burkhardmacht Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 So I see the problem of D.Hurzeler and T.Burggraaf who will perhaps compete alone if no foreign competitors will join the comp. But You guys should take this as a motivation to promote the sport more and more! How did you come up with this? Nor Swiss (as far as i know not in this thread) nor I, said it would be a problem. I just said Korte would not allow it. No problem at all Theo! But it would be nice to see the sport growing in all countries - in the Swiss and Holland too! That would be cool! BTW I would have no problem to compete as a guest and not get into the final rankings - that would not exclude the fun factor (for me). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Talked to Hermann on the phone. Chad is very welcome to come and attend the competition. He won't be placed inside the final results though. Exactly the same like Theos visit at the germans was handled. Pretty lame. If he breaks any records and they don't count because he's not European and thus can't compete.....what a huge step in the wrong direction for our sport. I hope none of the American promoters adopt this kind of nonsense in regards to foreign competitors. It's lame if it was the case. It isn't and it wasn't the issue. The issue was allowing someone from outside to compete in a National and International competition and have them place - even though they'd not be from that country or continent. It is an issue and the original issue, unless I've misinterpreted the very 1st post of the thread. Franky and Burkhard are saying it hasn't been decided yet and that it wouldn't be decided by the contest promoters anyway. This gives the contest promoters an easy out and makes the powers that be, the badguys in the case that a guest competitor breaks a record but doesn't have it counted due to guest status. Lame either way if your citizenship prevents you from breaking a record, blame it on whomever you like. You're making it sound like Chad's records WOULD count if he broke some, by saying it's not an issue. Mikael is saying that you can't break records if you're not part of the competition and Gamidon brings up the point that you'd be more apt to take huge attempts if you had no hopes of winning the contest. I agree but then again you could do that in any contest, just depends on if a WR is more important than a contest win, espec ially if someone has a weak event or two but is a stud at a certain event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I tell you why it's not an issue. Using Chad as an example plus knowing what was decided before and having a fuller understanding: 1) Chad can compete - but as a guest like Dutch. 2) He cannot place - this has been decided - so cannot be European champion. 3) Because he is competing his records, if he sets any will stand. There was a thread on this when most of the main promoters discussed in an open forum this very subject. Mikael said only records set in competition should be recognised - that was agreed on. As it stands this encourages competition but keeps national etc competitions as they ought to be - IMO. What you said about WR's etc is true and more so of a guest. However, I would suggest that while a WR is nice and I have lifted in the past in that way, it is better as an athlete to compete as though you wanted to win. Dutch did this and has done so twice. He lifted more overall and won more events without placing - shows guts. That Chad may travel, as I did, a great distance to compete, do well and not place is a great thing. Powerlifting has had guest lifters before and it was a way of getting huge numbers recorded and have them refereed by proper judges to an agreed standard but without winning a title. Other sports do the same all the time. It will be obvious to competitors, judges and the watching crowd if someone is outstanding regardless if they compete or not. Lastly why should Chad be treated differently from the Dutch? Is Chad only gonna come if he can take home a medal or cup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burkhardmacht Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Is Chad only gonna come if he can take home a medal or cup? No, he'll come - the result of this discussion doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuTCH Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 (edited) So I see the problem of D.Hurzeler and T.Burggraaf who will perhaps compete alone if no foreign competitors will join the comp. But You guys should take this as a motivation to promote the sport more and more! How did you come up with this? Nor Swiss (as far as i know not in this thread) nor I, said it would be a problem. I just said Korte would not allow it. No problem at all Theo! But it would be nice to see the sport growing in all countries - in the Swiss and Holland too! That would be cool! BTW I would have no problem to compete as a guest and not get into the final rankings - that would not exclude the fun factor (for me). I get the point, as from previous posts that you want to see more comps etc. But it isn't really attractive to have a grip contest with a total of 3 competitors from holland. I know that it happened in the AG, and i know it's possible. But, and i don't want to get too cocky here, having much more experience etc. the outcome of a Holland grip contest is pretty much set. Too me that is just not appealing if there is no 'real' competition. Things as grip sport don't 'live' as in other countries, and believe me, organizing a contest won't make much