Elite Status For The 82.5 Division

[Jordan Rechsteiner]

I freely admit I like a third weight class in grip. But it’s funny that Bob Lipinski – Zack Coulter and I have held a 94k weight class for at least four years now and it doesn’t count for anything – no records – results all gone – just like it never happened. But you, Mikael, and I talked the idea up on a forum with no real discussion – no history etc – or with anyone else and now it seems we have another class. It seems like a very strange way to do business I guess. The lack of some type of more formal organizational structure is going to continue to haunt us until such exists I think. Three guys on a forum shouldn’t be able to do something like this. If we truly want the respect of other strength sport people – we really need to do better than this. And hell – I like what we seem to be doing here. I can’t imagine how I’d feel if I disagreed with it.

What exactly was the reasoning for choosing 94kg?

Jedd - when I decided to have a separate class to divide Gripmas was the year I had 25 or so competitors. My goal was to try for an even division into two classes. So I simply figured out the average or mean (maths not my thing) weight and used that as a division. It came out at the 94K - 207+# mark - and thus was born a 94K class for Gripmas. Over the years it has been a pretty fair division as far as cutting the field into two parts. And it probably still is if the goal is two classes. I imagine you could take the weights of a bunch of the normal players that attend contests and divide it mathematically into thirds if you wanted to but if probably isn't worth the trouble really.

I hope I don't sound arrogant here by offering my opinion. Certainly I am no strong man but I do think that proportional numbers won't be as effective going from the heavyweights or open weight class down to the 82.5lb class. My reasoning is that protional feats favor the smaller organism. Most (healthy) housecats can run proportionally faster than tigers or lions and can jump much higher. Show me a tiger that can jump vertically 7 times his height like my pet cat. Thats off topic a bit. Ok try this one: do you remember the olympic weightlifter "Pocket Hercules" aka Naim Süleymanoğlu? He is the 2nd of only 7 humans to clean and jerk 3 times his body weight. I don't think a man 6'4" could ever do that no matter how much he trained. Then again, I don't know who else is on that list of 7. I think the cusp of human performance in this matter would be sort of parabolic in nature, rather than directly proportional. Proportional numbers can be effective if we take the WR from each weight class 82.5, 100, and open and I can put those three numbers on a parabolic curve relative to eachother and then you could see what 800lbs at the open weight translates to at the 82.5 class. While direct variation sounds good as is in fact far better than a rough gestimate like 700lbs, logic dictates that 668lbs would see a far greater percentage in the 82.5 class attaining elite status. These are just my thoughts however, and I realize that I have no business talking when I not elite by any means even in my favorite discipline: grippers. Please do not regard my opinions as blowhard I am merely presenting my observations.

-Jordan

[EricMilfeld]

Well, if Elite must be synonymous with a Nationals qualifying total I would suggest keeping the figure low enough to ensure a healthy turnout. But perhaps we should mimic powerlifting yet again and have National qualifying totals that are lower than Elite totals. I think an Elite total should be just that: an elite badge of merit. I think the 800 total for the heavyweight class is just that, as evidenced by the very short list of those who have accomplished it. So, I think the following totals would represent the cream of the crop:

lightweight (82.5): 675

middleweight (100): 750

heavyweight: 800

Again, these could be tweaked as more and more contestants make for a larger pool of statistics.

And maybe National qualifying totals could be, say, 10% less than the Elite marks.

[Cannon]

Well, if Elite must be synonymous with a Nationals qualifying total I would suggest keeping the figure low enough to ensure a healthy turnout. But perhaps we should mimic powerlifting yet again and have National qualifying totals that are lower than Elite totals. I think an Elite total should be just that: an elite badge of merit. I think the 800 total for the heavyweight class is just that, as evidenced by the very short list of those who have accomplished it. So, I think the following totals would represent the cream of the crop: lightweight (82.5): 675 middleweight (100): 750 heavyweight: 800 Again, these could be tweaked as more and more contestants make for a larger pool of statistics. And maybe National qualifying totals could be, say, 10% less than the Elite marks.

As this has been going along, I've been trying to think of the whole 82.5 class and not just myself. Even while voicing support for a 725 total, in the back of my mind I'm thinking "well, I will never get there." I'm glad others (Eric and Jedd) have offered lower totals.

