Elite Status For The 82.5 Division

[Mikael Siversson]

Another problem with recognising results for new weight classes retrospectively is that the scale used may not have been calibrated at the time of the weigh in. They are pretty strict with that in PL and OL.

[Mikael Siversson]

...and yet another problem would then be that we would have two different starting point rules for the two new weightclasses; clean sheet for the 82.5k class but recognition of old results (with people, in most cases, weighed on non-calibrated scales) for the 100k class.

Outstanding results from competitions held years ago will still show up in the all-time-high top50 list for the 2HP.

[Mikael Siversson]

I think the competition would be intense in the 100k class. It will probably be adopted in the UK as well if it gets broad support elsewhere. There are plenty of very, very strong guys in the 2HP for example that would easily be able to compete in a 100k class (Nick McKinless, David Horne, Adam, etc). Three weight classes is all we need I think as the correlation in some grip events between strength and body weight is not as marked as it is in PL and OL, both of which have rather numerous weight classes.

[climber511]

I'm good with that (sort of) - I was just hoping my results might be included in a weight class I have fought so long and hard to establish - at my age they will probably be the best results I will ever obtain and I have always hoped to be compared to what I think of as my peers and not just to the "monsters". And all Gripmas weigh ins were done on a scale calibrated using the method Mikael talked about of putting calibrated plates onto the scale and using the 181 and in my case 207# points as calibrated points. Which still leaves 13# to work with.

So it appears we are in agreement on the establishment of a 100K - 220# class? We still have the original question though of Elite status totals to agree on for the 3 classes. So what do you all think?

725 - 750 - 800? Or something else? Or the use of additional lifts etc to determine an Elite status? Discussion?

[Cannon]

So it appears we are in agreement on the establishment of a 100K - 220# class? We still have the original question though of Elite status totals to agree on for the 3 classes. So what do you all think?

725 - 750 - 800? Or something else? Or the use of additional lifts etc to determine an Elite status? Discussion?

I personally like those totals for the three classes. I think 725 is good for 82.5.

That might look something like a 160+ gripper, 200+ 2HP, and that still leaves a 365+ axle. That's pretty darn demanding for practically anyone in the class, save for a couple beasts who deserve Elite status anyway.

As before, I would love to see more ways to get in--even if much of my motivation is selfish. At 160#, a 365# axle lift would not be a grip event for me at all. The much bigger issue would be lifting that amount of weight.

What's the heaviest contest axle lift for the 82.5 class so far? I think Ryan Pitts pulled 300 at the Fall Decathlon. That's just the only lift I know about.

[andurniat]

Sorry for the late jump in. I'm in favor of the 100kg class and can easily have this at this years Nationals, June 9. I like the 3 lift total (gripper, 2hp, axle) for Elite, with the inclusion of the weight classes I think we will see a return of the axle in comps because before weightclass's it was dominated by the big-guys and people got tired of that.

[AdamTGlass]

Sorry for the late jump in. I'm in favor of the 100kg class and can easily have this at this years Nationals, June 9. I like the 3 lift total (gripper, 2hp, axle) for Elite, with the inclusion of the weight classes I think we will see a return of the axle in comps because before weightclass's it was dominated by the big-guys and people got tired of that.

Axle has been contested in my contests now a total of 6 times in 14 months (events held after WSH plus Decathlons) and will remain, regardless of WR status.

Andrew pointed this out a while back- for the longest time DO Axle DL was considered a staple grip event, a true test of grip. Then the record went way up there and all of sudden it's no longer a good grip event, its all a hand size dependent.

[Mikael Siversson]

It is not a good event, in my view, unless you do have weightclasses. An 82.5k guy with an elite grip relative to other 82.5k guys will get stemrolled in the axle against 300-400lbs guys with strong hands. He might beat them in grippers but certainly not in the axle lift. With weightclasses, on the other hand, it is a great test of grip and wrist strength. However it requires back strength as well which is not needed in other lifts. I would have to look very closely at my bodyweight if I started doing any deadlifting as I am right at the 82.5k limit already.

Andrew pointed this out a while back- for the longest time DO Axle DL was considered a staple grip event, a true test of grip. Then the record went way up there and all of sudden it's no longer a good grip event, its all a hand size dependent.

[Mikael Siversson]

I fully understand what you are saying but there is no tradition of incorporating old weightclass divisions into new ones as far as I know. David did not do that with the 82.5k class. For the new 100k class (and the other weight classes) I think it is appropriate to record people's age (if they agree) in top50 lists, once they have reached say 60 years or so. This would represent an official record of outstanding achievements and a target to aim for once people reach that age.

