Theo Burrgraff 186.5kg/411lbs Vertical Bar Lift!

[David Horne]

This really is unbelievable. A list of lifts compiled by someone, who acts dictatorial, that's all it is. There is NO input into this from any governing body or anybody, it really is beyond belief!

[Mikael Siversson]

Mac clearly explained the difference but you missed the point. A super match is very exclusive. No one else can challenge the two competitors. As has been discussed extensively in the past, I feel that a minimum of five genuin competitors would be a minimum for records unless there is a very late cancellation. In this latter case, the remaining competitors should not be penalised. But, as I said, this has already been discussed on this board.

Mac: You have a point there, we didn't get all upset before the comp, we knew that it would be like this. But as you can see, aside from the plates not being calibrated, the difference between the AG and the Supermatch is pretty much nihil. There is no way of denying this. (he'll probably come up with sth anyway.)

[the swiss]

I agree with Mikael that conditions are slightly different than those of euros (no gripper before, shorter waiting, calibration, etc...), and understand why he's not putting Theo on the list right now.

I agree with everyone (Mikael included I think) that this is an incredible lift, and that Theo is most probably the best at vbar in the world right now.

I think it was also done under very strict conditions and lots of pressure (probably more that at the euros for instance)

Edited February 27, 2007 by the swiss

[David Horne]

There is no rules anywhere about the order of events. At the Champions we had the Pinch first and grippers last.

I also, and so does everyone really, believe that Theo's lift should not be on the list. We all knew that before as the plates were not calibrated. But the questioning is for the future.

[David Horne]

The worst thing about this, is there is no voting by the organisers or competitors on this subject. I don't care what the outcome would be, but surely voting has to be implemented. This is not democracy, it's a dictatorship!

[Mikael Siversson]

The order of events worry me less than does the exclusive nature of the super matches where no one else can challenge the selected two.

There is no rules anywhere about the order of events. At the Champions we had the Pinch first and grippers last.

I also, and so does everyone really, believe that Theo's lift should not be on the list. We all knew that before as the plates were not calibrated. But the questioning is for the future.

[Mikael Siversson]

You very much favoured dictatorship when we sorted out the events for the first European championship so don't put yourself on a pedistal.

The worst thing about this, is there is no voting by the organisers or competitors on this subject. I don't care what the outcome would be, but surely voting has to be implemented. This is not democracy, it's a dictatorship!

[David Horne]

So the selectiveness of Invitation only comp is the problem. But surely they have invitation only contests in many sports and if a WR happens it counts.

Mikael,

You are always the first to go personal, and talk bollox!

[Mikael Siversson]

What is missing in this discussion is the view of the main US organisers.

[David Horne]

Stuff it.

I'll put together a World Records list on my site.

We can vote on subjects.

Give me your ideas.

[Bob Lipinski]

The most important thing this sport needs is a cohesive set of rules. Preferably somewhere on the net so that they can be easily referenced. Once you can get agreement on a set of rules that are set for all to see on a website, discussions like this can easily be more focused or perhaps already answered.

Rules such as:

1. What defines a grip competition

2. ?Standard events for international competition

3. Criteria for records?- Does it need to be a standard competition, standard order of events, etc?

Most of this is already decided, hell if we can just throw what we agree on underneath "Internation Grip Contest Rules" on David's website, we'd have a base from which to add and subtract from.

[moser1972]

I have in mind that we had in the beginning of the EURO committee 3 kind of comps:

#1 EUROS

#2 NATIONALS

#3 LOCAL COMPS

I don’t see a real point against counting records in ALL (3) type of events when they are followed by the rules.

The VBar and 2HP rules we have are not so bad in my eyes; as I already said before; the idea with 2 wooden bars (5 cm high) is okay - one behind; one in front seems useful and make it easier to judge the lifts.

Calibrated weights are needed; also device calibration.

But I don’t see a problem with the order of events. Why not setting up a record in the vbar as the first event?????

Look to powerlifting champs. There are guys that squat 100K, bench 100K for "warmup" and to save their power for the Dlift. They lift then 400K to set a German record or so, they only come to set a new record. Squat and Bench is not important for them! They come for the DL record and save all energy for it.

Okay, when we have VBar as the 3rd event, no one can say a word when a guy come to the comp, close a 1.0 rated gripper and lift 30K in 2HP so that he is fresh for the 3rd event - VBar. It’s possible....

The main "problem" is the gripper rating and the steel rating for bending.

I am very happy that Arne and Martin will send over the Euro grippers over for the upcoming MGC.

But to have a World record list on grippers it’s maybe possible to calibrate more than only using the EURO grippers?!

My thoughts are to have more comp gripper, also in the states.