of a difference whatsoever. Bit off, i know. Edited March 1, 2006 by DuTCH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too Tall Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Lastly why should Chad be treated differently from the Dutch? Is Chad only gonna come if he can take home a medal or cup? I will compete, no matter what is settled, or not settled in this thread. I love competition...this is what drives me. I also really want to know for myself where I stack up against some of the best in the world in grip. This may be my only opportunity to see and compete against these men. These same men may or may not come to PA for Worlds...who knows. I am happy to compete as a guest and I intend on having a GREAT time hanging out with everyone there. I did not intend to cause such an uproar...but hopefully we can all reach a happy medium of some sort. Everyone train hard and lets keep this sport moving forward Chad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubthewonderscot Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 (edited) I'm a little confused, which for my feelble mind, is no difficult task. Let me try to see if I've got this right. 1. Some don't want "outsiders" to place in National Events. Is this is because A. They don't want the national title to be held by someone from another country? B. They don't want to be pushed down the ladder when it comes to going to the Worlds? C. We are all so frickin xenophobic that we turn on even our friends here on the gripboard because they are a little different. Let me see if I can make some sense out of this, and if my logic is flawed, please accept my apology. In the case of argument A, this happens in many sports, who cares. Bennedict Magnuson competes in Finland, sets the world record for the deadlift. Who cares. The strongest deadlifter on the planet set the world record, who cares where he's from? It's stinking Geography. Imaginary lines on a piece of paper, and we get all bent out of shape about them, often to the point of war. We're all lifting brothers, I'm sure Eric Milfeld would welcome all to the Ft.Worth Show of Hands. I'd be honored to compete against Dutch, Moster, 2strong, Arne, Michael, whoever. In the case of argument B, Ok, I can kinda understand this one, but it too is flawed. If they beat you, and you are unable to defeat them at your National contest, you stand a good chance of being unable to beat them at the Worlds. Again, the strongest hands win, who cares what contest? Argument C. This is the saddest of them all. In truth, most of us if we all lived in the same area, would get along fine, and enjoy lifting together. Can you imagine the fun of a gym full of gripsters 200+ strong, every week? Contests everyday. What would we do to seperate ourselves then? Smoking and non-smoking? lol. We are all human, we love to grip, and I'm honored to share this board with you guys. I hate it that we are seperated by so many miles, and thus many will never meet each other. To me, if someone were to put forth the financial burden and the commitment to be at a contest here in Texas from say Europe, or Australia, or Asia, I would be so honored that they thought enough of the Grip game, and by extension of the competition and it's competitors, that I would most certainly welcome them to the competition. I say open for all. And may the best man win. Guests? Thats what I have over for dinner. Edited March 1, 2006 by dubthewonderscot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Very clear and concise post Mobster, thank you. I appologize to the Germans if my previous post offended them as I was apparently confused. Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Lastly why should Chad be treated differently from the Dutch? Is Chad only gonna come if he can take home a medal or cup?I will compete, no matter what is settled, or not settled in this thread. I love competition...this is what drives me. I also really want to know for myself where I stack up against some of the best in the world in grip. This may be my only opportunity to see and compete against these men. These same men may or may not come to PA for Worlds...who knows. I am happy to compete as a guest and I intend on having a GREAT time hanging out with everyone there. I did not intend to cause such an uproar...but hopefully we can all reach a happy medium of some sort. Everyone train hard and lets keep this sport moving forward Chad As I knew you would - good on you. I'm a little confused, which for my feelble mind, is no difficult task.Let me try to see if I've got this right. 1. Some don't want "outsiders" to place in National Events. Is this is because A. They don't want the national title to be held by someone from another country? B. They don't want to be pushed down the ladder when it comes to going to the Worlds? C. We are all so frickin xenophobic that we turn on even our friends here on the gripboard because they are a little different. Let me see if I can make some sense out of this, and if my logic is flawed, please accept my apology. In the case of argument A, this happens in many sports, who cares. Bennedict Magnuson competes in Finland, sets the world record for the deadlift. Who cares. The strongest deadlifter on the planet set the world record, who cares where he's from? It's stinking Geography. Imaginary lines on a piece of paper, and we get all bent out of shape about them, often to the point of war. We're all lifting brothers, I'm sure Eric Milfeld would welcome all to the Ft.Worth Show of Hands. I'd be honored to compete against