Wr Criteria

[mobsterone]

I guess you're talking about the V-bar (u never said). I'd say cos that involves wayyyy too much work. The v-bar is a straight forward bit of kit and the GGC set up involves a steel rule and two breeze blocks. Un-complicated stuff.

[smitty]

Looks like we're going with 16.5" or 41,91 cm

[Mikael Siversson]

Did you use a marked stop in the GGC 2004, or touch and go?

[jad]

I wish it was that simple. Would you recognise a WR set by me in competition against my daughters, with my wife judging?

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Rule 8 needs to go or at the very least have some clarification. People are going to have different ideas of "high caliber" and someone who breaks a WR shouldn't lose out because not enough "high caliber" grip athletes showed up. The idea of having to be advertised on the Gripboard or any board, is a little arrogant as well.

Yes I would recognize it as long as the weights were legit and no cheating took place. Granted if your wife was the only witness I think you would need some video and something to prove the weights were calibrated. The weight/feat itself, not the venue, should prevent someone from breaking a WR.

[smitty]

That is the beauty of the stick method - we can dub it the Vigeant Method - since they developed the idea.

By using the Vigeant method - the athletes have to pull hard enough to contact the metal meter stick - and 99% of the time they drive right through the stick to make sure they hit it. So it becomes almost a pause. Our criteria will be touch and go, but because of the visual target - the athlete really has a great visual goal to drive through...

Did you use a marked stop in the GGC 2004, or touch and go?

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[Mikael Siversson]

That means the video of a WR vbar lift would be sent to David Horne, Bob Lipinski, Diesel Crew, Mikael (if he is a contest organizer, I don't know if he is) and Arne. 

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I am coorganising competitions from a distance so to speak (as I live in the most isolated larger city in the world) and very much involved in the LGC, Europeans and this years Australian Championship.

I think a video requirement is good, BUT what about if the camera fails. Should we then penalize the lifter by nullifying his or her WR?

Video photage is not required for setting WR's in OL and IPF PL as far as I am aware.

[Mikael Siversson]

I wish it was that simple. Would you recognise a WR set by me in competition against my daughters, with my wife judging?

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Rule 8 needs to go or at the very least have some clarification. People are going to have different ideas of "high caliber" and someone who breaks a WR shouldn't lose out because not enough "high caliber" grip athletes showed up. The idea of having to be advertised on the Gripboard or any board, is a little arrogant as well.

Yes I would recognize it as long as the weights were legit and no cheating took place. Granted if your wife was the only witness I think you would need some video and something to prove the weights were calibrated. The weight/feat itself, not the venue, should prevent someone from breaking a WR.

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You are opening a can of worms to say the least. My next v-bar workout is tomorrow. So do everyone recognise a 165k lift as WR if I succeed? The lineup would include me, my 7-year old daughter and her 5-year old sister. The 7-year old pulled 21.5k very easily in training so we should have some good numbers.

If I fail I will try again next week. The best thing with this is that I can enjoy the advantage of owing a LGC v-bar replica as I can go for a WR as often as I wish.

Seriously, assume we have a lifter who pulls huge weights in the v-bar in training and the enters a major competition and is nowhere near the WR. He then enters another small local competition (with very mediocre opposition) a few weeks later and pulls huge weights again, well above the WR. He is invited to duplicate the feat in the top competition of the year, well within travel distance, but declines to participate. Soon afterwards he is once again competing in the small local competition and again pulls a huge weight, perhaps expecting it to be recognised as WR.

[Mikael Siversson]

Sounds fair enough. Do they have to lower it under control?

That is the beauty of the stick method - we can dub it the Vigeant Method - since they developed the idea.

By using the Vigeant method - the athletes has to pull hard enough to contact the metal meter stick - and 99% of the time they drive right through the stick to make sure they hit it.  So it becomes almost a pause.  Our criteria will be touch and go, but because of the visual target - the athlete really has a great visual goal to drive through...

Did you use a marked stop in the GGC 2004, or touch and go?