Isn’t it possible to use ONE device for calibration?

I think there is a good device from Greg Amidon.

When all major organisers (countries) can calibrate his own "competition grippers" with this device than all looks fine.

I also saw that Eric have a calibration device in his gallery - maybe that is an good option to calibrate steel bars.

Make it easier to use common nails we have here....also for not already calibrated bars etc.

Only my 2 cents.....and only thoughts

All the best

Thorsten

[mobsterone]

The order of events worry me less than does the exclusive nature of the super matches where no one else can challenge the selected two.

There is no rules anywhere about the order of events. At the Champions we had the Pinch first and grippers last.

I also, and so does everyone really, believe that Theo's lift should not be on the list. We all knew that before as the plates were not calibrated. But the questioning is for the future.

Hence it being a supermatch.

Regarding order of events. So far the LGC and a few other events have followed a standard format on the agreed lifts. First is grippers (I've passed comment on how little a difference that made to me and Theo by having them at the end). Second is 2HP and third V-bar. It might be argued that a more random approach or a rotating of the standard three would throw up a better view of who is good at what when the sequence of events are changed. This could be chosen from a hat on the day. We could know and train for the lifts prior to an event then they could be selected at random. Once it was seen that little or no difference existed we could stick with the ol order .

[vikingpower]

A super match is very exclusive. No one else can challenge the two competitors.

And you say a world record lift does not count if their is less than 5 people competing!!!

In all respect, that is without doubt the most ridiculous statement I have ever read.

A record set under official scrutiny is a record. Damn I've seen record attempts in all mannor of fields where just one man as attempted to break an existing world record.

Look at guiness records as just one example.

As long as the rules of the lift are in place and under official scrutiny it's a record.

David I certainly understand your frustration.

Edited February 27, 2007 by vikingpower

[pty]

Stuff it.

I'll put together a World Records list on my site.

We can vote on subjects.

Give me your ideas.

Excellent idea.

[jimwylie1]

It might be argued that a more random approach or a rotating of the standard three would throw up a better view of who is good at what when the sequence of events are changed. This could be chosen from a hat on the day. We could know and train for the lifts prior to an event then they could be selected at random. Once it was seen that little or no difference existed we could stick with the ol order .

I personally like to know the sequence of events before I get to the competition. That way I can train the lifts in the correct order and understand what impact performing the lifts in a specified sequence will have on numbers. A competition doesn't seem like a good place to perform an experiement from my perspective, as a competitor.

[moser1972]

It might be argued that a more random approach or a rotating of the standard three would throw up a better view of who is good at what when the sequence of events are changed. This could be chosen from a hat on the day. We could know and train for the lifts prior to an event then they could be selected at random. Once it was seen that little or no difference existed we could stick with the ol order .

I personally like to know the sequence of events before I get to the competition. That way I can train the lifts in the correct order and understand what impact performing the lifts in a specified sequence will have on numbers. A competition doesn't seem like a good place to perform an experiement from my perspective, as a competitor.

Thats correct Jim!

All starters must KNOW BEFORE a contest in which order the events are to prepare correct!!!

But dont count a lift as a record because the event was the 2nd and not the 3rd event is not the best idea.

[mobsterone]

I too like to know the sequence (indeed the more info the better I like it) but the idea would be test and hopefully throw out the suggestion that not having grippers and 2HP before a V-bar event somehow negated the idea of it, all other things being equal, a record. Just an idea mind.

Edited February 27, 2007 by mobsterone

[1stCoC]

All very interesting! Who makes the rules on the rules?.....hmmm on and on. I for one like things to be as equal as possible to give everyone a "fair" shot and most of all compete or not for the love of grip. The contest at my birthday party was attended by hundreds, wonderfully run by Diesel Crew and supporters and even though it was a personal "pain" lugging my beloved York plates to the post office to be calibrated and certified the respect given to the possibility of a world mark being set was well worth it. I was there to share a wonderful moment in my life but in retrospect glad the "bases were covered" in protocol so the worthy lifters marks are/were recognised. Bickering within our sport only lengthens the acceptance process when viewed along with other sporting endevours. Lets give credit where its due,do it right, and enjoy our worldwide grip brotherhood.RS

[CMunger]

The important factors for world record certification should be:

1) Known/calibrated weights

2) Standardized equipment

3) Proper officiating

Order can affect, but is irrelevant. Did Carl Lewis do long jump before, or after the 100m? When was the relay? Who freaking cares. It doesn't matter, and as the examples have shown, it's easy to circumvent.

Number of competors? I fail to see how the number of competitors would have any bearing whatsoever on the performances. If anything, fewer competitors would mean less rest between events, which would make accumulated fatigue a larger issue.