Wr Criteria

[mobsterone]

One thing before we go for the stick method.

When we have a lot of weight on the pinch apparatus there is not much middle bar left that is without weights. How are we going to get the end piece only to touch the stick, and what happens if the weights touch the stick first?

See photo

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=2898

Personally, I think we are making an easy event to ref look clumsy.

David

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Use bigger plates. When you did your Euro 2004 105-kilo effort there was a lot less plates on the bar. If the actual apparatus weighs 20-23 kilos, with the rod included, then a just 2 x 20-kilo discs on either side would on your set-up leave 4-6 inches to hit the rod with.

The only reason it looks bad in the photo is cos there's 5 plates loaded on either side. The numbers you and I have been discussing could be done with 3 plates per side if loaded properly. As we're looking at WR attempts and the numbers we discussed are at that level 3 plates is all that's needed. If, by some miricle someone aimed for 120-140 kilos it still only needs 3 20-kilo discs per side and the apparatus. That massive weight takes up less room than the smaller plates you using in that image. I know you've a ton of 15-kilo plates so dust 'em off ya lazy bum

[mobsterone]

Or use a longer loading pin.

[mobsterone]

Jedd, no argument here.  I would think it would be fine to lower the weight quickly as long as it was under control and not being dropped. 

Dave, in the Olympics, the lifters must maintain control of the bar on the way down - they can't just let it fall from overhead.  Most of them will hold onto the bar as it comes down from overhead and down to their waist.  So there is *some* control, but not a whole lot! haha

Mikael, how would you feel about recognizing a world record lift on say the vbar in a small local contest if the competitor had already competed in high caliber competition, like GGC, or competes later in a big contest and lifts similarly?  Let's use me for example.  I've got a grip contest that I'm putting on in December here in New Mexico.  Obviously, there aren't many grip freaks here but I'd like to think that with some training I might be able to at least scare the vbar WR a little at my contest.  I'll be using the same implements as the Diesel guys for vbar, pinch, and one hand deadlift.  We'll be shooting everything on video and I intend to be a honest and fair judge.  I can't judge my own lifts though!  So what happens if I break the WR in my local contest, with it clearly shot on video, and following the other rules that you've laid out.  With my performance last year at GGC and my (hypothetical) WR on the vbar this year, would you consider it legit?

I'm just trying to get a feel for where everyone stands on issues like this.

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Looking back:

No one claim a world record without video or a photograph (video preferred). I don't care who the witnesses are and if the battery goes, it goes. If you are that strong and really want the record you'll do the lift again at a later time. Be that minutes or hours or days. I don't think the competition should really matter but I do like the idea of any WR being 'in competition' as opposed to garage, bedroom or gym. Again if the person genuinely wants recognition then they will make the effort.

[mobsterone]

Ok, so I'm chatting away with David on MSN and come up with this. Be it Euro style to the knees or GGC style to the steel rule onme MUST show control of the weight.

This means a pause at or through the steel rule at the top of the movement. It also means lowering the weight with a degree of control. The example of the Olympic lifts were bad as they are dynamic lifts which while requring some strength also use a fair bit of momentum.

The two-hand pinch is more like a powerlift in that strength is used or demonstrated at a slower rate.

To me this would mean:

1) Hands locked into position and checked as being within a decent range by a judge. In the V-bar at the 2005 Euro I would ask Arne 'ok?' to check my hand wasn't to far down.

2) Lift to i) the knee under Euro Rules or ii) steel rule under GGC/US rules

3) more/higher if the lifter wishes to show boat a little

4) a slight pause at the required height or at the top of the movement (ie: if the lifter goes all the way)

5) hands on or a lowering under control hands on (to be decided).

I've lifted under both sets of rules and it affected me not one inch one way or another.

The rod not having room on it is invalid. Get a longer rod, use bigger plates, change the diamater down a tad. Whatever. I didn't like Andy Christies set-up at this years 2005 Iron Grip. It had a 2-inch centre section to sit inside the adjustable pinch plates but had the ends set at 1-inch for standard plates. The 2-inch section was nigh on 6 inches long and so the weight was set a lot further out than I'd have preferred. I still did ok (not great, just ok).

[Mikael Siversson]

I am not sure if I am interpreting this correctly. David does not like the revised pinch rules and will stick to the old ones? We need unity for record comparison. I will not include both ways of judging the lifts in my lists in the future. The problem with a marked stop is the inconsistency of the judging. This I have seem examples of with both David Horne and Arne Persson judging.

