Goerner vs. apollon

[OldGuy]

I think that many of us have our favorite oldtime strongman that we are in awe of. We admire them so much that we choose to believe what is claimed for them. On the other hand people like Joe Roark have spent many years in researching everything that they can find about these men, and then making a very educated assessment. My personal favorite is Apollon. He was much larger than Goerner, at 6 ' 3 ''

and around 300. Goerner was around 220 lbs and had relatively thin thighs. In my case I do not know nearly as much as Joe Roark, and choose to believe only the lifts of Apollon and Arthur Saxon as far as lifts done outside a competition setting are concerned.

[stratavarious_connection]

thank you all  for  your  continued interest.  

[Roark]

For those who have Goerner The Mighty by Edgar Mueller, I

ask the following questions:

page 19 do you think the photo is staged? notice the

pattern of the shadow castings, and notice that the

bar is resting very off-center on Goerner's shoulder.

page 31 do you really think that the apparatus plus those

two smallish men weighed together 392 lbs.? The apparatus

is no more than a swing chair, and the men? Are these the

same men as are shown on page 43?

Just curious.

[Nathan Say]

To me, it doesn't look like the bar is off-centre, but if it is it could be because it wouldn't be balanced if it was. It would have to be off-centre because one pair of guys outweighs the other pair. I have to do the same thing when I'm lifting because one of my 45s weighs less than the others. Anyway I don't think it's off-centre. As for the shadows, maybe there was more than one lighting source? It says that he did that carry in a circus, where there would be a bunch of people to see it, and since there are guys today who can do the same thing (eg. Steve Justa) I don't think it was fixed. With that clean & jerk with the two guys, say the bar weighs 20lbs (conservative guess), & the chairs together weigh 20lbs, that's only 175 for each guy, I don't think that's very much. That's more believable than Louis Cyr's backlift with 20 200lb+ guys.

[Roark]

Thanks, Nathan. Soon the photos under discussion will

be posted in the Iron History Gallery, so everyone will

have a chance to judge.

[stratavarious_connection]

the men on the  bar  appear to weigh no more than 130lbs  each....they are all very short

[Roark]

Willoughby, writing in VIM magazine May 1941, discussing the

outcome of of a contest including these lifts:

two hands military press, two hands curl, two hands deadlift,

one hand deadlift, and the hand and thigh lift. Noting that almost nothing is known of Apollon's pressing power (he snatched and swung his weights, or jerked them), Willoughby

wrote, "So, to sum up, my estimate would be that in all-round strength...and judged, not by total poundage, but by the percentage system, Apollon would be third, slightly behind Cyr and Swoboda, but definitely ahead of Gorner and Rigoulot".

Does anyone here can a can-of-worms opener?

:crazy

[Roark]

Nick,

Could you please supply me with the source of the

Pullum statement that Goerner was the strongest of the strong?

I know Van Diggelen attributed a similar statement to

Pullum in S&H Aug 1953 p 37 where WAP is quoted as

saying 'Of all the great strong men I HAVE KNOWN he is

easily the greatest' [emphasis mine]

I must admit I do not know whether Pullum met Apollon.

[Arne]

I just wonder if the English movie (mentioned in Müllers book)  about some of Görner feat is still exist? Perhaps it would be possible to give Görner a good examination of his strenght.

[OldGuy]

Tromp Van Diggelen was the manager mentor of people like Goerner and Maxick and as such had a vested interest in claiming they were the best. He also said that Austrian Josef Steinbach could outlift Arthur Saxon, but that Saxon declined the challenge.

[Tou]

I think we won't find the strongest but we could determine the strongest in general fields.

Here's my positions.

Grip : Goerner, by far.

Deadlift : Goerner.

Squat : Anderson, without any doubt.

OH press (1 or 2 hands) : Cyr

Curls (1 or 2 hands) : Cyr, by far.

Overall strength : Appolon

Thick handle : Cyr.

Rocks, backlift and objects : Cyr (think about his one hand barrel lifts and 550 + rock lift).

This way, each man gets his part of the cake.

Old time strong men are truly fascinating and they generate good debates. The most important thing is to recognize these men as pionneers, models and inspirations : no drugs, no equipement, only true desire to be strong and stronger. Plus, most of these men were very humble. Louis Cyr never challenged anybody. Other people came to him claiming that he couldn't reproduce their feats. He wasn't show off but he beat them all at their own feats.

[Nathan Say]

IMO Doug Hepburn was the best presser & curler. Cyr was definitely the best with funny weird objects. Apollon was best with thick handles. I don't think Cyr's hands were long enough to be really good with thick handles. If whatever he was lifting wasn't too big for his hands, then he had a really strong grip, but only if it wasn't too big for his hands.

[Tou]

Hepburn was a very strong presser and curler but I think that Cyr would have outpass him by a lot of weight. Cyr one hand pressed pressed thick handle dumbells weighing over 225 lbs. How did he get them to shoulder : one arm curl. Mind boggling. He curled weights that some self-called strongmen couldn't even lift off the floor. Most of his dumbells were thick handled.

[Guest]

Joe,

That quote is in "Goerner the Mighty" (p.133, half way down the poge in my copy) and I admit I haven't cross referenced it as some of my books by Pullum are still in the UK. Pullum as you know was a stickler though and I don't believe he would have said this if he hadn't believed it.

I have looked at those and many other pictures in books before. No doubt some were staged, mainly due to the fact that photography wasn't very good back then. I also understand that Hermann wasn't the best performer in the world. I'm sure a show by the Saxon's or Sandow was visually more impressive but Hermann wasn't a natural showman.

My stance on Hermann though is soley for his gripping strength - I don't think I made that clear. No doubt others were stronger in many other feats but all round he was stunning!