I'm good with that (sort of) - I was just hoping my results might be included in a weight class I have fought so long and hard to establish - at my age they will probably be the best results I will ever obtain and I have always hoped to be compared to what I think of as my peers and not just to the "monsters". And all Gripmas weigh ins were done on a scale calibrated using the method Mikael talked about of putting calibrated plates onto the scale and using the 181 and in my case 207# points as calibrated points. Which still leaves 13# to work with.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Mikael Siversson

[climber511]

I freely admit I like a third weight class in grip. But it’s funny that Bob Lipinski – Zack Coulter and I have held a 94k weight class for at least four years now and it doesn’t count for anything – no records – results all gone – just like it never happened. But you, Mikael, and I talked the idea up on a forum with no real discussion – no history etc – or with anyone else and now it seems we have another class. It seems like a very strange way to do business I guess. The lack of some type of more formal organizational structure is going to continue to haunt us until such exists I think. Three guys on a forum shouldn’t be able to do something like this. If we truly want the respect of other strength sport people – we really need to do better than this. And hell – I like what we seem to be doing here. I can’t imagine how I’d feel if I disagreed with it.

[Mikael Siversson]

The 94k class was invented by one individual. I was later adopted in parts of one country. Why should results from this, and let's be honest, local weight class form the base of a new international weight class? Why should the introduction of a second new weight class not conform to the starting point standard of the other, LW class? Why should records set in a local/regionally used weight class suddenly be given the status of WR's?

I remember having discussions with David Horne back in 2003/2004 about the introduction of new standards in the pinch and vbar. The concensus from those discussions was that it would never be done if every man, woman and child had their say. We took a gamble one could argue as there was no guarantee anyone else would accept the new standard. Same with Jedd's introduction of the 16.5'' lifting height in the 2HP. No voting no nothing. David did not like it initially whereas I did. In the end it became a recognised world standard. Had we let everyone had their say on the lifting height we would still be arguing.

Your 94k class never achieved international status whereas David's 82.5k class did. Not my fault really. The 100k class has plenty of history and I am not surprised that it is met with some enthusiasm on the Gripboard.

I will start keeping track of records in a new 100k class for the Perth competitions and anyone interested can join in if they want.

I freely admit I like a third weight class in grip. But it’s funny that Bob Lipinski – Zack Coulter and I have held a 94k weight class for at least four years now and it doesn’t count for anything – no records – results all gone – just like it never happened. But you, Mikael, and I talked the idea up on a forum with no real discussion – no history etc – or with anyone else and now it seems we have another class. It seems like a very strange way to do business I guess. The lack of some type of more formal organizational structure is going to continue to haunt us until such exists I think. Three guys on a forum shouldn’t be able to do something like this. If we truly want the respect of other strength sport people – we really need to do better than this. And hell – I like what we seem to be doing here. I can’t imagine how I’d feel if I disagreed with it.

[Mikael Siversson]

We have tried a few times and the result is always the same; epic fail. I very much doubt I would have been able to push through the calibration requirement if we had had a formal commitee. I would not even had been elected to take part in discussions in the first place. You don't win popularity contests by introducing a bit of order into a back yard sport.

The lack of some type of more formal organizational structure is going to continue to haunt us until such exists I think.

[Mikael Siversson]

I still have not said anything about the plastic spacers for the Euro pinch after it was introduced (I said plenty before though). You were quite specific that I should be kept outside of that discussion in spite of the fact that I was one of the two people introducing the Euro pinch standard...

But you, Mikael, and I talked the idea up on a forum with no real discussion – no history etc – or with anyone else and now it seems we have another class. It seems like a very strange way to do business I guess.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Mikael Siversson

[climber511]

It appears the end results are that we now have 82.5K – 100K – and an Open and Elite class in Grip Sport – for this I am very happy.

It appears we also have plastic spacers and a new bar assembly allowed in the 2 HP event – at least in the United States – the new setup used at Gripmas was made by Sean Dockery and approved for use by Jedd and Andrew. It seemed very well accepted – and for this I am happy. It greatly speeds up a nearly perfect event that just took way too long with .the current methodology if one had a large number of competitors.

The rest is just the normal forum stuff.

[Mikael Siversson]

Having seen the set up on youtube clips (the plastic spacers) I give it my blessing (not that anyone cares). My main concern was that the material would have a higher density than rubber.