I really liked Adam's comments about the general 82.5 competitor needing to add 100lbs to their total, and his comparisons to bodyweight. For example, with a 175 gripper close, we're asking the average 82.5 competitor to close a rated gripper maybe 10-15lbs over their bodyweight! It's a very short list of people anywhere who have closed a rated gripper even at their bodyweight. In training let alone a comp.

Also I do agree with Jordan's comments that proportional lifts are easier for lighter guys.

My point is that I know I'm flip-flopping, but I do favor a slightly lower total for the 82.5. Jedd's proportional suggestion of 551 is a great way to think about this, but might be too low. Eric's suggestion of 675 seems reasonable. This could be a 160 gripper, 190 2HP, and a 325 axle. To use myself as an example, this would be a bodyweight gripper close, +30lbs bodyweight 2HP, and over 2X bodyweight axle. That seems Elite to me.

While attainable for my size, I believe I would really struggle with the +300 axle requirement and would like to voice again that I support the idea of more ways to get in.

[jad]

I like Eric's idea of using two standards; a national qualifying total and the actual elite. The only thing I'd change would be to leave the 800 fo the 100kg class based on the fact that Adam and Paul, two 100kg guys, already hit the total. I'd prefer to see different events but I have no problem with the 800 poundage.

[Jedd Johnson]

Let me throw something out here.

The Elite category was designed to take the very top guys out of the open class.

This was to make it so they competed against one another instead of dominating contests and keeping others from competing.

In the grand scheme of things it was to get more people into the sport.

Is having an elite category in each weight class going to do this?

RE: The Gripmas Weight Class - Thank you Chris for the reminder.

Jedd

[Jedd Johnson]

Maybe a lightweight elite total could be 750. 700 sounds too low. After all it is supposed to be an elite total.

This is a good point. It needs to be something that the competitors have to work their asses off for or they need to be extremely gifted.

[jad]

Let me throw something out here.

The Elite category was designed to take the very top guys out of the open class.

This was to make it so they competed against one another instead of dominating contests and keeping others from competing.

In the grand scheme of things it was to get more people into the sport.

Is having an elite category in each weight class going to do this?

RE: The Gripmas Weight Class - Thank you Chris for the reminder.

Jedd

And do we think Grip can support six classes per contest?

[Jedd Johnson]

The problem with that approach is that bodyweights have been recorded for grip competitions every now and again since the introduction of the Europinch standard. We would then have to go back and look at all these contests (= huge amount of work). It would be unfair to dismiss results from these contests (where the body weight were recorded) but approve the Gripmas contests. That's my view. I would prefer if we start on a new page.

If we have the records of those contests, why not count them? How many are we really talking about here?

As far as work, that is the promoter's deal. Chris keeps that info in spreadsheets. Bob, on the other hand, does not keep a laptop running at the contest (at least not at the two shows I attended). Either way, I bet both of them could go back and find this info.

I don't think we should be in such a rush to just cast those records aside.

[Jedd Johnson]

Let me throw something out here.

The Elite category was designed to take the very top guys out of the open class.

This was to make it so they competed against one another instead of dominating contests and keeping others from competing.

In the grand scheme of things it was to get more people into the sport.

Is having an elite category in each weight class going to do this?

RE: The Gripmas Weight Class - Thank you Chris for the reminder.

Jedd

And do we think Grip can support six classes per contest?

Absolutely not.

The way I see this working for the time being is this...

All of the tools to get people to compete and pay entry fees are on the table.

We have Records Lists, World Records in Standard Equipment, Weight Classes, all of that stuff to get people in the door and compete. The promoter can choose to use all of these tools how he wishes (to a degree, I will explain).

As NAGS Director, I will ask the promoter to consider these tools. If he does not want to manage the info for all the classes that is fine. He can run the contest with one giant open class, BUT th information must be tracked accurately in order to capture the data for the lists.

With the data, we can still formulate rankings and such. We can still put together totals and push for Elite qualification.

When the day comes where we have 20 people at a show and financially support trophies for all the classes, so be it, but for now, we are in what I see as a stage of refining our sport. The most important thing is the organization and the legitimacy, not the tropheys.

With structure and reason, we make the sport more legitimate.

