Mikael Siversson Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 (edited) It seems that Chad Woodall is competing as a guest in this years European Championship. For record purposes (i.e., pinch and vbar) this is not a valid option in my oppinion. This years (and all previous) Australian championship was an open competition. It was won by an Englishman and a Swede came in second. The largest North American grip competition is the Global Grip Challenge, widely regarded as a US national championship. This is however also an open championship and European competitors are encouraged to compete in full. Is not the grip sport too small to exclude overseas competitors to compete on equal terms? I just can't see the point at this stage to allow Americans in the European Championship to compete merely as guests. Highly qualified individuals should be encouraged to come over and add prestige to the competition. My suggestion is to make the Europeans an open competition by allowing one or two non-Europeans to participate (a limit is required if we adhere to a maximum of 12 competitors) in full with no strings attached (i.e., "guest"). Edited March 1, 2006 by Mikael Siversson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Hell, the more the better. You are right, our sport is too small at this point to be closing things off too much. But Mikael, one thing- You and Nick have both lived in Australia a decent amount of time. I know Nick has been there a while. Hell, either way is fine with me. You could say he won the event, but he is not the "European Champion". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 My understanding was that the following had to be in place for a record to count/be broken Officially recognized competition Top level competitors Qualified judges Calibrated weights standard/official implements Whether they call him a guest or an official competitor, if he competes and breaks records, they should count. Just because he's not competing as an "official competitor"on paper doesn't mean he's not literally competing and all of the other requirements are in place. I don't think Chad should be able to take a Europeans place at World's because I'm sure he'll already be representing the US but for records purposes I can't believe the term, "guest" would keep him out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 (edited) Well in my mind he is either competing in the competition with no strings attached or he is not. How can you set records in competition if you are not part of the competition? Being a "guest lifter' usually implies that you are performing lifts but that you are not included in the main competition. I did not imply that he would take Europeans places at a World Championship. We had an odd situation not too long ago when Florian was hailed as champion inspite of having being beaten by the Dutch, who competed as a "guest". What is the point of allowing overseas "guests"? Outlifting the "champion"? Seems odd to me. Much better to keep it as an open championship. I would hate to win a championship only to have my title undermined by a stronger "guest". Anyway, this is just my oppinion. Edited March 1, 2006 by Mikael Siversson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Well in my mind he is either competing in the competition with no strings attached or he is not.How can you set records in competition if you are not part of the competition? Being a "guest lifter' usually implies that you are performing lifts but that you are not included in the main competition. I did not imply that he would take Europeans places at a World Championship. We had an odd situation not too long ago when Florian was hailed as champion inspite of having being beaten by the Dutch, who competed as a "guest". What is the point of allowing overseas "guests"? Outlifting the "champion"? Seems odd to me. Much better to keep it as an open championship. I would hate to win a championship only to have my title undermined by a stronger "guest". Anyway, this is just my oppinion. He's competing in the competition, he's just competing as a "guest". I agree with you on the whole guest thing though, what is the point? Love the vbar vids btw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 Love the vbar vids btw Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 If we follow a sport such as tennis then we should allow our 'majors' to be open, then he can compete as a competitor. I suppose the majors right now would be British open, Swedish open, U.S. open, Australian open. In fact quite similar to tennis already. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick McKinless Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 David, That makes a lot of sense and actually makes each event far more attractive. I think with that kind of structure in place we could then aim to get more sponsorship and money for events. This way it would be possible to help overseas competitors compete in International competitions and not just pay their way like Steve Gardener, Steve McGranahan, Mikael Siversson and a few others have done in the past. I for one want to compete against the VERY BEST in the world, whoever they are. Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too Tall Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 First off...I have always wanted to compete in an international competition...because I know that this may be the only chance that I have to compete against some of the very best international competitors in the World. I have talked with David in the past and Flo and I have even bounced ideas off of Smitty to get their thoughts about competing in international comps. I know that the Euros have produce some great champions in the past and it is well attended...So I chose this one to give a go at. Do not get me wrong...I would love for this to be an open comp...but if it is not then I am still going to give 100% and have tons of fun hanging out with my friends And it would be cool if I was lucky enough to break a record that day to be recognized for it maybe with an astrick * or something. I am looking forward to this trip and to meeting all these wonderful and strong men in grip See everyone in August. Chad Woodall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 The question is rather if there is anyone who does not want the European to be an open competition. I doubt the Germans are going to start an argument if Horne, David Hurzeler, Arne Persson and other European organisers want it to be an open contest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 The Europeans can be anything it wants to be providing it is NOT a qualifier for a world championships in and of itself. You need to be a top three placer in a National competition. However, the sport is still small so we may need, as per my other post on this subject, a qualifying poundage. For