It appears the end results are that we now have 82.5K – 100K – and an Open and Elite class in Grip Sport – for this I am very happy.

It appears we also have plastic spacers and a new bar assembly allowed in the 2 HP event – at least in the United States – the new setup used at Gripmas was made by Sean Dockery and approved for use by Jedd and Andrew. It seemed very well accepted – and for this I am happy. It greatly speeds up a nearly perfect event that just took way too long with .the current methodology if one had a large number of competitors.

The rest is just the normal forum stuff.

[climber511]

Have we ever answered the original question of what is Elite for the different classes?

82.5 = ?

100 = ?

Open = 800#

[Cannon]

I liked these:

82.5 = 725

100 = 750

Open = 800

I wish more 82.5 guys would "weigh in" but I think 725 is damn hard for someone who weighs 181 max. Weigh any less and it gets harder.

[Mikael Siversson]

Never tried the axle. I have pulled 210lbs on the RT (old handle).

[AdamTGlass]

I liked these:

82.5 = 725

100 = 750

Open = 800

I wish more 82.5 guys would "weigh in" but I think 725 is damn hard for someone who weighs 181 max. Weigh any less and it gets harder.

Matt I will pull some numbers from my last few contests of guys in the 82.5 round about area and see what the averages are. Here are some numbers from the Nov contest

Matt Cannon 573.01

Ryan J Pitts 624.8

Dustin Williams 543.72

Nick Saari 412

Josh Feeeman 403

David Dellanave 558

I will go back and look in May

I agree 725 is a pretty high mark

So far only a few of the 82.5 guys have pinched over body weight. that leaves a lot of gap to cover. Lets also assume the lifter is pulling X2 BW on the axle, which very few people are doing, 190+370, that still leaves a 175 for the gripper. Someone who can pull out these numbers (Dan) is def Elite for their weight class...but they won't have anyone to lift against. The bar can start lower and be raised later. It would be better to have a lower mark, and have a class of people who are competing against each other rather than a high mark, a few guys with a cool title, and no to lift against.

Looking back at the same sample I just posted- with Pitts being the closet to a 725 mark, it could take him another 3 years to pick up that extra 100 lbs. How many people have added 100 lbs to their total in the last year?

it will be a hard number to nail down without comments from the people in the class. I would like to see 30-40 people in this weight class test out their 2HP, Gripper, and axle and post the number. it would be pretty useful.

Edited December 29, 2011 by AdamTGlass

[AdamTGlass]

I liked these:

82.5 = 725

100 = 750

Open = 800

I wish more 82.5 guys would "weigh in" but I think 725 is damn hard for someone who weighs 181 max. Weigh any less and it gets harder.

Matt I will pull some numbers from my last few contests of guys in the 82.5 round about area and see what the averages are. Here are some numbers from the Nov contest

Matt Cannon 573.01

Ryan J Pitts 624.8

Dustin Williams 543.72

Nick Saari 412

Josh Feeeman 403

David Dellanave 558

I will go back and look in May

I agree 725 is a pretty high mark

So far only a few of the 82.5 guys have pinched over body weight. that leaves a lot of gap to cover. Lets also assume the lifter is pulling X2 BW on the axle, which very few people are doing, 190+370, that still leaves a 175 for the gripper. Someone who can pull out these numbers (Dan) is def Elite for their weight class...but they won't have anyone to lift against. The bar can start lower and be raised later. It would be better to have a lower mark, and have a class of people who are competing against each other rather than a high mark, a few guys with a cool title, and no to lift against.

Looking back at the same sample I just posted- with Pitts being the closet to a 725 mark, it could take him another 3 years to pick up that extra 100 lbs. How many people have added 100 lbs to their total in the last year?

it will be a hard number to nail down without comments from the people in the class. I would like to see 30-40 people in this weight class test out their 2HP, Gripper, and axle and post the number. it would be pretty useful.

[Jedd Johnson]

I freely admit I like a third weight class in grip. But it’s funny that Bob Lipinski – Zack Coulter and I have held a 94k weight class for at least four years now and it doesn’t count for anything – no records – results all gone – just like it never happened. But you, Mikael, and I talked the idea up on a forum with no real discussion – no history etc – or with anyone else and now it seems we have another class. It seems like a very strange way to do business I guess. The lack of some type of more formal organizational structure is going to continue to haunt us until such exists I think. Three guys on a forum shouldn’t be able to do something like this. If we truly want the respect of other strength sport people – we really need to do better than this. And hell – I like what we seem to be doing here. I can’t imagine how I’d feel if I disagreed with it.