That is why I see it as a good thing to add a class and to figure out Elite qualifications.

I do not see it as important to have 6 different classes though. That will just have ham and eggers winning first place tropheys that don't mean anything.

Let's do what we can to enter the sport, experience it, and see how much all of us veterans love it and get the new people to stick.

That is how I see it in my head. Hopefully it makes sense to others.

Jedd

[Mikael Siversson]

Attempting a WR is something special and there should be no question that a WR attempt is under way. This was not the case with the 94k class as this class was (is) not globally recognised in the world of grip. Maintaining records list is a huge undertaking and time consuming. I must believe in what I do if I am to keep track of these weight classes. I am happy to hand this over to someone else if you guys insist on recognising Gripmas results as WR's. For someone comming from a country outside of the USA it makes no sense whatsoever elevating the records in a regional, US weight class to the status of World Records. If you want the sport of grip to be accepted globally you have to stop treating it as a US affair.

The problem with that approach is that bodyweights have been recorded for grip competitions every now and again since the introduction of the Europinch standard. We would then have to go back and look at all these contests (= huge amount of work). It would be unfair to dismiss results from these contests (where the body weight were recorded) but approve the Gripmas contests. That's my view. I would prefer if we start on a new page.

If we have the records of those contests, why not count them? How many are we really talking about here?

As far as work, that is the promoter's deal. Chris keeps that info in spreadsheets. Bob, on the other hand, does not keep a laptop running at the contest (at least not at the two shows I attended). Either way, I bet both of them could go back and find this info.

I don't think we should be in such a rush to just cast those records aside.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Mikael Siversson

[andurniat]

I like Eric's idea of using two standards; a national qualifying total and the actual elite. The only thing I'd change would be to leave the 800 fo the 100kg class based on the fact that Adam and Paul, two 100kg guys, already hit the total. I'd prefer to see different events but I have no problem with the 800 poundage.

I also like Eric's ideas. I would continue to keep the Elite total separate for the weight-classes and we will always have those that achieve more, and they will be celebrated as such.

lightweight (82.5): 675 - Nationals qualifier = 607.5#

middleweight (100): 750 - Nat. Qual. = 675#

heavyweight: 800 - Nat. Qual. = 720#

[andurniat]

Instead of having an elite class for each weight-class. How about the light and middle-weight elite guys classing up to the heavier division. They will have proven there ability and it continues to promote growth and strength by all, while moving the top guys along, making room for new.

[climber511]

Instead of having an elite class for each weight-class. How about the light and middle-weight elite guys classing up to the heavier division. They will have proven there ability and it continues to promote growth and strength by all, while moving the top guys along, making room for new.

Jedd is right on the reason behind starting the Elite Class in the first place - but Elite is also a prestige thing as well and those of us in the lighter classes would enjoy a more fair opportunity to achieve such an honor - even it is only a paper honor or leads to a weight class bump come competition time. I still think coming up with appropriate numbers for the classes would be a good thing. to do. I would propose 675 - 733 (just between 675 and 800) - and 800 - all just a hair low perhaps but from what I could find in just a very quick search - would still only allow a very few additional people in at present levels. I believe over time all of these will raise including the 800 number - but we have to start somewhere I guess.

[EricMilfeld]

I am certainly on board with doing all we can to promote our sport and make participation as attractive as possible. There are a lot of concerns to balance: not alienating and intimidating potential participants, garnering recognition for the accomplishments of all, providing a venue (Nationals) for the best of the best to compete head to head, creating classes that level the playing field while at the same time not watering things down to the point where a victory becomes meaningless, etc.

With those things in mind I think Nationals should be simple and straightforward in its concept: the nation's best athletes battling for victory against others of the same approximate size. That is pretty much the mold used by all major sports. I would suggest using all the other local meets to focus on recruitment of new participants with the implementation of beginner divisions and such.

I think the Elite rank should simply be reserved as an accomplishment to be sought after by the very best. Something to be proud of in and of itself. Also, simply qualifying for the nation's premier meet should also be a major accomplishment. The nation's best competing in three weight classes with no additional divisions is simple and pure. Personally, I don't care for an Open and an Elite division at the national meet. I think it's for good reason we don't find many other sports contesting divisions based on anything other than gender, age, or physical size at a national venue (physical and mental handicaps not included). If one athlete happens to create a dynasty within his weight class, I see it as something to be celebrated, not avoided. I believe plenty of exciting drama would unfold as others strive to unseat the current champion, whether successful or not.

