Goerner vs. apollon

[stratavarious_connection]

There has been much debate as to who was/ is the ultimate grip athlete of all  time. Both Goerner and Apollon  most certainly rate at or near the top for most current grip masters. Making comparisons of the two I  have  found to  be extremely  difficult....even   considering their credentials( e.g. height, bodyweight, hand size, consistency, the years ( dates ) in which they  performed,   & their PR's)   .....therefore I ask.... who do we think is the  ultimate of the two, and more importantly  why? ( informed opinions  prefered )

[Nathan Say]

I think Apollon was better with thick bars (but then Goerner did have that challenge barbell...) & did that big pinch/muscle-out with 2 45s, but I think Goerner's 727 1-arm deadlift is the biggest feat of hand strength ever, especially since it was done the hard way with the bar in front. Goerner was also better at carrying things on his back.

[Sybersnott]

According to Dale Harder, Goerner's feat is NOT the greatest grip feat of all time.  Do you know what is?  (Betcha don't!)

[Nathan Say]

Could it be...

1. Apollon's near-snatch of his 'baby axle'?

2. Arthur Saxon's 1-arm pinch-grip snatch of his 4" wide 90lb plank?

3. Richard Sorin reverse curl of 60kg (62kg? something like that) on a 3" bar?

4. Something else by Richard Sorin or maybe John Brookfield?

5. Slim's levering?

6. the Dinnie Stones?

7. probably something I haven't thought of

Where did Dale Harder write that? I've got Speed & STrength & I don't think I saw anything about the biggest grip/hand feat.

[Roark]

Nathan,

What is Apollon's 'baby axle'?

Also, as solid dumbells have larger diameter

spheres, does the tendency to rotate increase? Is there

a formula? Thanks.

[Sybersnott]

Nathan,

Wrong on all those guesses.  Look at the grip section, and the points given... that should reveal the answer!

BTW, it's in the "You Can Compare Apples To Oranges" book, if you don't have it... let me know and I'll tell you the answer.

[Nathan Say]

Roark

The baby axle (my name for it here) would be the 226lbs one that Steve G has modelled his MCdb after. Baby compared to that other one that John Davis, etc c&j-ed.

There is a formula for the moment of inertia of a sphere. Since a sphere's mass m=(density)x(4/3)x(pi)x(radius)^3, the moment of inertia is I=(2/5)x(mass)x(radius)^2. That's the rotational equivalent of mass. A rotating body with a big moment of inertia is hard to keep from rotating, just as a barbell with a big mass is hard to lift off the floor. (^2 means squared & ^3 means cubed if you didn't already know) So if the mass stays the same, the moment of inertia would increase by 2/5 for every unit the radius is increased. The units are kg*m^2 (say kilogram-metres squared)

Snott

What does Dale Harder say? btw #3 was done with a false (thumbless) grip

[BarBender]

The rotational inertia formula given is for a solid sphere rotating about a diameter of the given sphere. To calculate the rotational inertia for a dumbbell we first need to decide on an axis of rotation. Nathan's point is correct in that the rotational inertia increases as the spherical diameter of each bell increases.

[RiotGrip]

Sybersnott,

could the greatest grip feat of all time be warren Lincoln Travis's 2 finger lift of 1000+ lbs?

[Roark]

Travis' 1,105 lbs 'two finger' lift involved far more

than two fingers.

[Roark]

stratavarious,

Your view on your original question?

[stratavarious_connection]

Roark,                                                                                      thanks for your reply.  well...I   believe I kinda already did  give my  view.... I  simply  haven't been able to come to a conclusion  of who is better. I  honestly don't know how  conclude who is better by making   comparisons  of  their PR's  for  a few reasons.... but probably the    biggest  reason is, it appears that their PR's don't indicate maximal effort

[Nathan Say]

IIf Goerner couldn't replicate some of his best lifts, he was probably at his limit. I doubt Leonid Taranenko could have clean & jerked 266 whenever he felt like it. It would seem that Apollon was never really tested so we don't know what he could have done, but we've only got what he DID do & that's all we've got to go by. It's not what they could have done, but what they actually did.

[Roark]

Other than the mishap with the jail bar bending incident

which so zapped Apollon that he could not finish his

performance, I know of no time he ever failed, or of

anyone claiming that he was less than stellar. Indeed,

other strongmen were stunned by the casual approach

with which he hosited monster weights.