What exactly was the reasoning for choosing 94kg?

[Jedd Johnson]

Here is a suggestion for the Elite totals. What if we went with proportional numbers?

So, we have weight classes of 82.5-kg, 100kg and heavyweight.

What if we took the average of the current Elite lifters and based the numbers for the other weight classes elite status around a proportionate number?

For instance, my guess is that the average weight is around 264 of the Elite lifters.

So 264 :: 800

We could then find the proportionate values for 82.5 kg and 100kg

82.5kg / 181.88 lbs :: +/- 551 lbs

100kg / 220.46 lbs :: +/- 668 lbs

Just an idea.

Jedd

By the way, if we don't discuss topics via a forum, how will we discuss them?

[jad]

Well, I for one would actually be interested in Elite status if it's for weight classes. I never could get too excited about maybe eeking out an 800 which would earn me the right to finish last to all the 250#+, 9" handed monsters. Getting that "Elite" status at a given weight akin to PL, is a cool idea though

[climber511]

I freely admit I like a third weight class in grip. But it’s funny that Bob Lipinski – Zack Coulter and I have held a 94k weight class for at least four years now and it doesn’t count for anything – no records – results all gone – just like it never happened. But you, Mikael, and I talked the idea up on a forum with no real discussion – no history etc – or with anyone else and now it seems we have another class. It seems like a very strange way to do business I guess. The lack of some type of more formal organizational structure is going to continue to haunt us until such exists I think. Three guys on a forum shouldn’t be able to do something like this. If we truly want the respect of other strength sport people – we really need to do better than this. And hell – I like what we seem to be doing here. I can’t imagine how I’d feel if I disagreed with it.

What exactly was the reasoning for choosing 94kg?

Jedd - when I decided to have a separate class to divide Gripmas was the year I had 25 or so competitors. My goal was to try for an even division into two classes. So I simply figured out the average or mean (maths not my thing) weight and used that as a division. It came out at the 94K - 207+# mark - and thus was born a 94K class for Gripmas. Over the years it has been a pretty fair division as far as cutting the field into two parts. And it probably still is if the goal is two classes. I imagine you could take the weights of a bunch of the normal players that attend contests and divide it mathematically into thirds if you wanted to but if probably isn't worth the trouble really.

[bencrush]

Here is a suggestion for the Elite totals. What if we went with proportional numbers?

So, we have weight classes of 82.5-kg, 100kg and heavyweight.

What if we took the average of the current Elite lifters and based the numbers for the other weight classes elite status around a proportionate number?

For instance, my guess is that the average weight is around 264 of the Elite lifters.

So 264 :: 800

We could then find the proportionate values for 82.5 kg and 100kg

82.5kg / 181.88 lbs :: +/- 551 lbs

100kg / 220.46 lbs :: +/- 668 lbs

Just an idea.

Jedd

By the way, if we don't discuss topics via a forum, how will we discuss them?

Excellent suggestions Jedd! It'll always be hard to start HIGH and then try to go lower. Definitely easier to throw out a number and then raise it later if it's needed. 82.5kg weight class is a great idea and I like it. But you've also got to look at how many guys are actually competing in that weight class. Then if we make the Elite status so high that only a handful of guys are achieving it - that's okay. But it also means there will then be TWO 82.5kg weight classes in contests. Elite and the other guys. So the Elite guys would often be competing against just themselves. You could throw them in with the other guys too - which would happen.

I know most guys are set on the 2HP + Axle + Gripper number being the only three events that can be totaled for Elite status. But I think there is a good number of guys who would be interested in other events being considered for Elite status. That being said, I understand the absurdity if we go with too many events. Or events that most don't have access to. Or events like hammer levering that most can't agree on what would be an Elite status on them.

I will never hit Elite status with my back the way it has been the past year. And I'm completely fine with that because I'm not going to push it - it's just not worth it to me. There are other guys who I think it's a shame because barring their tweaked or trick backs they would nail the Elite status.

Plateau Buster Deadlift would be an interesting one to have an Elite qualifier status for. Maybe 440 for 220lbs and under. 600 for open weights. And 375 for 82.5kg guys. Just throwing that out there.

Vertical bar numbers would be another one that would garner some interest from a lot of guys. 2" especially, but maybe 1" numbers too for Elite status. Maybe 225 for 82.5kg guys. 275 for 100kg guys. And 300 for open weight guys.