Additionally, a ranking of all gripsters (or at least an extensive list) would also serve to increase interest with those already competing as well as those sitting on the sidelines considering it. Perhaps a top fifty list for each of the three weight classes, based on the total of the three major lists. The options are endless for this sort of thing. A guy who doesn't have a snow ball's chance of even qualifying for Nationals could find all the incentive he needs to improve by striving to jump up a spot or two on the rankings list. Things like that are a big part of what keeps the average guy motivated to continue competing. Eventually, larger participation could make state records something of legitimate merit.

[Cannon]

I really like the idea that the Elite total for any class would be a door-opener for Nationals. That alone would have me working like a dog to meet that total and get to every contest I can. I think it would raise the quality of competitor at Nationals as well, for each class. (For example, I'm still not sure I had any business being there last year. I got in on my MM1 cert, but with a contest total at the time in the mid 500s. I am thankful for the opportunity, however, because it was an experience I will never forget!)

Eric and Chris's last posts are great.

[Bill Piche]

Even though I don't compete, I like Eric's post direction wise.

[vikingsrule92]

I will throw my 2 cents in here.

Firstly, I like the idea of 675 for the 82.5k class. I know when I was in my prime in grip I was in that general area and I say this without trying to be arrogant but I think a lot of people considered me somewhat elite for my age and weight. 750 is a good number for 100kg because, as mentioned prior, a few people have already exceeded it.

I like the idea of two numbers, an elite number and a national qualifier number. 90% feels about right for the qualifier.

When it comes to the weight classes themselves it gets really tricky. Obviously grip cannot support 6 classes. Even at the big events this would be ludicrous and it certainly would be at the smaller ones down here in the southwest. What you guys could consider is doing it similar to strongman. There could be 6 classes but only trophies for the top 3 elite and non-elite (Open?) lifters. This would let people still get the feeling of competing in their own class but without the ridiculous trophy expenses. Or you could do the same 6 trophies and do first in each class. The obvious problem with that would be that some people might be competing against themselves. I think this is something that just has to be dealt with in a niche sport until it expands. If we make people compete in Open and Elite classes then why do we have weight classes anyway? Just for the records and nationals? If the bigger contests separate into classes but the smaller don't I feel like thats wrong in some inexplicable way. Plus I know in Strongman there is often one or 2 people in a weight class. At my first contest there was 1 265+ and he just treated it like an expensive and more fun training session, lol.

Lastly, and this is my major point. If I could do this all over again and have my way I feel like we'd be much better off with two weight classes, less than 200 and open. 3 weight classes is just absurd if you ask me, especially when there are so few competitors. David is a great guy and I accept the fact that we've accepted the lightweight division but I just really think David got it wrong and Chris Rice had the right idea. Then we would have 4 total classes at each competition (except nationals, where open is obviously unnecessary) and it would be much more manageable.

[Cannon]

I will throw my 2 cents in here.

Firstly, I like the idea of 675 for the 82.5k class. I know when I was in my prime in grip I was in that general area and I say this without trying to be arrogant but I think a lot of people considered me somewhat elite for my age and weight.

Thanks Derek! Glad to hear more support for a 82.5 number around 675.

[barbe705]

for powerlifting they use that wilkes formula. I think it's just a ratio. could that be applied? how do the PL numbers for elite vary from weight class to class?

[climber511]

http://tsampa.org/training/scripts/relative_strength/

Here is an interesting site to play around with. You can type in pinch (or Elite Total numbers) for example along with someone else's numbers or stats - then your own - and see how it comes out. You can include age or not - and it gives several of the handicap type systems results. Kind of fun to play with. Comparing your self to big Rich on Axle is fun for example.