The same cannot be said of Goerner, who failed to

duplicate lifts, and regarding whom Gaudreau did not

include certain deadlift claims because he considered

them unproven.

Of one thing I am certain- had they met, and someone

indicated to Apollon that he had met his match in

Goerner, Apollon would have kicked into a strength

overdrive we cannot imagine.

Keep in mind that Desbonnet labeled two men as Super

and one of them was not Goerner.

[stratavarious_connection]

interesting roark...but who were those two super men?...thanks for the comments

[Roark]

They were Apollon (Louis Uni), and

Louis Cyr, with the first Louis ranked

first in overall strength in my opinion.

[RiotGrip]

To say that Apollon never failed, then what is this constant mention of his "near snatch" of 226lbs on a 2 inch bar.  I think Apollon's lift claims should be treated the same way as Anderson's he either did them, or didn't.  Not to take anything away from Louis Uni, but when someone says "nearly snatched", that implies that he failed to do a proper snatch.  Just my opinion.

[RSW]

True, but he only made one attempt, and probably would have gotten it if he had deigned to dip under the dumbell.  That is why the near snatch of the original "Millenium dumbell" is so significant.  Read Roarke's "Iron History" for details.

Robert

[RSW]

Now that I recollect, the challenge was to deadlift the 'bell, which he did succeed in doing in a spectacular fashion.  Just think, the current day gripmasters are competing to see who can lift a replica of a dumbell which Apollon nearly snatched ! :0

Robert

[stratavarious_connection]

near snatch didn't  mean  that  was  he trying to  do a  snatch and  failed , but rather, he had  pulled the  barbell so  high in front of him  that it  would  have been possible to have snatched the weight, had  he been using the proper technique....only apollon knew what  he was trying to  do with  the weight. I haven't  read or  heard anything   about what he was trying to  do with the  weight. It is just known  that   anger precipatated the  lift.

[stratavarious_connection]

precipitated*....god, my     spelling is  horrible:  :hehe

[Nathan Say]

The story is that Marx (I think) 1-hand deadlifted it & said to Apollon "I'm the only one who can do this" & Apollon said, "Oh yeah? Watch me snatch it" so he went up & pulled it to shoulder height with 1 arm before it slipped. Frustrated, he then he said, "Uh....oh yeah? Well, I've had more women than you!". So he did try to snatch it but he couldn't. It's still a pretty goof lift though if nobody can lift a 'replica' today. Of course, he probably would have done it if he'd trained for it for a while.

[Roark]

Apollon failed in the snatch in question, not from lack

of strength- he took a one arm snatch to the next level.

If Mark Henry tries to snatch the Inch replica, and pulls it

so high with so much force, and does not dip (Apollon

disdained dipping because it indicated a lack of pulling power)

and instead of Henry pulling the snatch overhead he loses

the weight in a rearward direction OVER HIS HEAD, so that

the bell lands (nor rolls, lands) several feet behind him, will

anyone think this is less of a lift than the intended one arm

snatch? Not me.

To me it is similar to a man trying to jerk a heavy weight

overhead, but he loses his grip at the top of the lift and the

bell goes upward about two feet higher than he would have

locked out with it. You know you have seen something then,

because the usual max effort is to simply jerk the bell far enough to enable the arms to lock.

RSW is right- Apollon was challenged to only deadlift the bell

which was approx 226 lbs- so it could be said technically that

he failed to deadlift it because he took it to another stage.

I have done a little reading in this field and have never encountered anyone whose strength was so consistently above other strongmen as was Apollon's. He literally stunned

even those who were used to seeing him perform

frequently. Men not easily impressed, men who were themselves strength performers.

Head of the class!

[RSW]

Is there any possibility Marx was using a lighter dumbell than the 226 ?  Apollon's lift is so far ahead of what anyone is doing today, that you have to wonder if Marx was playing with a lighter challenge dumbell, much like Inch used to do, and Apollon caught him with the lighter dumbell.  Imagine if Inch was playing with one of his lighter stage dumbells and then Apollon came by and tried to lift it. Just a thought.

Robert

[stratavarious_connection]

thanks  everyone for your input and  continued interest