Goerner vs. apollon

[Roark]

RSW,

While it is possible that bell-switching happened, it is

unlikely in this case because the bell belonged to Prof.

Desbonnet who tooks these matters seriously. It weighed

226 with a 2.38" diameter handle (almost exactly the size

and weight of the Millennium bell, which has a handle the

diameter of the Inch original, not the Inch replica).

It would have been foolish to challenge Apollon with a

lighter weight- he was tricked a couple of times- but in

both cases with increased, not decreased, poundage. In

neither case did he notice he was lifting additional weight.

Three men had managed to get the bell off the floor- just as

several men can get the Inch off the floor- that is a world

away from cleaning it, and another world away from throwing

it over one's head.

When it comes to Apollon, he was like Saxon inthe bent press,

so much strength, no need to fudge.

[RiotGrip]

I understand that Apollon went beyone the challenge issued to him, but that doesn't mean that missing a snatch should be called a record.  Furthermore, one person says "if he had dipped then he would have easily made the lift", then another says, "he was so powerful it went higher than it should have, and fell behind him"  Now, it stands to reason, that if he got it so high, a dip would only hinder the lift.  And if he realized that he put too much power into the lift, why not try it with something heavier?  I'm not trying to call anyone's integrity into question here, I'm really not clear on the whole "near snatch" idea.  It is the same principle that Roark has mentioned in the past about Paul Anderson and everyone saying, "He did this (or almost did this) but most certainly could have done more".  Louis Uni is by far one of the strongest people to have ever walked the earth, but he only did what he did, it is very hard to predict what he could have done at his best.  However I'll concede that he probably never did reach his potential--but not because he didn't feel like lifting more, because he didn't train hard enough!

[Arne]

I really hope that my hands are strong enough to lift (not clean and pressed) John Grün (Marx) challenge dumbbells in September when I'm visiting Luxembourg. If I failed it's ok, because the must be difficult to lift anyway.

[Roark]

Arne,

Good luck with the attempt, but lift or fail,

close-up photos, and measurements, please!

[Roark]

The challenge to Apollon was, 'can you deadlift this with

one hand'? How high does a deadlift have to go?

He did not set a snatch record on this occasion.

Again, if I barely deadlift the Inch (fantasy here) and

Mark Henry cleans it, shall I point out that only I performed

a proper deadlift? Does the audience care?

[Tou]

I would have payed a lot to see Louis Cyr give a try at Inch clean and press. I think he would have toyed with it. He was VERY strong with thick handles and there has never been a better presser, especially one handed press. He is a legend here in Québec. I strongly suggest his biography, written by Joe Weider.

[Roark]

Tou,

The bio is by Ben Weider.

[supersqueeze]

Maybe we could clear-up a little confusion by refering to the Apollon lift not as near snatch but as a successful 226 lb thick handled DB thrown overhead for height.

Mike M.

[Tou]

You're right Joe, sorry.

Anyway, I think we can't exclude Louis Cyr when talking of best grip athletes ever. David Horne ranked Cyr 3rd on his list after Goerner (easy first). I don't remember who was second.

[RiotGrip]

Tou,

Louis "Apollon" Uni was 2nd on David Horne's list.  Also, I believe Richard Sorin was #3, and Cyr was #4.

[Tou]

Thanks for the precision Greg !

I also would have like to see some of these old time strong men squeeze the grippers. I seriously think we would have 2 or 3 #4 closers : Goerner, Cyr and Appolon would be good picks. When I'll be in Montreal, I'll stop at Louis-Cyr Museum to see some of his dumbells and barbells.

[RSW]

Not unless they trained for it. No one closes a #4 without a lot of specific training.

Robert

[Roark]

Tou,

If you stop at the Cyr display (museum) please get

photos! When will you be there?

[paul valpreda]

Shoudn't the great Arthur Saxon be included in this discussion?

[paul valpreda]

Sorry for the misspelling before. I meant to say, Shouldn't the great Arthur Saxon be included in this discussion?

[RSW]

Shouldn't the great Arthur Saxon be included in this discussion?

     No way! He couldn't even lift the Inch

[Roark]

Depending on what lift to which you refer, Inch could

not lift the Inch.

In my opinion, Arthur Saxon never tried to lift the Inch,

and Inch never indicated Arthur failed with the Inch bell

until the autumn of the year in which summer Saxon died.

[Tou]

I have a job in Montreal, as a 4th grade teacher, and I begin august 22. It's not a big musuem but a few pieces with Cyr's pictures, descriptions and lifting objects. It has been built by Ben Weider and Marcel de la Sablonnière (a priest who devoted his entire life to allow poor child to practice sports).

I'll take pics for sure !

[Roark]

My friend, and wonderful researcher, David Chapman some time ago presented me with 'This first unedited version of

The Kings of Strength'- David's translation of Professor

Desbonnet's classic book.

I have an unfair advantage over some who are posting here

thinking that Apollon was not the best ever grip man. There

are stories about Apollon in Desbonnet's book that I have never encountered elsewhere, and would not in fact be aware of the freakish strength of Apollon's hands were it not for David's kindness in sending this translation to me.

Strongman after strongman after battling or testing Apollon simply shook their heads in disbelief and were amazed at the

strata of strength differences between themselves and Apollon- and these were very strong men. One man proud

that he could lift his own special weight one rep, challenged

Apollon to try, to which Apollon said, 'How many people are here?' and was told 12. He then lifted the weight 12 reps without replacing it on the ground, and when the waitress walked in Apollon made a 13th rep saying, 'Here's one for the waitress!'