You're right it's a can of worms that will never be finished. I would love to see the book "The Kings of Strength" to see what else Apollon did - he is second on my all time list after all (see Iron Grip issue 3).

Nick

GOERNER RULES!

[Sybersnott]

It's safe to assume that when writing a book about a particular subject, you'll never see that subject lose a match or a lifting challenge to anyone in the book.  You speak of some of the strongest men who ever lived... Goerner, Cyr, Saxon, Aston, Anderson, Hepburn, etc.  What a class of strength there!  :crazy

One of the biggest fakers in my opinion was Sandow.  He doesn't impress me at all, and if he had to go to court to prove himself, (like he did against Saxon) that makes him a lesser man in my eyes.  

Each man had a "pet" lift that he excelled in.  Arthur Saxon's was the bent press.  Hermann Goerner's was deadlifting - either by one hand or two.  Paul Anderson's was the squat.

And reading whatever you want about a particular strongman in one publication, there will always be something contradictory about him in some other publication.  Never fails.

[Roark]

No one has ever been strong enough to one arm

curl 225 lbs. Indeed, if strict curling is being discussed,

that's a proud amount for a two armed curl.

Cyr swung or cleaned such amounts with one arm unless

there is a text somewhere that I have missed.

I suspect Hepburn was a better curler than Cyr, but when

Doug lifted one of Cyr's bells in Canada (the 167.5 pounder)

he cleaned and pressed it, not curled and pressed it.

When Cyr had his famous dumbell loaded to 273 and to 258

the former for his right hand, the latter for his left hand, he

brought the bell to the shoulder using two hands, then put

it overhead one handed.

This was his most famous bell with the 1.51" diameter handle.

[Tou]

Thanks for the precision Joe. I heard Ben Weider describes the way Cyr lifted the dumbell but again, when you're fascinated by someone (Cyr is Weider's idol), you tend to give more than the customer asks.

[RSW]

OH press (1 or 2 hands) : Cyr

      Did Cyr beat Anderson's OHP and sidepress?  I think Anderson had a top OHP of 565lb. and sidepress with 380.  Anderson also bench press 625.  He was a tremendous presser as well as squatter.

Robert

[Roark]

Paul Anderson's best official two hands clean and press

was 408.9 lbs on Oct 16, 1955.

Two hands clean and jerk, official best, 440 lbs on Jun 2,1956.

Two hands snatch 335 lbs Jun 2, 1956.

Rumors abound on what he did unofficially.

All of his one arm lifts, of whatever descriptions, were

unofficial. But to consider that, to my knowledge, he always

cleaned his heavy dumbell efforts with two hands, it is

unlikely he could have cleaned 380 on a dumbell, and I

have never heard of anyone claiming he used a barbell for

his one arm side presses.

Any photos that I have seen do not indicate the total

poundage that would match some of these heavier claims.

Perhaps someone else has seen such photos?

[Roark]

Regarding Apollon/Goerner, the following passage from VIM

magazine Mar 1941 by Leo Gaudreau illustrates my feelings.

He quotes Prof. Desbonnet from a letter dated Oct 7, 1931

(11 years after Goerner's very famous deadlifts, but does not mention them):

Desbonnet wrote: "Personally, I like to think that Apollon was the most powerful human that ever lived, but all my friends know about my great liking for stage and Circus and they would say I'm singing praises to another performer. Regardless I would not care to be so dogmatic as to nominate a man for that position. Saxon lifted more one hand and two hands than any man before or since. There are Gorner's deadlifts, two hands over-grip style with 661 lbs. and one handdead lift

with 602."

Was Desbonnet unaware of the higher deadlift claims for Goerner? Why does not Gaudreau, in this article ten years

after Desbonnet's letter was written, add a correction?

When did these higher claims first see print? Does anyone have European sources of history to answer these questions?

[ChrisJames]

Sorry to bring this back up , but i think Leo Gaudreau was a little bit bias against Goerner in Anvils, horseshoes and cannons.

I also think that Chuck Ahrens was probably strongest ever on shoulder and curling exercises.

[Roark]

Chris,

Better to be biased for or against, than to be prejudiced

for or against. Most people are the latter. Gaudreau

was the former in this case, in spite of all the photos, and

documents, and witnesses, and early mentions of these

super heavy feats.(oops, those forms of proof have not

appeared?)

Leo was writing based on the absence of proof. On what

basis are the exponents of these claims writing?

???

[OldGuy]

People seem to be clearly biased in favor of their personal favorite oldtime strongman. Based on mostly this alone they choose to believe nearly everything claimed for them. My favorite is Apollon as he is the most interesting. He lifted weights only in order to make a living in very hard times. I am not in a position to know one way or the other what the facts about his lifts are. Joe Roark weighs up the evidence and we either go along with him or continue to see things our way.

[ChrisJames]

Joe, i agree with you and i have some of David Chapmans translations of Desbonets work.Louis Uni's strength was incredible, iwas particulary impressed with what he called the roman column, showing all round power.

It also mentions his fantastic one hand swing ability with four 20 kg weights gripped together.(some times even five),but only gives his one hand swing with barbell at 160 lbs.

I have talked with Joe Assirati about Goerner and he told me his power was immense. He once saw him without warm up one hand deadlift well over 600 lbs with ease and hold it for around 10 seconds in lock out position.He also witnessed him swing over 200 in street clothes.Both titans of POWER.

[Roark]

Chris,

When did Mr. Assirati tell you this, and when did he witness

it (about what year?).

This sheds new light on the matter. Charles A. Smith told me

that Assirati was a reliable source, so can you tell us more

please?