ounce in performance enhancement and are merley there to proivde warmth and thus redcuing the risk for certain injuries.

I would also include belts in the "raw" catgory. Do not see a problem there either. A belt might provode a few kilos more in the squat and or deadlift (actually less for me in the deadlift) but the primary function is again protection against injuries.

[jad]

Belt and chalk is raw for me

[mbcx6pmw]

Belt, knee / elbow sleeves + chalk I would say is generally thought of as raw, wraps no.

[Joejoe]

Shorts & Sandals is RAW for me. RAW = You & the Barbell/Dumbbell. NOTHING else.

I'm no sports authority but I know of people who consider the use of a Belt falling under the RAW category. I feel that this is wrong. Anything that "helps" a lifter in a lift is opposite of a RAW mindset. Belts "help" (Allot!) in that they pressurize your core for a more stable lift. (Taking the "work load" off of your abdomen muscles.) Many people loss allot of pounds/kilos off their lift by not using a belt. Thus the use of a Belt should fall under the category of "supportive" gear. And not allowed in a RAW competition. Again this is my "opinion".

[Magnus]

RAW means NOTHING on the body, period. You get up there in your gym shorts and t-shirt (or nylon singlet) and do the lift. No knee sleeves either. Nothing. Zip. Nada. The big donut.

What's everyone think?

Shorts & Sandals is RAW for me. RAW = You & the Barbell/Dumbbell. NOTHING else.

T-shirt, gym shorts and chalk is RAW for me...

...oh, and no straps, either.

[MalachiMcMullen]

Although you wont find me lifting with a belt too often(I used it once, hated it), I still consider belts raw. I was under the impression that "raw" was coined for those gents who still lifted in the tradition of the older PLers from the 50's and 60's. Guys like Reinhouldt. Just a singlet and the occasional belt.

[naturalstrength]

Is this considered "Raw"?

http://2.music.bigpond-images.com/images/A...s-The-Music.jpg

[The Mac]

Regardless of what I considered "Raw", I don't think I would capitalise it.

[thewicked]

other than safety purposes, how man here really think a belt, knee wraps, and wrist wraps really make that big of a difference in your numbers versus say single, double, or multiply gear? Originally supportive gear was just that, to allow people to work harder with significantly less risk of injury which was the original idea behind bench shirts, squat suits, etc. Now it seems like things are designed to aid the lifts and pack on the pounds. Granted I've only competed raw and do plan on doing some single ply feds eventually but I myself would consider a belt and wraps raw.

[BrandonA]

To me, just a belt is raw. I can go with out my wrist wraps, and dont use knee wraps....Sleeves, if the correct ones, can give you much more than you think they do. The basic neoprene ones are cool...I do think I get a some pounds out of my belt, but that may just be mental, or I am just weak...LOL...

This is always an interesting discussion, one that will go on for years, in every aspect of life.....Raw vs. Gear...Old vs. new....Carbs vs. Fuel Injection...Pizza vs. burgers.....Red head vs. blonds...all the same argument, different topic....

-B

[The Natural]

THE CORRECT VIEW

Terms sometimes have various senses, but none of the senses of a term can be deemed inappropriate as long as they are each accepted within some language community or another. Some people think that you only know something if you're certain of it. Others think that you don't have to be certain in order to know something. It's a useless debate arguing which sense of 'know' is correct, as there is no essence of knowledge to be found. There's just knowledge1 and knowledge2, and you need to specify which sense of the term you intended.

Same with 'raw'. There are multiple senses, and each person may have a favorite sense of the term, but there's no way to argue that one sense is correct and the others are not. At most, you can argue that a sense of 'raw' is perhaps not useful to continue using, or it's archaic, or whatever, but you can't argue that one sense is not correct as long as that sense of the term has become entrenched in some language community.

Some various senses of 'raw'

1) No belt, no wraps, no sleeves, no suit, no shirt, no briefs. (Bill's preferred definition)

2) No wraps, no suit, no shirt, no briefs. (My preferred definition)

3) No shirt, no suit. (The definition that Bill finds un-acceptable)

Now, each of these senses of the term is acceptable. Each has been well-established in the history of powerlifting. None of them are new-fangled.

Now, we can mount some arguments based on pragmatic grounds against some of these terms, even though we can't argue that any of them is mistaken. A sense of a term can be impractical and yet still be appropriate.

