Overview of King Kong Situation in Ukraine

[Vinnie]

50 minutes ago, Mywor said:

Overall I feel like this whole thing has brought any lifts done and the spirit of KK in to question. From now on I'd love to have requirement for every KK venue to have lifts filmed and released. I know the finnish grip community agrees with my statement.

If one experienced lifter and venue runner is lifting the Crusher and Blockbuster like that while calling them good lifts I'm worried others may be doing it as well or follow suit.. Also, even if there was no tacky or any other substance used, if the runner of the venue is clearly using illegal lifting techniques that add tremendous amount of kilos I'm sure so did someone else in the venue. So this unfortunately brings all lifts in the venue under assumption of cheating (intentional or not).

Yes, and I think ALL lifts for that venue should be disqualified.  And probably all lifts should be filmed, at least if they could affect the standings, which may matter even to those who are not likely to win the whole thing.

For example, I am 83kg like the cheater, and I am never in contention to win the 83kg class.  But I have taken some pride in how well I do anyway.  For example, in 2018 (my first year in grip sport), I placed 8th of 28 in my weight class, and in 2020 (my second King Kong, I missed 2019), I placed 6th of 23 -- and the cheater placed 5th.  At ages 49 and 51 years old with very little strength training in my life, I was proud of these results even though I did not win an award or set any records.  It is annoying to think that someone may have cheated to take one of those spots above me, even if neither of us won first place.  I improved my standing a little in two years even at 6th, but 5th of 23 is better than 6th of 23.  Of course integrity of results is more important for records and trophies, but this is still a question of integrity, and that affects folks wanting to be in the competition. 

Who wants to be ranked against cheaters?

Knowing that he is still arguing that his cheats should be counted, I have to assume he cheated in 2020 also, and I was actually 5th in 2020 -- so not only is Dmitriy not the strongest in 83kg as he boasts, but he is not even as strong as an over-50-year-old lawyer who doesn't train!  And by the way, I have no idea how strong he is and I won't claim to know which is stronger -- my point is that since he cheats, NO ONE knows.

We don't need this attitude.  He should be apologizing and begging for forgiveness, and instead he is posting on facebook complaining about Eric, as if Eric was somehow wrong for refusing to accept the cheating.  Really, just ban him from the sport and be done with the nonsense, and show others they can find a different sport to cheat in, we don't want it here.

[dubyagrip]

4 minutes ago, Vinnie said:

Yes, and I think ALL lifts for that venue should be disqualified.  And probably all lifts should be filmed, at least if they could affect the standings, which may matter even to those who are not likely to win the whole thing.

For example, I am 83kg like the cheater, and I am never in contention to win the 83kg class.  But I have taken some pride in how well I do anyway.  For example, in 2018 (my first year in grip sport), I placed 8th of 28 in my weight class, and in 2020 (my second King Kong, I missed 2019), I placed 6th of 23 -- and the cheater placed 5th.  At ages 49 and 51 years old with very little strength training in my life, I was proud of these results even though I did not win an award or set any records.  It is annoying to think that someone may have cheated to take one of those spots above me, even if neither of us won first place.  I improved my standing a little in two years even at 6th, but 5th of 23 is better than 6th of 23.  Of course integrity of results is more important for records and trophies, but this is still a question of integrity, and that affects folks wanting to be in the competition. 

Who wants to be ranked against cheaters?

Knowing that he is still arguing that his cheats should be counted, I have to assume he cheated in 2020 also, and I was actually 5th in 2020 -- so not only is Dmitriy not the strongest in 83kg as he boasts, but he is not even as strong as an over-50-year-old lawyer who doesn't train!  And by the way, I have no idea how strong he is and I won't claim to know which is stronger -- my point is that since he cheats, NO ONE knows.

We don't need this attitude.  He should be apologizing and begging for forgiveness, and instead he is posting on facebook complaining about Eric, as if Eric was somehow wrong for refusing to accept the cheating.  Really, just ban him from the sport and be done with the nonsense, and show others they can find a different sport to cheat in, we don't want it here.

Cheaters should be allowed on the list. Named, at the very bottom.

[Eric Roussin]

On 10/29/2023 at 8:15 AM, Vinnie said:

Yes.  You, Eric, are rightfully respected for your integrity in the sport, and so is Ivan.  I'm inclined to support you and Ivan over anyone less established who disputes with you, but if I did have any doubts, the video would have erased them.

I hope you will disqualify that whole venue, and no longer allow that promoter to participate.  Given the video proof of what many of the lifters and the promoter HAD to know was cheating, and the multiple people feeling a sticky substance, I think it is a fair conclusion that the promoter was dishonest as well and NONE of the results from that venue can be reliable.  This is not a criminal case with jail - you don't need proof beyond a reasonable doubt.  The scale just needs to tip more likely one way than the other (in law we call that a preponderance of the evidence).  The scale tips in favor of foul play here.  It might even be beyond a reasonable doubt, but it does not need to be certain.  Just more likely than not.  You have that.  It is not the fault of every participant:  maybe some did not know.  Also, it does not mean that every lift really WAS bad; just that you have no way of knowing what is anyone's real result.

I will note that in an arm lifting comp, where the implement involved was new and never before contested, the promoter at the venue where I competed misjudged how to do the lift, and we all unwittingly did the lift wrong and got higher results than made sense.  ALL of our lifts were disqualified because of some video showing just the top lifts being done wrong.  And this was without KNOWING we were doing it wrong, and we did not ask for the lifts (even the unrecorded lighter ones) to be counted, or to get a do-over.  We knew the lifts could not be counted once we were told why.  We were angry that we had wasted our time with the comp, but not at the lifts not being counted -- just at the bad communication by arm lifting USA.  

Grip sports is run better than that.  You did not cause this problem by miscommunicating.  These were not new, never-before tried implements.  This was cheating, and they are looking for an out by asking for re-dos, etc., after their attempts were shown not to be valid.  But it is a rising bar, and they took their attempts.  After their cheating failed, they should not get a chance to do it right after finding out they didn't get away with it.  Maybe offer them to continue the rising bar where it left off, but with proof of good lifts lol.  Start the IM block at 60kg?  LOL.  Just kidding of course, although without cheating, that would be the same as not counting it.  You should not count any of their lifts, or, at least, not unless there is a good video of it that you know was done during their attempts.  But the sticky stuff I think means even a good vid is suspect.

And because of the sticky stuff, you should not allow that promoter back.  That is proof enough on its own -- Ivan, who is the lead grip sports rep in Ukraine, and others he trusts, have confirmed the stickiness.  Enough said.  You don't need a lab result telling you what it was.

Nip this in the bud.  No one is going to trust results if shenanigans like this are not stomped out with a strong boot.

Vinnie - this post was helpful for me to realize that I had been treating the Russia situation as a "beyond a reasonable doubt" situation, rather than a "preponderance of evidence" situation. I knew the results coming out of Russia didn't compute, but upon seeing the videos, I couldn't see anything wrong initially (nor did the close group of people I had shared them with). So I kept thinking, maybe, somehow it was possible that they legitimately lifted these weights, and I didn't want to rush to judgment. 

We were already well beyond the preponderance of evidence level, but now with some newly discovered clues (hints at adhesive usage in the videos), the scales have tipped even further.

Thanks.

[BottledCitrus]

On 10/29/2023 at 2:09 PM, dubyagrip said:

Cheaters should be allowed on the list. Named, at the very bottom.

Fantastic idea

[C8Myotome]

On 10/26/2023 at 4:14 AM, Ivan Pupchenko said:

That was a sweet v-bar lift