Mikael Siversson Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 This is a copy of a previous posting I did. David Horne agreed but I have since added more and would like have some input from others, in particular organizers of major grip competitions (e.g., the Diesel Crew). The discussion and rules apply primarily to the two Euro-standard events v-bar and two hand pinch. David Horne is working on a revised set of rules for the one hand lift. 1. Records must be set in allround grip strength competitions using standardised equipment that has not been tempered with (for example, v-bars and pinch discs should be stored in a dry environment preventing rust), other than the usual chalk seasoning. 2. Chalk only. 3. No band aids allowed unless injury can be demonstrated to the judge. The band aid must then be approved by the judge. In general band aids do not help in friction lifts. Its quite the contrary. 4. Four attempts allowed, all within the overall competition, and all with time constraints. 5. Record attempts judged by a qualified individual, i.e., one who fully understands the rules. For WR I would personally prefer two or more judges as well as video footage. 6. Record attempts carried out on a leveled, solid floor or platform. 7. V-bar records according to standard rules already in place. For the two hand pinch we need to come up with standardized rules. I prefer a marked, one second stop before lowering the plates under control. I liked the Diesel Crew's stick method of a pre-set minimum lifting height (2004 GGC). 8. Record attempts valid only in high caliber competitions, advertised here, and recognised as such by the organizers of the major grip competitions. World records should be set under major pressure from world class opposition. It should be the responsibility of the organizer to expand the scope of the competition so that the starting field includes a strong line up. 9. All weights used need to be calibrated beforehand and weigh at least as much as nominally indicated. 10. Hands examined straight after a WR by the judge, to make sure no sticky substances were used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Cenidoza Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I don't agree with #8. Who is to say what a "high caliber" competition is? Why would it matter that your opponents are "world class"? The organizer can "expand the scope" but they cannot guaruntee anything. So if the right people don't show (or not enough of them), a world record lift is not regarded as such? I'm sorry but a good [competition] lift, is a good [competition] lift; regardless of who is competing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted September 15, 2005 Author Share Posted September 15, 2005 I wish it was that simple. Would you recognise a WR set by me in competition against my daughters, with my wife judging? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimwylie1 Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Al this talk of WR record criteria, agreement on rules, definitions of high calibre competitions etc says to me that we are crying out for some kind of international committee to make these decisions. I know there is life outside of the gripboard but this seems like a damn fine place to start. We could have a couple of gripboard nominated individuals from a number of defined geographical areas who would get together and decide on lifts, rules and standards that are used in comps. This may sound like a crazy idea to some, but it makes perfect sense to me - after all standardisation of competitions so we can make meaningful comparisons seems to the overall aim of the likes of David, Mikael, Clay, the diesel boys (sorry if I forgot anyone). Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I thought that was exactly what the various posts were achieving. I suggest that those things which have already had some agreement be pinned in the FAQ. Anytime they need updating email/pm a mod and ask for the topic to be edited and updated. The v-bar is as close to being completely agreed as any movement. Let (Jim ha ha) someone tally up all such info and post it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted September 15, 2005 Author Share Posted September 15, 2005 I don't agree with #8.The organizer can "expand the scope" but they cannot guaruntee anything. So if the right people don't show (or not enough of them), a world record lift is not regarded as such? ← I have already discussed this in a previous post a few months ago. The organizer and the competitors should not be penalized if the top guns decide to give it a miss at the last moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimwylie1 Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Mobster, I would quite happily get involved if I could contribute. The only reason that I suggest this is because I think some things would get decided quicker. I am not discounting anything that has been achieved here, between Mikael and David or by anyone else that has been involved in organisaing cometitions. Afterall, it's a lot more than I have contributed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I wish it was that simple. Would you recognise a WR set by me in competition against my daughters, with my wife judging? ← No. But that is an obviously extreme example. Besides it sounds like a family gathering. Now if there were 10 other athletes there and one or two were well-known... A simple answer is that the guys and gals of the gripboard reconize the lift, event and judges, as being high calibre. Add to that the equipment is as it ought to be, the lift videoed and or photographed (preferably video) and that there is a claim being made for a WR. As a less extreme example I offer Kevin Fultons event. High calibre but not big and or the Iron Grip events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I don't agree with #8.The organizer can "expand the scope" but they cannot guaruntee anything. So if the right people don't show (or not enough of them), a world record lift is not regarded as such? ← I have already discussed this in a previous post a few months ago. The organizer and the competitors should not be penalized if the top guns decide to give it a miss at the last moment. ← Therefore point 8 DOES need changing. If a competitor wanted to go for a WR and all the other basic points were covered it wouldn't be their fault if no-one was close to being of a high calibre. Here's how it could read now: 8. Record attempts valid only in a competition, advertised here, and of which the events, equipment and rules governing the lifts are recognised as such by the organizers of the major grip competitions. World records should be set under major pressure from world class opposition - where possible. It should be the responsibility of the organizer to expand the scope of the competition so that the starting field includes a strong line up - where possible. It isn't necessary to have every event in the whole comp as ones that are recognised but that the WR is on a lift which is - as per the above suggested guidelines. I do appreciate the need, where possible, to have a high standard to compete against as this does, in most people, lift their game. But it isn't a necessity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted September 15, 2005 Author Share Posted September 15, 2005 I don't agree with #8.The organizer can "expand the scope" but they cannot guaruntee anything. So if the right people don't show (or not enough of them), a world record lift is not regarded as such? ← I have already discussed this in a previous post a few months ago. The organizer and the competitors should not be penalized if the top guns decide to give it a miss at the last moment. ← I do appreciate the need, where possible, to have a high standard to compete against as this does, in most people, lift their game. But it isn't a necessity. ← I am more concerned with situations were people are setting WR after WR in small local competitions with mediocre opposition, only