example if the World Championships in 2006 is what was the GGC we would need a US national championships. Will there be one? If not then from the US based competitions we need to select a few individuals - I say 6 - who can be selected to represent the USA in the worlds. From Europe we have Germans, French, Swedish and Swiss competitions. We can also select one or two others (the Dutch for example) who have performed at a high enough standard over several events. The same for Australia. What the Europeans might be good for is deciding who else to send. The bottom line is money. Can all who might qualify and or be selected afford to go and compete. Is that group big eneough to put on a half decent competition (I say 12 competitors seems about right). I'd like to see the champ from each of the European countries go to the worlds with a few US competitiors allowed to compete. That said, providing we can settle on what it means I'd be cool with Chad coming to Europe, at some expense on his part, to have a go. Even if he won his win wouldn't count towards a European and or world qualification and of itself. If his numbers were high enough across the board they could count in general competition terms, towards a place in the Worlds. Are Chads lifts high enough that he would do well? If he is allowed who else could compete from the European competitions that didn't qualify and so on. Can ayone else lift as a guest without being included in the prize giving etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 If he wins an open European championship then he is the champion of that competition. This has nothing to do with who Europe is going to send to a World Championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Who's decision is that and how was it arrived at? You ask if it should be an open competition - how will that decision be arrived at? If that has been decided then it is an open event and that will negate the need for the original question. How will the decision on who goes be made? Will it be by the promoter (German this year)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 If he wins an open European championship then he is the champion of that competition. This has nothing to do with who Europe is going to send to a World Championship. Baring in mind my own comments regarding the Dutch's performance at the German event his year I think having a guest as a champ is wrong if the competition is to give the 'European Championships' title any meaning at all. As per my earlier post there are a bunch of guys who can afford to compete who do not because they never qualified. And there's a bunch who qualified who cannot afford to compete. Neither of this applies to Chad. He can afford to - or else he wouldn't be coming - but doesn't represent any European country nor did he qualify. The event, so named, will not be a European Championships if he competes and more so if he is allowed to win. If it is to become an open competition it will need renaming. Something like the 'European Open Grip competition'. If it does become an open event then there is no need to qualify in any way by winning a national competition in a European country. So 'The Swiss' need not qualify, David Horne need not, Frankie need not and so on. Just those that can afford to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 Who's decision is that and how was it arrived at?Not sure what you mean by that. If you win a competition then you are the champion of that competition. Sounds pretty simple to me. If that has been decided then it is an open event and that will negate the need for the original question. Well I suppose we have to see what the Germans think about it. How will the decision on who goes be made? Good question. Having a European Championship so close to a World Championship is not ideal. In the future I think a World Championship needs to be advertised (with fixed events) a year in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 Baring in mind my own comments regarding the Dutch's performance at the German event his year I think having a guest as a champ is wrong if the competition is to give the 'European Championships' title any meaning at all. It is pretty meaningless receiving the title of European Champion if you got beaten by a "guest". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Who's decision is that and how was it arrived at? Not sure what you mean by that. If you win a competition then you are the champion of that competition. Sounds pretty simple to me. If that has been decided then it is an open event and that will negate the need for the original question. Well I suppose we have to see what the Germans think about it. How will the decision on who goes be made? Good question. Having a European Championship so close to a World Championship is not ideal. In the future I think a World Championship needs to be advertised (with fixed events) a year in advance. Cheers and one which affects my decision to compete, if at all, in the Europeans. As per my questions and responses in a similar post previously I would prefer NOT to comepete in the Europeans if I am able to compete in the Worlds by qualifying at the British. I'd love to meet and greet the German guys as they are a great bunch but my competitive spirit is stronger. Based on my actually doing the British, European and GGC in 2004 it was less than ideal. More so the last 2 events as they were just 6 weeks or so apart. I'd like to see 8-10 weeks (more so 10). That way I can rest a week and train in a macro-cycle for 8-9. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 (edited) When we had the European Championship in Sweden we had to throw in people who had hardly seen a gripper to make up the numbers. The sport of grip is too small to start excluding first class overseas competitors in my oppinion. The Open European Championship sounds fine by me. Imagine a strict Australian Championship without me and Nick. That would be three people. Edited March 1, 2006 by Mikael Siversson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Baring in mind my own comments regarding the Dutch's performance at the German event his year I think having a guest as a champ is wrong if the competition is to give the 'European Championships' title any meaning at all. It is pretty meaningless receiving the title of European Champion if you got beaten by a "guest". Yes. Agreed. So if it becomes an 'open' event it'll need renaming. Or Chad and or other guests don't compete. They can still lift. Guest lifters do this all the time. Plus, given the uproar, does this mean the Dutch guest lifted but didn't compete? I'd say so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 When we had the European Championship in Sweden we had to throw in people who hade hardly seen a gripper to make up the numbers. The sport of grip is too small to start