stratavarious_connection Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 There has been much debate as to who was/ is the ultimate grip athlete of all time. Both Goerner and Apollon most certainly rate at or near the top for most current grip masters. Making comparisons of the two I have found to be extremely difficult....even considering their credentials( e.g. height, bodyweight, hand size, consistency, the years ( dates ) in which they performed, & their PR's) .....therefore I ask.... who do we think is the ultimate of the two, and more importantly why? ( informed opinions prefered ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Say Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 I think Apollon was better with thick bars (but then Goerner did have that challenge barbell...) & did that big pinch/muscle-out with 2 45s, but I think Goerner's 727 1-arm deadlift is the biggest feat of hand strength ever, especially since it was done the hard way with the bar in front. Goerner was also better at carrying things on his back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybersnott Posted August 4, 2002 Share Posted August 4, 2002 According to Dale Harder, Goerner's feat is NOT the greatest grip feat of all time. Do you know what is? (Betcha don't!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Say Posted August 4, 2002 Share Posted August 4, 2002 Could it be... 1. Apollon's near-snatch of his 'baby axle'? 2. Arthur Saxon's 1-arm pinch-grip snatch of his 4" wide 90lb plank? 3. Richard Sorin reverse curl of 60kg (62kg? something like that) on a 3" bar? 4. Something else by Richard Sorin or maybe John Brookfield? 5. Slim's levering? 6. the Dinnie Stones? 7. probably something I haven't thought of Where did Dale Harder write that? I've got Speed & STrength & I don't think I saw anything about the biggest grip/hand feat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted August 5, 2002 Share Posted August 5, 2002 Nathan, What is Apollon's 'baby axle'? Also, as solid dumbells have larger diameter spheres, does the tendency to rotate increase? Is there a formula? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybersnott Posted August 5, 2002 Share Posted August 5, 2002 Nathan, Wrong on all those guesses. Look at the grip section, and the points given... that should reveal the answer! BTW, it's in the "You Can Compare Apples To Oranges" book, if you don't have it... let me know and I'll tell you the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Say Posted August 5, 2002 Share Posted August 5, 2002 Roark The baby axle (my name for it here) would be the 226lbs one that Steve G has modelled his MCdb after. Baby compared to that other one that John Davis, etc c&j-ed. There is a formula for the moment of inertia of a sphere. Since a sphere's mass m=(density)x(4/3)x(pi)x(radius)^3, the moment of inertia is I=(2/5)x(mass)x(radius)^2. That's the rotational equivalent of mass. A rotating body with a big moment of inertia is hard to keep from rotating, just as a barbell with a big mass is hard to lift off the floor. (^2 means squared & ^3 means cubed if you didn't already know) So if the mass stays the same, the moment of inertia would increase by 2/5 for every unit the radius is increased. The units are kg*m^2 (say kilogram-metres squared) Snott What does Dale Harder say? btw #3 was done with a false (thumbless) grip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarBender Posted August 6, 2002 Share Posted August 6, 2002 The rotational inertia formula given is for a solid sphere rotating about a diameter of the given sphere. To calculate the rotational inertia for a dumbbell we first need to decide on an axis of rotation. Nathan's point is correct in that the rotational inertia increases as the spherical diameter of each bell increases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiotGrip Posted August 6, 2002 Share Posted August 6, 2002 Sybersnott, could the greatest grip feat of all time be warren Lincoln Travis's 2 finger lift of 1000+ lbs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted August 6, 2002 Share Posted August 6, 2002 Travis' 1,105 lbs 'two finger' lift involved far more than two fingers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted August 7, 2002 Share Posted August 7, 2002 stratavarious, Your view on your original question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratavarious_connection Posted August 7, 2002 Author Share Posted August 7, 2002 Roark, thanks for your reply. well...I believe I kinda already did give my view.... I simply haven't been able to come to a conclusion of who is better. I honestly don't know how conclude who is better by making comparisons of their PR's for a few reasons.... but probably the biggest reason is, it appears that their PR's don't indicate maximal effort Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Say Posted August 7, 2002 Share Posted August 7, 2002 IIf Goerner couldn't replicate some of his best lifts, he was probably at his limit. I doubt Leonid Taranenko could have clean & jerked 266 whenever he felt like it. It would seem that Apollon was never really tested so we don't know what he could have done, but we've only got what he DID do & that's all we've got to go by. It's not what they could have done, but what they actually did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted August 7, 2002 Share Posted August 7, 2002 Other than the mishap with the jail bar bending incident which so zapped Apollon that he could not finish his performance, I know of no time he ever failed, or of anyone claiming that he was less than stellar. Indeed, other strongmen were stunned by the casual approach