A Possible Argument Against 3)

Sense 3) allows for wraps and briefs. But these confer a significant advantage, resulting in a higher max. The point of a raw lift, however, is to demonstrate what the lifter can do without any significant advantages from equipment. So sense 3) is not useful, as it does not capture the intention of doing raw meets and raw lifts.

Now, you might wonder why I let belts slide, but not wraps and briefs. I let belts slide because people just ASSUME, almost always, that 'raw' means 'with a belt'. They do not, however, assume the same thing with wraps and briefs. Since this assumption is so widespread, you run the risk of misleading people if you say "raw" when the lifter also didn't even use a belt. We should choose senses of terms that are as non-misleading as possible, since the point of language is clear communication. So I let belts slide.

This all seems like over-kill for such a relaxed discussion, but sometimes you have to get complicated if you want to get the strict truth.

-Rex

[wscorpion]

IMO raw = uncooked

For raw I would also prefer no belts, straps, wraps, suits, or anything that might give you a strength advantage in the lift (except chalk)

[TKtheGreek]

using a belt adds about 30 pounds to my squat, so i consider it equipment. Id say raw is just regular gym clothes nothing else. Never used any elbow warmers so no opinion on those

[naturalstrength]

THE CORRECT VIEW

Terms sometimes have various senses, but none of the senses of a term can be deemed inappropriate as long as they are each accepted within some language community or another. Some people think that you only know something if you're certain of it. Others think that you don't have to be certain in order to know something. It's a useless debate arguing which sense of 'know' is correct, as there is no essence of knowledge to be found. There's just knowledge1 and knowledge2, and you need to specify which sense of the term you intended.

Same with 'raw'. There are multiple senses, and each person may have a favorite sense of the term, but there's no way to argue that one sense is correct and the others are not. At most, you can argue that a sense of 'raw' is perhaps not useful to continue using, or it's archaic, or whatever, but you can't argue that one sense is not correct as long as that sense of the term has become entrenched in some language community.

Some various senses of 'raw'

1) No belt, no wraps, no sleeves, no suit, no shirt, no briefs. (Bill's preferred definition)

2) No wraps, no suit, no shirt, no briefs. (My preferred definition)

3) No shirt, no suit. (The definition that Bill finds un-acceptable)

Now, each of these senses of the term is acceptable. Each has been well-established in the history of powerlifting. None of them are new-fangled.

Now, we can mount some arguments based on pragmatic grounds against some of these terms, even though we can't argue that any of them is mistaken. A sense of a term can be impractical and yet still be appropriate.

A Possible Argument Against 3)

Sense 3) allows for wraps and briefs. But these confer a significant advantage, resulting in a higher max. The point of a raw lift, however, is to demonstrate what the lifter can do without any significant advantages from equipment. So sense 3) is not useful, as it does not capture the intention of doing raw meets and raw lifts.

Now, you might wonder why I let belts slide, but not wraps and briefs. I let belts slide because people just ASSUME, almost always, that 'raw' means 'with a belt'. They do not, however, assume the same thing with wraps and briefs. Since this assumption is so widespread, you run the risk of misleading people if you say "raw" when the lifter also didn't even use a belt. We should choose senses of terms that are as non-misleading as possible, since the point of language is clear communication. So I let belts slide.

This all seems like over-kill for such a relaxed discussion, but sometimes you have to get complicated if you want to get the strict truth.

-Rex

Rex, I think you can write a thesis on the topic of "raw" Very well thought out logic

[Matt Brouse]

Depends on the federations definition. Don't like their definition, don't bother with the federation. Welcome to powerlifting. Whoo hoo.

[Magnus]

No no, guys, we've all been wrong about what the true meaning of "raw" is:

"No, raw means the spotters aren't touching the bar"

Oooohhhh, that makes it perfectly clear

[Chris Mathison]

I did a USAPL meet in the raw division a month ago. It was belt only.. neoprene was ok too. And wrist wraps on the bench. Knee wraps were not allowed.

Edited December 13, 2008 by Chris Mathison

[matthcarl]

Wraps, belt, is NOT RAW.

I agree. It seems like most often when people say raw, they mean unsuited. I am not a crusading purist by any means, but I do not see how you can call a belt+wraps lift raw.