Dutch, Moster, 2strong, Arne, Michael, whoever. In the case of argument B, Ok, I can kinda understand this one, but it too is flawed. If they beat you, and you are unable to defeat them at your National contest, you stand a good chance of being unable to beat them at the Worlds. Again, the strongest hands win, who cares what contest? Argument C. This is the saddest of them all. In truth, most of us if we all lived in the same area, would get along fine, and enjoy lifting together. Can you imagine the fun of a gym full of gripsters 200+ strong, every week? Contests everyday. What would we do to seperate ourselves then? Smoking and non-smoking? lol. We are all human, we love to grip, and I'm honored to share this board with you guys. I hate it that we are seperated by so many miles, and thus many will never meet each other. To me, if someone were to put forth the financial burden and the commitment to be at a contest here in Texas from say Europe, or Australia, or Asia, I would be so honored that they thought enough of the Grip game, and by extension of the competition and it's competitors, that I would most certainly welcome them to the competition. I say open for all. And may the best man win. Guests? Thats what I have over for dinner. What we eating? I agree with you about the 200 strong grip nuts all cranking out reps on crazy ass poundages (I'd like to be there showing off myself) but yes people would and will continue to look for the defining difference. Magnus is a bad example in that he took the right piss with his squat and bench press (130-kilos on both - I bench more than that) but a good example in that he came to do one lift but didn't win the event - because of the piss poor totals and the piss poor other lifts. But, if you accept an event be called a national championships - let's use the British as an example - how does someone who is not BRITISH win? It's quite simple, if zenophobic, the people for who the competition would be qualified MUST come from the country or area. An open local event like the Ft Worth example doesn't apply. If the Ft Worth example was not an open competition then similar rules should apply. Bottom line is it's up to the promoter and those other promoters agreed this a while back. Argument B is best and is why I suggested qualifying poundages and not to have too many open national events. Else you could, as you say and I suggested earlier, come to the British, get your ass handed to you and then compete in the worlds and get it handed to you again - or vice versa - you could come to the British, beat everyone there by a margin - I could qualify and still stand no chance of coming close to what you did regardless of being national champ (this already happens). I might be national champ in my country and come last. However, what happens if you came to the British, competed in what could be an open event, then you'd represent Britain in the World Championships? Nah - who then? What if three came from outside and took the 1st-2nd-3rd place spots - would we send a 4th place competitor? Taken to that extreme no event is a nationals, no event a Europeans and no event a Worlds. Just in name only. I am holding the British. It is not an open competition but if YOU wish to compete as a guest come and join in. I'll cook you dinner and we can (hopefully) watch 20 or so grip nuts do their thing. If you set a record it will stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamidon Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 But, if you accept an event be called a national championships - let's use the British as an example - how does someone who is not BRITISH win? I think you summed it up well, this isnt about competition, it is about limiting the field so people don't lose. Are there really enough people competing or even enough competitions to have national only events? Are there so many people traveling that this is such an issue? How many british competitions were there in 2005 that were open to all comers? How many will their be this year? Is Theo automatically the Dutch Champion? If I move to Guam am I the Guamanien champ? (BTW Guamanien sounds funny to me so I threw this in ) The British Champion can still be the highest placed Brit. What a hollow title he will hold if he refused any outside competion for fear of losing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 The British Grip Champs has always been Open. We've had competitors from Canada, U.S. and Sweden. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubthewonderscot Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 (edited) I am officially the strongest grip in my house....until Eric Milfeld comes over. lol. Just sounds goofy to me. I don't care where someone's from. The strongest hands win. If you want to have a British winner, get someone to be stronger, recruit more freaks from other strength sports. And the victory would be empty. If I had a contest and invited everyone in my home town...and say, anyone of the top guys here on the board(I won't name them for fear of leaving someone out.) came to compete as a guest, and that person was a guest lifter doubled my totals. Would you guys really respect my "win"? I sure wouldn't. I'm a pansy compared to you guys. Edited March 1, 2006 by dubthewonderscot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 The British Grip Champs has always been Open. We've had competitors from Canada, U.S. and Sweden.David Has. Did you or did you not discuss some of the rules and regs you and other promoters would like to see to get a