with which he hosited monster weights. The same cannot be said of Goerner, who failed to duplicate lifts, and regarding whom Gaudreau did not include certain deadlift claims because he considered them unproven. Of one thing I am certain- had they met, and someone indicated to Apollon that he had met his match in Goerner, Apollon would have kicked into a strength overdrive we cannot imagine. Keep in mind that Desbonnet labeled two men as Super and one of them was not Goerner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratavarious_connection Posted August 8, 2002 Author Share Posted August 8, 2002 interesting roark...but who were those two super men?...thanks for the comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted August 8, 2002 Share Posted August 8, 2002 They were Apollon (Louis Uni), and Louis Cyr, with the first Louis ranked first in overall strength in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiotGrip Posted August 8, 2002 Share Posted August 8, 2002 To say that Apollon never failed, then what is this constant mention of his "near snatch" of 226lbs on a 2 inch bar. I think Apollon's lift claims should be treated the same way as Anderson's he either did them, or didn't. Not to take anything away from Louis Uni, but when someone says "nearly snatched", that implies that he failed to do a proper snatch. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSW Posted August 8, 2002 Share Posted August 8, 2002 True, but he only made one attempt, and probably would have gotten it if he had deigned to dip under the dumbell. That is why the near snatch of the original "Millenium dumbell" is so significant. Read Roarke's "Iron History" for details. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSW Posted August 8, 2002 Share Posted August 8, 2002 Now that I recollect, the challenge was to deadlift the 'bell, which he did succeed in doing in a spectacular fashion. Just think, the current day gripmasters are competing to see who can lift a replica of a dumbell which Apollon nearly snatched ! :0 Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratavarious_connection Posted August 8, 2002 Author Share Posted August 8, 2002 near snatch didn't mean that was he trying to do a snatch and failed , but rather, he had pulled the barbell so high in front of him that it would have been possible to have snatched the weight, had he been using the proper technique....only apollon knew what he was trying to do with the weight. I haven't read or heard anything about what he was trying to do with the weight. It is just known that anger precipatated the lift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratavarious_connection Posted August 8, 2002 Author Share Posted August 8, 2002 precipitated*....god, my spelling is horrible: :hehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Say Posted August 8, 2002 Share Posted August 8, 2002 The story is that Marx (I think) 1-hand deadlifted it & said to Apollon "I'm the only one who can do this" & Apollon said, "Oh yeah? Watch me snatch it" so he went up & pulled it to shoulder height with 1 arm before it slipped. Frustrated, he then he said, "Uh....oh yeah? Well, I've had more women than you!". So he did try to snatch it but he couldn't. It's still a pretty goof lift though if nobody can lift a 'replica' today. Of course, he probably would have done it if he'd trained for it for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted August 8, 2002 Share Posted August 8, 2002 Apollon failed in the snatch in question, not from lack of strength- he took a one arm snatch to the next level. If Mark Henry tries to snatch the Inch replica, and pulls it so high with so much force, and does not dip (Apollon disdained dipping because it indicated a lack of pulling power) and instead of Henry pulling the snatch overhead he loses the weight in a rearward direction OVER HIS HEAD, so that the bell lands (nor rolls, lands) several feet behind him, will anyone think this is less of a lift than the intended one arm snatch? Not me. To me it is similar to a man trying to jerk a heavy weight overhead, but he loses his grip at the top of the lift and the bell goes upward about two feet higher than he would have locked out with it. You know you have seen something then, because the usual max effort is to simply jerk the bell far enough to enable the arms to lock. RSW is right- Apollon was challenged to only deadlift the bell which was approx 226 lbs- so it could be said technically that he failed to deadlift it because he took it to another stage. I have done a little reading in this field and have never encountered anyone whose strength was so consistently above other strongmen as was Apollon's. He literally stunned even those who were used to seeing him perform frequently. Men not easily impressed, men who were themselves strength performers. Head of the class! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSW Posted August 8, 2002 Share Posted August 8, 2002 Is there any possibility Marx was using a lighter dumbell than the 226 ? Apollon's lift is so far ahead of what anyone is doing today, that you have to wonder if Marx was playing with a lighter challenge dumbell, much like Inch used to do, and Apollon caught him with the lighter dumbell. Imagine if Inch was playing with one of his lighter stage dumbells and then Apollon came by and tried to lift it. Just a thought. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratavarious_connection Posted August 8, 2002 Author Share Posted August 8, 2002 thanks everyone for your input and continued interest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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