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[Kurt Lane]

2HP- The stick method is definatly the best idea, and the touch and go part of it aswell... this way we dont ever have to second guess if that person made the "full" second or not pause ex ex..

As far as World Records go. I think its fair to make them only count toward a WR when there done in a respectable contest with a decent amount of competitors. If your PLing WR numbers you should be getting your ass to a contest anyway.

[Mikael Siversson]

I am happy with the pinch rule.

[jad]

[

You are opening a can of worms to say the least. My next v-bar workout is tomorrow. So do everyone recognise a 165k lift as WR if I succeed? The lineup would include me, my 7-year old daughter and her 5-year old sister. The 7-year old pulled 21.5k very easily in training so we should have some good numbers.

If I fail I will try again next week. The best thing with this is that I can enjoy the advantage of owing a LGC v-bar replica as I can go for a WR as often as I wish.

Seriously, assume we have a lifter who pulls huge weights in the v-bar in training and the enters a major competition and is nowhere near the WR. He then enters another small local competition (with very mediocre opposition) a few weeks later and pulls huge weights again, well above the WR. He is invited to duplicate the feat in the top competition of the year, well within travel distance, but declines to participate. Soon afterwards he is once again competing in the small local competition and again pulls a huge weight, perhaps expecting it to be recognised as WR.

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I wouldn't because I don't think a 7 and 5 y/o count as a qualified judge, you mentioned nothing about the weights being calibrated, and said nothing of video proof. If you met those requirements, then I would recognize it, but I can't speak for everyone.

As far as being able to try as often as you wish: so what; a bonafide WR should be able to stand up to all attempts(excluding cheating). If the WR can't stand up to these attempts then it's not much of a WR. Why shouldn't the mediocre competition WR be recognized? I understand what you're saying about having to perform under the pressure of top competition but two can play the game. If the current WR holder has his record broke by someone in a very small competition or even a garage all he has to do is enter a small competition of his own and break the new WR. Once again he'll be the best, because he lifted the most weight, not because of where he lifted it. He should be able to do this if it's really the high competition that is holding him back from bigger poundages.

The gripper record is a prime example of what's wrong with the system. You guys have two certed #4 closers over there and the record is a 3.65. You can't tell me anyone really takes that record seriously. At the very least there needs to be individual records, like there is for track events as opposed to making everyone become a decathlete.

[smitty]

That is definitely the goal

Sounds fair enough. Do they have to lower it under control?

That is the beauty of the stick method - we can dub it the Vigeant Method - since they developed the idea.

By using the Vigeant method - the athletes has to pull hard enough to contact the metal meter stick - and 99% of the time they drive right through the stick to make sure they hit it.  So it becomes almost a pause.  Our criteria will be touch and go, but because of the visual target - the athlete really has a great visual goal to drive through...

Did you use a marked stop in the GGC 2004, or touch and go?

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[Mikael Siversson]

Failing to lower the weight under control is a failed lift in my oppinion.

[Mikael Siversson]

The gripper record is a prime example of what's wrong with the system.  You guys have two certed  #4 closers over there and the record is a 3.65.  You can't tell me anyone really takes that record seriously. 

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They should take it seriously and many are. It was set in the biggest grip competition in Europe. How cool is it to crumble under pressure Jad? There is no comfort zone on the lifting platform. There is nowhere to hide if you are having a bad day. In the major competitions you are scrutinized by athletes at your level or above. Some disintegrates into jelly in these environments. If you can only perform world class lifts in a comfy environment far away from the alpha males then those lifts means absolutely nothing to me.

[Clay Edgin]

Referring to my suggestions as "nonsense" will not do this discussion any good. You are old enough to disagree in a polite manner.

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You're right and I apologize. I, like you, am passionate about making sure the criteria are stringent enough to actually mean something but not so strict that it is impossible to reward athletes for excellent performance. Basically, my only issue with the rules above is that a WR lift might not recognized because of the caliber of the other competitors in the contest. In my mind, anyone breaking the world record is a high caliber competitor and it shouldn't matter what contest it happens at so long as the judges have sufficient experience with what constitutes a good lift and the implement is standardized.