David is working on the final edit of his translation, or will be soon. If he can find a publisher, we will all be the richer and Apollon will get his rightful regard.

Am I prejudiced in Apollon's favor? Not one bit. Am I biased after having access to this material? You betcha!

[gazza]

I agree with Roarke,

I think Apollon was not tested,how many people past or present could hoist 4x56lbs ring block weights,1 handed to arms length,i personally think this a greater strength feat than the inch overhead,but of coarse i woud not mind being able to do either.

Roarke do you think mark henry capable of the 4 blockweights

overhead.

[Guest Ike]

You've all got me fired up now! This is what its all about.Anyone know where I can do some reading on Appllon?

All I've got is a very old book (1940) called 'Mighty Men Of Old' volume 1. Its got sections on different strongmen.Our old mate Apollon is on the back page with two photos.

Out of curiosity it tells some ofhis measurements- don't know how accurate they are but here they are anyway-

height 6' 3"

weight- about 300

50 3/4 " normal chest

40 waist

20 1/4 bicep

and get this- 19 1/4 " forearm-largest on record it says.

30" thighs

Theres some good stuff in the book.

[Guest]

I'm gonna stick up for Hermann Goerner here! It's almost got to the stage of Hermann Bashing!!!

Just as Desbonnet documented Apollon, Edgar Mueller documented Goerner. It really comes down to who you believe. If you are saying, Joe, that Apollon was never really taxed then the same can be said for Goerner. Many. many of his lifts were not his limit attempts - JUST LIKE APOLLON. Many times he lifted just for the #### of it and amazed everyone with his talent - JUST LIKE APOLLON. In "Goerner the Mighty", there are many pictures of Hermann lifting ridiculous weights with an almost nonchalant look on his face. Every lift is documented with a date and place. Whether you believe these lifts is up to you. As with Apollon you are trusting the author not the man! Goerner may have not made certian lifts at certain times. Did you ever take into consideration that Hermann was severely injured during the war and spent time in a POW camp?! Perhaps this might have stopped him making such lifts until he regained full strength. Perhaps Apollon chose to shun the limelight when he was not at his best? Who knows?

Even men like W.A. Pullum "The Wizard of Weightlifting" said that Herman was,

         "The strongest of all the world's strongest men".

I think Pullum knew what he was talking about don't you?

I have read what Kurt Saxon said to Leo Gaudreau. It sounds to me like pure and simple jealousy. Hermann was stronger and if Kurt had taught him many of his feats and tricks with barbells as he also stated, then Hermann had only taken them to another level, like a true champion only would.

Hermann has documented feats of strength in every facet of both all round strength AND all round grip strength. I don't have the 'Kings of Strength' but I have most other books that include these two great Strongmen. They were both immense but in my opinion Hermann Goerner had the stronger grip. AS for Apollon lifting the kettle weights mentioned as a feat of grip and all round strength figure this. Herman did a similar but better feat,

"...Hermann swung with his right hand...two kettleweights totalling 209.5lbs (95kg)! ...then followed this collossal right- arm swing by swinging to arms length the two additional bells each weighing 50kilos or 110.5 english pounds," (Goerner the Mighty, page 49)

Think about that one.

They were both amazing.

Nick

GOERNER RULES!

[Roark]

No bashing from me.

Desbonnet documented dozens upon dozens of strong men and concluded that Apollon & Cyr were the greatest.

Mueller documented Goerner and concluded that Goerner

was the greatest.

When Goerner failed to match the lifts in from of Saxon, your

time frame is off- this happened long before Hermann suffered

war privations, so that logic does not wash.

In this case, no, I do not think Pullum reached the right

conclusion.

Saxon had no reason to be jealous of Goerner.

Gaudreau had doubts about Goerner apart from anything he

heard from Saxon.

I understand your position and respectfully disagree.

[Nathan Say]

I still think Goerner's 1-arm deadlift is the biggest grip feat ever. He also did bigtime carries, like that one where he carried that 1444lb piano 50-something feet just to settle a bet (to me that sounds as if it were a spur-of-the-moment thing that he wouldn't have prepared for), I don't think Apollon could have done that. On the back of my Goerner the Mighty book there's a pic of him with the bar & barrels setup with the 4 guys sitting on top, over only one shoulder. He looks as if he could have walked with another one of those setups over the other shoulder 'without the least inconvenience.' :p When Hermann did one of his big deadlifts (790 or 830-can't remember) he looked at the crowd, smiled & laughed. He also did his 2-hands anyhow record (430 something right?) with kettleweights. I think that's the one Nick is talking about. Hermann pinch gripped, with no training 111lbs (clearly an impromptu feat Mueller writes). He snatched 60kg with one hand on the knurled part of the bar & the other hand on the 2" end section where the plates go so the bar was way off-balance, deadlifted 596 with only 2 fingers of each hand, beat all those armwrestlers in 1minute, tore 2 decks of cards + 6 extra with no practice, wrote his name on a chalkboard with a 100lb weight hanging off his thumb,  etc etc Apollon was strongER but I still think Goerner was strongEST. Mueller wrote that he had witnessed about 75% of Goerner's lifts & said that he was never pushed really hard. Whether he was still trying harder than Apollon I don't know...

[gazza]

Mac 1 and Nathan Say

I think it is something we will never no,depends on how much

we believe moellar and debonnets word,i personaly do, as i think that a lot of what was put down in ink,wasbecause these to biographers were in awe of what they had witnessed,

which rightly so they should have been.

i think that at the time goerner was the better deadlifter and

carrier and supporter of weights,and probably,if trained for could have equilled most or beaten Apollons lifts,but then i also think that Apollon could have done the same.