I think we certainly should compromise with the US organizers. They have adopted our standard equipment and bought it for hard earned money. The least we can do is to let them have a say in the making of the rules. If they want a stick, then let's have a stick in the pinch.

The knee rule becomes undermined if a sumo stance is allowed.

[mobsterone]

Before we go off at a tangent don't forget that just cos you don't agree on something that doesn't mean it's wrong. Same applies to David and the rest of us. If the object of this topic is to come to a standard and having told Clay off for being rude you then suggest if someone disagrees and wants to adopt something other than what you agree on the numbers lifted wont be included in a list you produce. ANYONE can write the lists. I, and others, are grateful for the input and work done thus far by your good self and David have done but what if the general consensus isn't one you'd like or prefer? The target isn't to get everyone to agree 100% but to get as close as possible.

Inferring that both David and Arne don't always judge as perhaps you'd like doesn't mean that you would be the better judge. I refer you to the change that even you agreed on regarding this years Euro pinch. Having had that section take in excess of 4 hours with five attempts x 12 lifters it, while maybe the most level of playing fields, was simply not possible to work in a reasonable way. From that comes the realization that some meeting of minds half way has to take place.

In addition I suggest a practical way round David's problem - a longer bar or using bigger plates. Problem solved. If we need to agree on the bar length and diameter lets do it without suggesting that you will remove the right for such a lift to be on a list.

Providing all can see what the problems are, how they can be solved and how decisions are arrived at (so-called transparency) then not everyone has to agree - just the majority.

There are problems with both lifts.

GGC style - as is

If the GGC steel rule is, as it has been thus far, at a pre-set height, then shorter lifters are at a disadvantage. Although the height is pre-set it will be easier in terms of movement of the levers (thighs) for taller lifters. The width between the breeze blocks prohibits a super wide stance and the height of the bar is already at 8-inches.

Also at the GGC many lifted and then dropped or for all intents and purposes dropped the weight. This is why we have, it seems, arrived at the 'under control'.

Euro Style - as is

Knee height for some, ie: shorter lifters, is easier compared to taller lifters and these has been balanced by the sumo style. This style shortens the range needed to be pulled and is allowable right now.

Again: I have lifted under both sets of rules and I'm not aware of anyone else who can say that right now. It made NOT ONE IOTA OF DIFFERENCE to my efforts. Sumo style, between the blocks and to and through the steel rule I pulled 176lbs on a 2 x 45-pound plate set up. This is literally a few pounds off what I did the same year, 2004, at that years Euro event.

So we get a little closer. Will it be Euro sumo style with its inherent advantages and disadvantages or the GGC steel rule with the same?

[smitty]

Use a longer pipe and move the apparatus back a step. That way, only the pipe will be under the stick.

One thing before we go for the stick method.

When we have a lot of weight on the pinch apparatus there is not much middle bar left that is without weights. How are we going to get the end piece only to touch the stick, and what happens if the weights touch the stick first?

See photo

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=2898

Personally, I think we are making an easy event to ref look clumsy.

David

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[David Horne]

Well after a bit of a nap and some food I feel in a better mood. Steve gave me a bloody headache earlier!

Anyway, he's put up a good post. Well I will get a longer loading bar for our pinch apparatus and go with the stick method, and a touch and go. But refs should keep a good eye on the lowering of the weight, the hands have to be on the disc all the way down.

So is the height to the stick 16.5"?

David

[David Horne]

Smitty,

Yes.

[Jedd Johnson]

David,

The problem you suggest is possible, howeever easy to resolve in my opinion. There are several possible solutions.

First, larger plates must be used at the begining of the loading phase. This will leave more bare bar to contact the pipe.

Second, a longer pipe must be used.

Third, the athlete must be aware that if the implement creeps too far forward, and he contacts the plates to the stick, then the lift won't count. This happened with Pexter last year. he thought his lift counted because he heard the stick move, but we did not allow the lift because it was a plate that touched it and not the pipe.

Fourth, if a plate touches the stick and the athlete continues to pull the implement up to a point where the judge clearly can tell that the pipe crosses the line of the top of the breeze, then the lift will count. For example, in the case with Pexter last year, if he'd touched the stick with the plate and then locked the implement out, the pipe would have definitely been to the high enough level, even beyond it. That attempt would count, as far as I see it, right?