[Mikael Siversson]

The way I see it with these international weight classes is that it formally recognises outstanding achievements in this sport. Pinching 200 lbs is not an outstanding achievement if you weigh 300 lbs but it is if you weigh 170 lbs. I don't really care that I will be the only one in the 82.5k class in my next competition as my results can and will be compared to those of other 82.5k guys elsewhere. Three weight classes is still way less than what they have in other strength sports. I remember becoming state champion in OL in 1982 or thereabouts. It was me and one other guy competing in that class but I could still compare my results to those of others in the country. There will be more enthusiasm for grip competitions this year than in 2011 as there is a new exiting class filled with extremely strong competitors. With only a 94k class most LW guys would simply give up I think the moment someone like Nick McKinless have a go at the 2HP. He often weighs around 94k and pinches around 110k. You are not really a lightweight person if you weigh 94k. Few people weigh as much as 94k if they are really lean and athletic.

Lastly, and this is my major point. If I could do this all over again and have my way I feel like we'd be much better off with two weight classes, less than 200 and open. 3 weight classes is just absurd if you ask me, especially when there are so few competitors. David is a great guy and I accept the fact that we've accepted the lightweight division but I just really think David got it wrong and Chris Rice had the right idea. Then we would have 4 total classes at each competition (except nationals, where open is obviously unnecessary) and it would be much more manageable.

[climber511]

The way I see it with these international weight classes is that it formally recognises outstanding achievements in this sport. Pinching 200 lbs is not an outstanding achievement if you weigh 300 lbs but it is if you weigh 170 lbs. I don't really care that I will be the only one in the 82.5k class in my next competition as my results can and will be compared to those of other 82.5k guys elsewhere. Three weight classes is still way less than what they have in other strength sports. I remember becoming state champion in OL in 1982 or thereabouts. It was me and one other guy competing in that class but I could still compare my results to those of others in the country. There will be more enthusiasm for grip competitions this year than in 2011 as there is a new exiting class filled with extremely strong competitors. With only a 94k class most LW guys would simply give up I think the moment someone like Nick McKinless have a go at the 2HP. He often weighs around 94k and pinches around 110k. You are not really a lightweight person if you weigh 94k. Few people weigh as much as 94k if they are really lean and athletic.

Lastly, and this is my major point. If I could do this all over again and have my way I feel like we'd be much better off with two weight classes, less than 200 and open. 3 weight classes is just absurd if you ask me, especially when there are so few competitors. David is a great guy and I accept the fact that we've accepted the lightweight division but I just really think David got it wrong and Chris Rice had the right idea. Then we would have 4 total classes at each competition (except nationals, where open is obviously unnecessary) and it would be much more manageable.

There's a lot I don't like about how this was done. But ultimately i think this will be good for the sport in the long run. My 94K class fit the time and purpose when it was implemented and acted to make two divisions - which was all that was warranted at the time - and probably still is right now with the current numbers. But looking to the future I think this will attract new people - as it gives a much more level playing field. Bigger people (disregarding fat people) are simply stronger in general than smaller people and results of other strength sports as well as grip certainly bear that out. Something i intend to do is put together all the results set under the 94K class limit - I will hope than they might be posted and saved the same way weight class information has been saved in Olympic lifting after weight classes were changed. I feel this is only fair to those people who played by the rules in place at the time - no records requested or claimed - just information for the future

Edited December 31, 2011 by climber511

[jad]

The way I see it with these international weight classes is that it formally recognises outstanding achievements in this sport. Pinching 200 lbs is not an outstanding achievement if you weigh 300 lbs but it is if you weigh 170 lbs. I don't really care that I will be the only one in the 82.5k class in my next competition as my results can and will be compared to those of other 82.5k guys elsewhere. Three weight classes is still way less than what they have in other strength sports. I remember becoming state champion in OL in 1982 or thereabouts. It was me and one other guy competing in that class but I could still compare my results to those of others in the country. There will be more enthusiasm for grip competitions this year than in 2011 as there is a new exiting class filled with extremely strong competitors. With only a 94k class most LW guys would simply give up I think the moment someone like Nick McKinless have a go at the 2HP. He often weighs around 94k and pinches around 110k. You are not really a lightweight person if you weigh 94k. Few people weigh as much as 94k if they are really lean and athletic.

Lastly, and this is my major point. If I could do this all over again and have my way I feel like we'd be much better off with two weight classes, less than 200 and open. 3 weight classes is just absurd if you ask me, especially when there are so few competitors. David is a great guy and I accept the fact that we've accepted the lightweight division but I just really think David got it wrong and Chris Rice had the right idea. Then we would have 4 total classes at each competition (except nationals, where open is obviously unnecessary) and it would be much more manageable.