excluding first class overseas competitors in my opinion.The Open European Championship sounds fine by me. Imagine a strict Australian Championship without me and Nick. That would be three people. True. But it doesn't apply to other countries. Switzerland is smaller in number and gets more than that, Germany does ok, France is/was on par with Switzerland and the US and Britain have no problem. Plus no one from Australia will be allowed to compete in a proper European competition - so it's not a good example. Will anyone from Auz be at the worlds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 ....and Britain have no problem. Hmm, how many were you last time? Not very many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuTCH Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 (edited) Baring in mind my own comments regarding the Dutch's performance at the German event his year I think having a guest as a champ is wrong if the competition is to give the 'European Championships' title any meaning at all. It is pretty meaningless receiving the title of European Champion if you got beaten by a "guest". Yes. Agreed. So if it becomes an 'open' event it'll need renaming. Or Chad and or other guests don't compete. They can still lift. Guest lifters do this all the time. Plus, given the uproar, does this mean the Dutch guest lifted but didn't compete? I'd say so. I lifted, and didn't really compete.. I was outside of competition. But what got mixed up was, that some were not aware of this fact. There were a lot of mixed feelings involved i rather not discuss again. It can however be, a lesson learned as to new competitions that will be held. Isn't the british grip championship also open to other competitors? Isn't the swiss grip comp also open to win to foreigners? So what's in a name? However, this brings into conflict that someone from overseas snatches away a title from euro, wich gives little meaning to the actual title.. Hmm, a toughy... I don't really see a problem except for the fact the Chad can do some real damage at the euro.. If he can actually compete, i don't really know. I think that is up to the guys that are currently holding and organizing the event this year. Burkhard and Korte. If Korte learned from previous experience, i think chad will be a guest.. Edited March 1, 2006 by DuTCH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 ....and Britain have no problem. Hmm, how many were you last time? Not very many. All British though eh? Not Three Brits and two others. Baring in mind my own comments regarding the Dutch's performance at the German event his year I think having a guest as a champ is wrong if the competition is to give the 'European Championships' title any meaning at all. It is pretty meaningless receiving the title of European Champion if you got beaten by a "guest". Yes. Agreed. So if it becomes an 'open' event it'll need renaming. Or Chad and or other guests don't compete. They can still lift. Guest lifters do this all the time. Plus, given the uproar, does this mean the Dutch guest lifted but didn't compete? I'd say so. I lifted, and didn't really compete.. I was outside of competition. But what got mixed up was, that some were not aware of this fact. There were a lot of mixed feelings involved i rather not discuss again. It can however be, a lesson learned as to new competitions that will be held. Isn't the british grip championship also open to other competitors? Isn't the swiss grip comp also open to win to foreigners? So what's in a name? However, this brings into conflict that someone from overseas snatches away a title from euro, wich gives little meaning to the actual title.. Hmm, a toughy... I don't really see a problem except for the fact the Chad can do some real damage at the euro.. If he can actually compete, i don't really know. I think that is up to the guys that are currently holding and organizing the event this year. Burkhard and Korte. If Korte learned from previous experience, i think chad will be a guest.. Earlier competitions only - ie: When Arne and Kalle competed. Other versions did NOT have other countries competing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 If Korte learned from previous experience, i think chad will be a guest.. Let's hope not. The Americans let us Europeans compete in their top competitions with no strings attached and yet you are suggesting that we (I am including myself as European) should put ourselves on a pedistal of purity and let our fellow brothers in America spend hard earned money to come to Europe and add some exotic, but unofficial flavour to the competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Mikeal you're choosing to ignore the simple fact that the GGC 2004 (the only event for which your comment applies) was not a national, international or world class event. Nor did they claim it to be. The European was a international event. Right now you are trying to change that so that Chad, good strong guy that he is, can compete. I am the only person to whom the GGC 2004 comment can apply so try and be direct. You asked for input yet, because the European was - was mind - partly your baby you are arguing against any that disagree. You are now involved in the Australian and like anyone involved in grip still have some input. However, you do not promote the European and this year it's not even in Sweden. Now either you want input or you've made up your mind. It doesn't matter too much as you aren't gonna be allowed to decide. That'll be up to the promoter. If you think it ought to be an open event just so Chad can compete - say so. If you want the sport to move forward and have rules and regulations and something akin to recognition for lifts etc realise, small events or otherwise, that unless we have guests, byes etc the idea of calling any event a national, international or world class event becomes null and void. Back to the GGC 2004 - I came 4th out of 18 (I think). I'll presume that even you can agree that meant I was of a good enough standard to compete (one of my suggestions to help with open competitions is being of a standard). That and I already had an invite from Smitty to compete in both the 2005 and the upcoming 2006 event. That meant I don't have to do sweet fanny adams this year if I so chose. I could just have turned up and done one competition. I would, however, prefer to qualify thus giving grip and grip competitions something akin to a proper sport. You placed 2nd in the Auz comp - you coming to the World's? I suggest, with the German promoter of the European Championships ok, that Chad guests lifts only. He can not win a prize. He will, as Chad said, have a bloody good time, enjoy a beer and lift some heavy ass weights. Hopefully Chad will see where I'm coming from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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