Thanks,

-Jedd-

[smitty]

But refs should keep a good eye on the lowering of the weight, the hands have to be on the disc all the way down.

So is the height to the stick 16.5"?

David

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- Yes we will definitely drive this home to the competitors - lowering the weight under control with their hands on the apparatus

- Yes, 16.5"

Thanks David

[mobsterone]

Fourth, if a plate touches the stick and the athlete continues to pull the implement up to a point where the judge clearly can tell that the pipe crosses the line of the top of the breeze, then the lift will count.  For example, in the case with Pexter last year, if he'd touched the stick with the plate and then locked the implement out, the pipe would have definitely been to the high enough level, even beyond it.  That attempt would count, as far as I see it, right?

Thanks,

-Jedd-

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Sounds good.

[Mikael Siversson]

Before we go off at a tangent don't forget that just cos you don't agree on something that doesn't mean it's wrong.

That is correct.

Same applies to David and the rest of us. If the object of this topic is to come to a standard and having told Clay off for being rude you then suggest if someone disagrees and wants to adopt something other than what you agree on the numbers lifted wont be included in a list you produce. ANYONE can write the lists. I, and others, are grateful for the input and work done thus far by your good self and David have done but what if the general consensus isn't one you'd like or prefer? The target isn't to get everyone to agree 100% but to get as close as possible.

You must have missed the whole discussion. The rules that we suggested had hardly anything in common with the LGC rules which I wrote. The stick thing is certainly not my original idea. It's true that anyone can maintain lists but, to put it simple, they don't.

 

Inferring that both David and Arne don't always judge as perhaps you'd like doesn't mean that you would be the better judge.

I was not comparing the skill of judges but rather pointing out problems with a marked stop. Just have a look at the video photage from the last Euro (the pinch).

I refer you to the change that even you agreed on regarding this years Euro pinch. Having had that section take in excess of 4 hours with five attempts x 12 lifters it, while maybe the most level of playing fields, was simply not possible to work in a reasonable way. From that comes the realization that some meeting of minds half way has to take place.

...and your point is? I prefer to make changes before a contest rather than in the middle of one.

In addition I suggest a practical way round David's problem - a longer bar or using bigger plates. Problem solved. If we need to agree on the bar length and diameter lets do it without suggesting that you will remove the right for such a lift to be on a list.

If everyone would be using the stick method except for David, then I would not include his lifts, as the two would not be fully comparable. Better that then to remove everyone elses results but Davids.

Providing all can see what the problems are, how they can be solved and how decisions are arrived at (so-called transparency) then not everyone has to agree - just the majority.

The majority of competition organizers. I don't pay too much attention (in this discussion) to the oppinion of people who never compete nor organizes competitions.

There are problems with both lifts.

GGC style - as is

If the GGC steel rule is, as it has been thus far, at a pre-set height, then shorter lifters are at a disadvantage. Although the height is pre-set it will be easier in terms of movement of the levers (thighs) for taller lifters. The width between the breeze blocks prohibits a super wide stance and the height of the bar is already at 8-inches.

Also at the GGC many lifted and then dropped or for all intents and purposes dropped the weight. This is why we have, it seems, arrived at the 'under control'.

Yes, no dropping of the bar.

Euro Style - as is

Knee height for some, ie: shorter lifters, is easier compared to taller lifters and these has been balanced by the sumo style. This style shortens the range needed to be pulled and is allowable right now.

Again: I have lifted under both sets of rules and I'm not aware of anyone else who can say that right now. It made NOT ONE IOTA OF DIFFERENCE to my efforts.

Means little as the pinching plates were not the same. I have experienced more than 10 per cent difference between seasoned plates.

Sumo style, between the blocks and to and through the steel rule I pulled 176lbs on a 2 x 45-pound plate set up. This is literally a few pounds off what I did the same year, 2004, at that years Euro event.

So we get a little closer. Will it be Euro sumo style with its inherent advantages and disadvantages or the GGC steel rule with the same?

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[Mikael Siversson]

Mikael, how would you feel about recognizing a world record lift on say the vbar in a small local contest if the competitor had already competed in high caliber competition, like GGC, or competes later in a big contest and lifts similarly?  Let's use me for example.  I've got a grip contest that I'm putting on in December here in New Mexico.  Obviously, there aren't many grip freaks here but I'd like to think that with some training I might be able to at least scare the vbar WR a little at my contest.  I'll be using the same implements as the Diesel guys for vbar, pinch, and one hand deadlift.  We'll be shooting everything on video and I intend to be a honest and fair judge.  I can't judge my own lifts though!  So what happens if I break the WR in my local contest, with it clearly shot on video, and following the other rules that you've laid out.  With my performance last year at GGC and my (hypothetical) WR on the vbar this year, would you consider it legit?