There's a lot I don't like about how this was done. But ultimately i think this will be good for the sport in the long run. My 94K class fit the time and purpose when it was implemented and acted to make two divisions - which was all that was warranted at the time - and probably still is right now with the current numbers. But looking to the future I think this will attract new people - as it gives a much more level playing field. Bigger people (disregarding fat people) are simply stronger in general than smaller people and results of other strength sports as well as grip certainly bear that out. Something i intend to do is put together all the results set under the 94K class limit - I will hope than they might be posted and saved the same way weight class information has been saved in Olympic lifting after weight classes were changed. I feel this is only fair to those people who played by the rules in place at the time - no records requested or claimed - just information for the future

That's a great idea!

[Paul Knight]

I think "Grip" can support many more weight classes than 6 ..... but I don't think a grip contest could.

In other words: A contest could be organized however the promoter decides. However, each competitor is still weighed and put in a weight class that is not necessarily associated with the contest, but is associated with records lists ( and I'm thinking it would be good to have housed on NAGS). The contest promotor could still entice competitors to compete in their contest with a novice, open & Elite class and present awards to their contest classes accordingly, instead of having to provide 30 different trophies because there are so many classes. At the same time the competitors can simultaniously be competing for placement on the records lists. I'm a BJJ fan and NAGA is a popular Jiu-Jitsu tournament because if you compete in it, you can get "Ranked". And there are other Jiu-Jitsu tournaments that report to "Ranked" as well. Everyone wants to compete in these contests so that they can improve there rankings. Basically we already have the Top 50 List for Euro that is organized like this, but without classes and we don't have a list for axle. That being said, if there were a site like NAGS or at least a site that has NAGS blessing, it could maintain a records list of all the classes and all the events that would be the ultimate place to go to if trying to find out the who's who in grip.

For example: At the Metroflex comp we are having a 82.5kg class, a 100kg class and heavy weight. We will be giving an award to 1st, 2nd and 3rd place for each class, so we will have 3 first place winners. What if we had a competitor that weighed 230lbs and he got last place in the heavy weight class because he was competing against Rich Williams and Brian Shaw. Well, if we had the records lists in place he could still set a record in the 2HP or axle because there may be a 115kg class for the records lists? as long as each contest classified all the contestants and reported their weight and lifts. Make sense?

[climber511]

I think "Grip" can support many more weight classes than 6 ..... but I don't think a grip contest could.

In other words: A contest could be organized however the promoter decides. However, each competitor is still weighed and put in a weight class that is not necessarily associated with the contest, but is associated with records lists ( and I'm thinking it would be good to have housed on NAGS). The contest promotor could still entice competitors to compete in their contest with a novice, open & Elite class and present awards to their contest classes accordingly, instead of having to provide 30 different trophies because there are so many classes. At the same time the competitors can simultaniously be competing for placement on the records lists. I'm a BJJ fan and NAGA is a popular Jiu-Jitsu tournament because if you compete in it, you can get "Ranked". And there are other Jiu-Jitsu tournaments that report to "Ranked" as well. Everyone wants to compete in these contests so that they can improve there rankings. Basically we already have the Top 50 List for Euro that is organized like this, but without classes and we don't have a list for axle. That being said, if there were a site like NAGS or at least a site that has NAGS blessing, it could maintain a records list of all the classes and all the events that would be the ultimate place to go to if trying to find out the who's who in grip.

For example: At the Metroflex comp we are having a 82.5kg class, a 100kg class and heavy weight. We will be giving an award to 1st, 2nd and 3rd place for each class, so we will have 3 first place winners. What if we had a competitor that weighed 230lbs and he got last place in the heavy weight class because he was competing against Rich Williams and Brian Shaw. Well, if we had the records lists in place he could still set a record in the 2HP or axle because there may be a 115kg class for the records lists? as long as each contest classified all the contestants and reported their weight and lifts. Make sense?

This is the best solution I have heard yet. Down the road people will be able to actually compare themselves to others their same size. It wouldn't be difficult either to just include age in that as well - not as separate classes but just as information for the future. Who knows - maybe some day there will be another guy my age willing to play.