[Jedd Johnson]

Failing to lower the weight under control is a failed lift in my oppinion.

I can agree with that. Anyone disagree with this?

-Jedd-

[Kurt Lane]

Depends what constitues "Under control" If that means having your hands on it the whole time till its back to ground, ok. Nothing to do with the speed at which you do it tho.

[dave]

not sure i agree, its called a LIFT, not a LIFT and LOWER.

in the olympics, once lift is called good, wieghts are dropped

[Mikael Siversson]

Referring to my suggestions as "nonsense" will not do this discussion any good. You are old enough to disagree in a polite manner.

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In my mind, anyone breaking the world record is a high caliber competitor and it shouldn't matter what contest it happens at so long as the judges have sufficient experience with what constitutes a good lift and the implement is standardized.

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I would respectfully disagree with this. In my mind "high calibre competitor" should denominate a lifter that can perform world class lifts against highly qualified competitors. This is the essence of my argument. We have seen examples of competitors that produce huge v-bar numbers in training and in small local competitions against mediocre opposition, only to completely fail in a major competition and pulling a whopping 50-60lbs BELOW the WR. Some of these were given a second chance to duplicate their huge numbers in the European championship but then declined to participate.

[Mikael Siversson]

not sure i agree, its called a LIFT, not a LIFT and LOWER.

in the olympics, once lift is called good, wieghts are dropped

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Please no dropping of the weights in friction lifts. In OL the weights are dropped primarily for safety reasons I would guess. Moreover, besides showing lack of control of the lift, dropping a pinch set up usually means a lot of extra work fastening the collars etc.

[Mikael Siversson]

Depends what constitues "Under control" If that means having your hands on it the whole time till its back to ground, ok. Nothing to do with the speed at which you do it tho.

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Yes the plates can be lowered quickly, just not dropped.

[Mikael Siversson]

In order for this to be a compromise, the weights in the pinch have to be lowered under control.

The European rules included a marked stop at "lockout", no pre-set bar to touch and lowering the weights under control. It seems fair that we keep one of these rules (lowering the weights under control).

[Clay Edgin]

Jedd, no argument here. I would think it would be fine to lower the weight quickly as long as it was under control and not being dropped.

Dave, in the Olympics, the lifters must maintain control of the bar on the way down - they can't just let it fall from overhead. Most of them will hold onto the bar as it comes down from overhead and down to their waist. So there is *some* control, but not a whole lot! haha

Mikael, how would you feel about recognizing a world record lift on say the vbar in a small local contest if the competitor had already competed in high caliber competition, like GGC, or competes later in a big contest and lifts similarly? Let's use me for example. I've got a grip contest that I'm putting on in December here in New Mexico. Obviously, there aren't many grip freaks here but I'd like to think that with some training I might be able to at least scare the vbar WR a little at my contest. I'll be using the same implements as the Diesel guys for vbar, pinch, and one hand deadlift. We'll be shooting everything on video and I intend to be a honest and fair judge. I can't judge my own lifts though! So what happens if I break the WR in my local contest, with it clearly shot on video, and following the other rules that you've laid out. With my performance last year at GGC and my (hypothetical) WR on the vbar this year, would you consider it legit?

I'm just trying to get a feel for where everyone stands on issues like this.

Edited September 16, 2005 by ClayEdgin

[David Horne]

One thing before we go for the stick method.

When we have a lot of weight on the pinch apparatus there is not much middle bar left that is without weights. How are we going to get the end piece only to touch the stick, and what happens if the weights touch the stick first?

See photo

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=2898

Personally, I think we are making an easy event to ref look clumsy.

David

[Bob Lipinski]

I have wondered about World Records and Comps too.

Clay, as per a message I sent to Mikael, if we have trouble ironing out standards for smaller meets, we can still keep a seperate set of American records.