to produce way below this level in high calibre competitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay Edgin Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 (edited) #8 is nonsense. A world record is the highest lift out of everyone who has ever lifted on that implement, not necessarily the highest lift out of everyone who competed at a contest. As long as we're all using the same implement with the same rules and good judging (the last is possibly the most important) then it should count. Mikael, if you set that vbar record with your wife judging, you'd be open to the same scrutiny Joe Kinney had when he supposedly closed the #4 in front of his wife. If a person breaks the world record in a lift, doesn't that make the person worthy enough to be considered a "high caliber" competitor? And if they're a high caliber competitor, doesn't that make the competition a high caliber competition? When I put on a contest, I don't plan on judging world record attempts loosely. They mean as much to me as they do to anyone else here and I'd rather turn down a questionable lift than let it pass and have there be doubt. Doubt does nothing good for our sport. I like the other 9 rules just fine but #8 has got to go or be modified as Steve mentioned above. To me "where possible" indicates that the promoter is responsible for doing everything they can to recruit high caliber competitors to come try to break the records. And since this is the #1 place for hand strength on the web and home to the strongest grip athletes, simply advertising the contest here should be enough to satisfy that requirement. Why should a WR lift I may make on the vbar be nullified just because other strong guys decided not to show up? I just saw Mikael's post above mine, so let me add this suggestion rather than just bitching -- for WR attempts, they must be captured on video (as mentioned above) and submitted for review to the organizers of major grip competitions in the US and abroad. That means the video of a WR vbar lift would be sent to David Horne, Bob Lipinski, Diesel Crew, Mikael (if he is a contest organizer, I don't know if he is) and Arne. Majority can rule. If 3 say it was good and 2 don't, it would be good. Getting everyone to agree on a lift and requiring 100% consensus based on video would be so difficult that WR's that should have been broken were not. Edited September 15, 2005 by ClayEdgin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitty Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 7. V-bar records according to standard rules already in place. For the two hand pinch we need to come up with standardized rules. I prefer a marked, one second stop before lowering the plates under control. I liked the Diesel Crew's stick method of a pre-set minimum lifting height (2004 GGC). I need clarification for how high to set the stick for the top of the 2 HP. We need this information immediately Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I don't agree with #8.The organizer can "expand the scope" but they cannot guaruntee anything. So if the right people don't show (or not enough of them), a world record lift is not regarded as such? ← I have already discussed this in a previous post a few months ago. The organizer and the competitors should not be penalized if the top guns decide to give it a miss at the last moment. ← I do appreciate the need, where possible, to have a high standard to compete against as this does, in most people, lift their game. But it isn't a necessity. ← I am more concerned with situations were people are setting WR after WR in small local competitions with mediocre opposition, only to produce way below this level in high calibre competitions. ← If such a thing happened (I'm aware of such events - normally no WR claims are made) then the plank would be found out and the record list amended. Of course, habing to go heavy on all the other events would sure tire someone out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted September 15, 2005 Author Share Posted September 15, 2005 World Records in sports are set in competitons, simple as that. They are only recognised as WR in OL and IPF PL for example if a certain number of criteria are satisfied, including quality and status of the judges etc. Referring to my suggestions as "nonsense" will not do this discussion any good. You are old enough to disagree in a polite manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted September 15, 2005 Author Share Posted September 15, 2005 7. V-bar records according to standard rules already in place. For the two hand pinch we need to come up with standardized rules. I prefer a marked, one second stop before lowering the plates under control. I liked the Diesel Crew's stick method of a pre-set minimum lifting height (2004 GGC).I need clarification for how high to set the stick for the top of the 2 HP. We need this information immediately ← How high did you set it last year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitty Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I will check the setup and we can use that as the standard. When I find out - I will post it here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 When I wrote out some rules, I believe I said that the plates should be raised at least 1 foot off the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 "7. For the two hand pinch we need to come up with standardized rules. I prefer a marked, one second stop before lowering the plates under control. I liked the Diesel Crew's stick method of a pre-set minimum lifting height (2004 GGC). " It has to be one or the other as I think pausing for a second with the stick wobbling around would be a put off and a pain. I am more in favour with the hands above knee, but if the majority wanted the stick method I would go along with it. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitty Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I believe how David discussed with me was: once the finger tips move past the midpoint of the knee. I like this as a standard, but this method, of course, becomes subject to debate and variance with different judges at different contests. I believe the yardstick method is by far our best option as the height can be standardized and the success is 100% Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I'll go with the flow as I said. But I think if we use the stick method it should be touch and go. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Horne Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 But of course a referee has to judge all kinds of lifts anyway. A V-bar is even tougher to judge as it may only be raised 2", where as a pinch lift does move a good amount of distance. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitty Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Of course - I definitely agree on this point... I'll go with the flow as I said.But I think if we use the stick method it should be touch and go. David ← Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I have lifted under both sets of rules and other than checking hands and hand positioning the judging of the 'to the bar' technique is far easier and less open to debate. As has been suggested a standard height and width between the breeze blocks used is required. The 'to the knee' technique is an easy one to get around and I use David's Sumo style for that reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitty Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 It seems decided for us then for GGC2005 - We will use the stick method - We will be touch and go - I will post the exact height for our setup Thank you all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadams Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 why dont someone build a 2 inch deep container that the weight sits in, mark the bottom plate and when it comes out of that its a good lift? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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