[timiacobucci]

I have only limited observational experience with suits and all that but I think the big split here is between suits and just a belt. I usually mean nothing at all when I say raw, people usually think that means only a belt. The powerlifters at the gym thought I was nuts going real heavy without even a belt. Raw to them was a belt, nothing at all was apparently just stupid.

Raw in the most universal sense I believe is taken to mean only a belt and no suit. The wraps and all are debatable but less pivotal. I don't think a belt is a very big deal depending on what you are training for. If it is for a contested raw meet that uses belts then certainly your definition will include belts.

To me I am training for steel scrolling, a belt will not help me with this and in fact I have a funny story about this. I get in some really odd positions all twisted up and I need to push or pull and brace the movement between my legs and upper body against a pretty decent load at times when I am scrolling. This has lead me to develope a killer valsalva technique along with some serious inner abdominals. I have trained without a belt doing deadlifts for a pretty long time now, not since highschool. I did use it always in highschool though because it was mandatory so I know how to get it tight and get something out of it. Well a powerlifter at the gym was practicing his opener of a 500lbs deadlift. I decided to give it a go after him, and they really wanted me to use a belt, so I did. And this thing was the most massive belt I have ever seen, it was like 1/2" thick or more. Anyways it fit me ok and I went to pull it and I felt REALLY solid, they said the bar bent and I had just started to lift it and I had to stop, I nearly passed out, I am so used to getting allot out of my non-braced valsalva I think my blood pressure spiked so high with the belt I nearly passed out just starting the pull. I wobbled and saw lots of those neat winky spots for a bit. I couldn't believe how much support that enormous belt added.

If I trained with a belt like that I am sure I could pull ALLOT more. But then again it wouldn't cary over for what I need the strength for. If I was just wanting to pull more for a raw meet, you bet your ass my definition of raw would include that belt and I would use the hell out of it.

On a side note though, this just proves to me that the more assistance and supportive gear you use, even a belt, will cause your body to adapt in response to it's use. I feel I am probably stronger and safer lifting max loads with no supportive gear than the powerlifters that are stronger than me who have adapted to them. I mean I would have to actually reduce my non-belt intra abdominal pressure just to be able to use a belt now without passing out.

[John Beatty]

I lift raw....butt naked. The tighty whities add at least 3 lbs & I consider that a deadly sin. Add shorts & look out. I won't even go into jock straps. And in the winter the dry skin....well it's like a big spring attached to my butt.

This is one of those that will go around forever. Raw feds are belt, wraps & chalk. I consider that to be raw. You might get a few lbs out of it, but you're not going to get 300, like the geared feds. I train 90% of my stuff without a belt, to strengthen my core, but a belt is a reasonable piece of equipment, as is chalk, and knee wraps.

[CoC#3]

Elbow sleeves

Wrist wraps

Knee Sleeves

Belt

are ok IMO, the lift would still be RAW. Knee wraps though are NOT RAW. I get 20kg-30kg out of the shorter INZER knee wraps on my squat. I squatted 190kg without wraps then did 220kg with the wraps.

Edited December 13, 2008 by CoC#3

[shizen]

First of all in powerlifting RAW has never existed, it has always been about trying to lift the most weight. Wearing two pairs of jean shorts too tight, and tennis balls behind the knees, ext. Its a relatively new concept in counter to the ridiculous gear being produced getting rid of legitimacy of sport for some. I however have no problem with gear, powerlifting is a sport after all. New gear is being produced in every just about every other sport and will continue to be that way powerlifting should be no different-just look at the crazy technology in past olympics with super suits in swimming, and super fast tracks and pool ext-.

Personally my view is raw is only shoes, t shit, and some shorts and chalk. Thats how I train, however I personally think though for competetion sake a belt and wraps should be allowed because of people with certain injuries and safety. Someone might need wraps of belt for safety because of injury, they should be allowed to use them as they add very little and will protect them from hurting themselves easier. Like someone with wrist injury should use wraps to avoid injury, or someone with slight back problem should use belt to avoid hurting themselves.

[Chris Mathison]

Elbow sleeves

Wrist wraps

Knee Sleeves

Belt

are ok IMO, the lift would still be RAW. Knee wraps though are NOT RAW. I get 20kg-30kg out of the shorter INZER knee wraps on my squat. I squatted 190kg without wraps then did 220kg with the wraps.

Thats USAPL raw and I agree with everything you said.