standardization? I'm also pretty sure that the idea of outside competitors attending the 2004 event took place and (I may be wrong) no outside Britain competitors entered and if they did they didn't place. I think the Swedish decided not to attend as they were holding the European. This also applies to 2005 which wasn't promoted by yourself. Andy C didn't say one way or another if he thought of it as an open event. But we're discussing the past. The question, regardless of what has taken place, is what happens next? More, if, as I asked before, the title of these events is to be regarded as a national, continental and world class event surely having all and sundry - no matter how good, be included in the possible podium finish then the events are not national competitions, not continental and not world class. They are just competitions with big sounding titles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I am officially the strongest grip in my house....until Eric Milfeld comes over. lol.Just sounds goofy to me. I don't care where someone's from. The strongest hands win. If you want to have a British winner, get someone to be stronger, recruit more freaks from other strength sports. And the victory would be empty. If I had a contest and invited everyone in my home town...and say, anyone of the top guys here on the board(I won't name them for fear of leaving someone out.) came to compete as a guest, and that person was a guest lifter doubled my totals. Would you guys really respect my "win"? I sure wouldn't. I'm a pansy compared to you guys. All true. But not fair. Gamidon - You make a good point that if bigger stronger guys, from the field of athletes that compete in WSM for example were to compete the sport would be different. It would. But they don't. Nor does the way it works now encourage more of the members of this site to compete. There are several 1000 members here with only a small active group and from that group and just a few more non-members do we have that 200 competitve athletes: world-wide. Do you think making all of the competitions 'open' would somehow get more to compete? I don't. Gyms the world over are full of those that talk about it but never do - so is the gripboard (as per many such sites). How can the sport be encouraged to grow? How can we get more - not just a handful but serious numbers - to compete? Is 'open' the way forward. I have some ideas I'd like to hear others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted March 2, 2006 Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 Just like to clarify my position in all this confusion. I will personally not recognise records set by "guest" lifters. They have to be part of the competition, not just lifting on the same occasion but not included in the total. The record lists I am keeping are for competitors, not guest lifters. Someone else can of course keep whatever list they wish and recognise whatever records they feel like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamidon Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 Gamidon - You make a good point that if bigger stronger guys, from the field of athletes that compete in WSM for example were to compete the sport would be different. It would. But they don't. Nor does the way it works now encourage more of the members of this site to compete. There are several 1000 members here with only a small active group and from that group and just a few more non-members do we have that 200 competitve athletes: world-wide. Do you think making all of the competitions 'open' would somehow get more to compete? I don't. Gyms the world over are full of those that talk about it but never do - so is the gripboard (as per many such sites). How can the sport be encouraged to grow? How can we get more - not just a handful but serious numbers - to compete? Is 'open' the way forward. I have some ideas I'd like to hear others. Well my whole point to this thread is only that the field is pretty small. Lets not exclude people. Excluding people isn't a way to make it bigger either. When you came over and competed in the GGC I felt that was a very good thing for the sport. If they had told you that you could compete but only as a guest, not get recognized for your placing and receive no trophys, awards or anything would you have felt like they were treating you fairly? I think letting you compete is what this is all about. I hope you attend future US based competitons as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted March 2, 2006 Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 I think it is sad that the IG is now closed to outsiders. I am disappointed by the stubborn stance of the Germans on this issue. It will backfire. I am sure my fellow Australians would welcome Chad with open arms if he decided to compete Down Under. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted March 2, 2006 Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 I could use myself as an example to demonstrate how absurd it is to only allow citizens to compete in the main, yearly competition in a country. I live in Perth and had to spend 4-5 hours on a plane to get to Sydney. If the Australian championship excluded non-Australian citizens then I would basically not compete at all, period. It is naive to believe that people would rush in from all the territories to attend a second, open competition just to let me and Nick compete officially. They would go for the open competition and the national championship would quietly die out. Once again, the sport of grip is too small for us to exclude non-citizens to compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted March 2, 2006 Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 (edited) I am convinced that the sport of grip would grow at a faster pace if all competitions are open. With the right promotion I think an "European Open" could attract first class competitors from the US and elsewhere. Ask yourself, do I want to go up against fairly strong Germans or do I want to go head to head against the likes of Jedd, Chad, Tommy, Clay etc. along with the best Europeans. The Germans are taking a risk, especially with the big US competition coming up shortly afterwards. You may have to resort to what the Swedes had to do by adding a disproportionally large number of home grown competitors of sub-standard to make up the numbers. Some of the best Europeans will have to decide if they want to go to the Europeans and win a hollow title (by possibly being outlifted by a "guest") or if they want to take on the best Americans in an epic battle. Edited March 2, 2006 by Mikael Siversson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted March 2, 2006 Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 No one can regard themselves as no 1 in the World in grip without kidding themselves, unless they can also win outside of their home country/continent so I have no doubt that we would see a whole range of top class Americans compete in an open European Championship in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gripmaniac Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 This is probably going to sound a little stupid but. . . . Why not have two titles up for grabs – an Open title and a “European Champion” title? If Chad is invited to compete and he comes 1st overall then he's awarded the title of European Open Champion and he get's a trophy. For the sake of illustrating my example Theo comes 2nd Overall - but as he's the highest placed European he is crowned European Champion (and he get’s a trophy). Sounds simple to me. If Theo had come first overall (and assuming there are foreign competitors in the field) then he gets the two titles. This scenario could be applied to US and British Championships if they receive enough interest from foreigners wishing to compete. Of course, this then leads into the subject of qualifying standards and participation rights for foreign competitors. These could be either determined by the promoter or agreed upon by the majority of major contest organisers. One thing that should definitely be kept in mind is not allowing foreign competitors to compete ahead of qualified “locals” who would otherwise miss out due to lack of available places. I honestly think our sport would be going in the wrong direction by not allowing a comp participant (who has made the time and effort to travel a great distance) the opportunity to actually “win”. Where is the incentive if you’re merely a “guest” lifter? There’ll only be a few events and thus minimal opportunities to break records. Sure competing is fun . . . . but at the end of the day don’t we all want to do the best we can and be recognised if we’re the best on the day??? This is an interesting topic – keep the discussion going. I for one am really interested in others opinions - whether they're competitors or otherwise. Dave Btw: I'd be happy to compete against anyone of an acceptable competition standard from anywhere on the planet in any grip comp anywhere in Australia. Bring ’em on I say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burkhardmacht Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 I am disappointed by the stubborn stance of the Germans on this issue. It will backfire. I'm not really sure who is stubborn here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 In tennis the British Champs is Wimbledon and hasn't been won by a brit for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 I could use myself as an example to demonstrate how absurd it is to only allow citizens to compete in the main, yearly competition in a country.I live in Perth and had to spend 4-5 hours on a plane to get to Sydney. If the Australian championship excluded non-Australian citizens then I would basically not compete at all, period. It is naive to believe that people would rush in from all the territories to attend a second, open competition just to let me and Nick compete officially. They would go for the open competition and the national championship would quietly die out. Once again, the sport of grip is too small for us to exclude non-citizens to compete. BS: It's an open event now and 5 of you competed. So much for that plan and for being naive. Plus Australia, like America, has problems with geography - it's very big and in Auz - mostly empty. Even at last years Brits we had more turn up if not to compete. I am disappointed by the stubborn stance of the Germans on this issue. It will backfire. I'm not really sure who is stubborn here. He wants it open, he argues for it to be open, it's not open. Oh dear... In tennis the British Champs is Wimbledon and hasn't been won by a brit for a long time. Where as the British Iron Grip championships have been - many, many times. And that's the British Tennis OPEN not British championships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 I think as the sport grows bigger the need for some kind of global comitee who get to chat every now and again about upcoming matters is a must. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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