I'm just trying to get a feel for where everyone stands on issues like this.

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Depends. The population basis for New Mexico is about 2 million people (or ten times that of the Swedish province Nerike), so there is good potential for producing high quality competitors. If it is a one off competition with mediocre opposition then no, I would not recognise it. If however you are committing to make this a yearly held State championship and do your best to attract good competitors from the entire state (much like Arne and I did when we started the LGC) then yes, I would recognise a WR, even if you are well ahead of everyone else in the field. My reasoning behind this is that efforts to establish a yearly held state Championship with a reasonable population basis should be rewarded. If it is only a one off competition then it should have a very competent starting field, like David Horne's upcoming comp.

[Mikael Siversson]

In the V-bar at the 2005 Euro I would ask Arne 'ok?' to check my hand wasn't to far down.

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It was too far down.

[mobsterone]

I wasn't asking you and you wasn't refereeing. But I did check

[Mikael Siversson]

I wasn't asking you and you wasn't refereeing.

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You are being very observant today Mobster.

[mobsterone]

Indeed. However, in spite of recalling the discussion over the hand positioning for the v-bar: 5cm from the hand or 5cm from the pinkie I can neither locate what was decided nor find the rules for the Euro events this year. Can you help?

[Mikael Siversson]

Top of pinky at the Europeans, but now standardized back to top of hand. It's not terribly important Mobster. You did well in the v-bar and it is not the competitors fault if the judge is not 100 per cent observant all the time.

[mobsterone]

Cheers. I still couldn't find where the rules for the event were posted.

[Mikael Siversson]

Not my problem.

Ask Arne. I am not even sure the rules were posted here.

Edited September 16, 2005 by Mikael Siversson

[jad]

The gripper record is a prime example of what's wrong with the system.  You guys have two certed  #4 closers over there and the record is a 3.65.  You can't tell me anyone really takes that record seriously. 

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They should take it seriously and many are. It was set in the biggest grip competition in Europe. How cool is it to crumble under pressure Jad? There is no comfort zone on the lifting platform. There is nowhere to hide if you are having a bad day. In the major competitions you are scrutinized by athletes at your level or above. Some disintegrates into jelly in these environments. If you can only perform world class lifts in a comfy environment far away from the alpha males then those lifts means absolutely nothing to me.

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Who crumbled? Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't think there was any #4 closers(prior to competing). In otherwords nobody closed a #4 prior to competing and then failed in the competition. What about Nathan's #4 close? He closed a gripper that hadn't been closed in years, a gripper that the Kinney-haters didn't even think was closed period, and in front of an olympic referee and I thought Dr. Strossen as well. He had to know if he closed it he was going to get all kinds of publicity in MILO. If that's not some pressure then I don't what is.

I agree with everything you're saying about being able to perform under pressure but IMO that's what the contest is for; to see who is the best on that particuliar day. A WR however should represent the best period, it shouldn't need to have any excuses made for it (improper venue) or asterisks like " WR in a high caliber competion".

[mobsterone]

Not my problem.

Ask Arne. I am not even sure the rules were posted here.

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It is if reference is made as to whether or not a lift was passable - if there was no rules then no one can say it was passable other than the ref. I don't think they were which is suprising.

[Mikael Siversson]

I am getting tired with this. Can't you bug someone else? Yes, there were the standard rules in place, with the exception of the pinky rule for the v-bar. We have had the same v-bar rules in the LGC for several years.

[mobsterone]

In the V-bar at the 2005 Euro I would ask Arne 'ok?' to check my hand wasn't to far down.

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It was too far down.

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I am getting tired with this. Can't you bug someone else? Yes, there were the standard rules in place, with the exception of the pinky rule for the v-bar. We have had the same v-bar rules in the LGC for several years.

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Heat and Kitchen. Try not to pass comment on something and how it's judged and who by if the person you aim the comments at can argue their point well enough to be considered observant.

No rules were posted, you wasn't judging, I asked to ensure my grip was as it should be and I lifted well enough within that framework for you to go from 'it was too far down' to 'You did well in the v-bar' within a page.

Nuff said, back to the topic in hand please