Cannon Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I don't think it would be cheapening Elite status to have a different qualifier based on weight or hand size, especially if it's an actual established separate class at NAGS-sanctioned events. At that point it makes sense that there would be a different qualifier under the same logic used to support the need for a separate class. I agree 100%... If there was a new division established tomorrow for example an under 7.75" hand size division.. then ya.. why not have their Elite Total be #600? Or even somthing like 700 instead of 800. Just slightly lower. I would say for either 7.75" hands OR <182 bodyweight, 700 would be a sick but attainable total. Maybe a 350 axle, 165 gripper, 185 2HP as an example. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico300zx Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Ben, I thought u had to qualify for elite each year? I still think the same guys would be on the list any way. But someone did bring up a good point about not seeing all the events despite going to several contests. Also, it seems only the guys who are not elite are weighing in on this, lets hear more from our elite contenders please Parris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 I don't think it would be cheapening Elite status to have a different qualifier based on weight or hand size, especially if it's an actual established separate class at NAGS-sanctioned events. At that point it makes sense that there would be a different qualifier under the same logic used to support the need for a separate class. I agree 100%... If there was a new division established tomorrow for example an under 7.75" hand size division.. then ya.. why not have their Elite Total be #600? My hands are 7 5/8" - I'm 6'2" tall - BW is 202# (92K) - age 62 My best contest lifts are MMS Grippers - 156# Pinch - 231# Axle - 353# Total - 740# I don't think these are Elite lifts - perhaps the Pinch might be for a lightweight or small hands guy but my grippers are weak and my axle is only average for my weight or hand size. So I think 600# for Elite is way too low. From looking at what a guy on Social Security like me can do - I have to wonder is 800# might prove over time to be too low for large handed super heavyweights. For now it seems right but in the future it will probably have to be raised. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel reinard Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I agree 100%... If there was a new division established tomorrow for example an under 7.75" hand size division.. then ya.. why not have their Elite Total be #600? Im totally with you on this one, Jedd... Even 500lbs is NOT that serious in terms of Deadlifting. There are tons of guys out there that can walk in off the street and hit a 500lb deadlift. A lot of guys under 200lbs. IMO The DOH Axle deadlift is nothing but a test of Grip Strength... If you are able to grip more than your back will allow you to pick up, then you have a maaaaajor imbalance lol. If that class is the case I fall into the 600# Elite easily. I'm a noob with under 10 months grip experience and have never been to a comp. And my grip is only a knat's butt behind my DLs. Keep in mind many strong and light grip guys out there never touch weights, and I highly doubt a sub 200# dude can DL 500# off the streets. Maybe I'm an exception to these but I hope I can speak for most rock climbers that their grip will always be way ahead of their DLs and hand sizes. Maybe 700# total for light guys is better? That'd be like a 350# axle, 160# gripper, 190# 2HP. And looking at it now I'm only 40# off from the 700#. And I'm no Elite by any means. I agree hand size has more to do with grip than body weight, so does hand shape. Sausage fingers or long bony ones will have different strengths and weakness. IMO I can't justify a lightweight Elite class. Some light guys are getting close and I think when some break through into the big boy class more will follow. I think a lightweight Open class will be enough to get more in the sport and competing, with the eventual progression into Elite. The WSH 82.5k class is going to be exciting. I really think some light guys are going to put up big numbers. Kerr, Graybill, Sundin...me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I don't think it would be cheapening Elite status to have a different qualifier based on weight or hand size, especially if it's an actual established separate class at NAGS-sanctioned events. At that point it makes sense that there would be a different qualifier under the same logic used to support the need for a separate class. I agree 100%... If there was a new division established tomorrow for example an under 7.75" hand size division.. then ya.. why not have their Elite Total be #600? My hands are 7 5/8" - I'm 6'2" tall - BW is 202# (92K) - age 62 My best contest lifts are MMS Grippers - 156# Pinch - 231# Axle - 353# Total - 740# I don't think these are Elite lifts - perhaps the Pinch might be for a lightweight or small hands guy but my grippers are weak and my axle is only average for my weight or hand size. So I think 600# for Elite is way too low. From looking at what a guy on Social Security like me can do - I have to wonder is 800# might prove over time to be too low for large handed super heavyweights. For now it seems right but in the future it will probably have to be raised. Good example. See, I'm flip-flopping on this now. I think bodyweight does play a significant role. I do like the 82.5kg weight class idea a lot. I don't know what to think about the Elite total. I am going to sit back and watch the discussion at this point, as I don't think I have much to contribute anyway. Good stuff guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 That means someone like Mobster would probably kick my ass in grip at 82.5k across the board as his hands are larger than mine. Imagine him having a go at 115-120k in the 2HP weighing 82.5k. It would go nowhere and he knows it. I agree hand size has more to do with grip than body weight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Isn't the idea of Elite Status to capture those guys who are the "best" under the current structure of the sport, regardles of what "advantages" they may have that have contributed towards getting them there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I remember competing against Martin Arildsson when he weighed around 190lbs or thereabouts. Did not have too many problems beating him and, from memory, my hands are larger than his. A few years later, weighing in at 300+lbs he had transformed into an absolute monster in (natural I must emphasise) grip strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 A few things. Once you total elite, if you compete in a sanctioned contest once a year, you stay elite. I don't know how this is done in other sports, and I don't really care, but that is how we are doing it. It may not be on the GripSport.org site, but it can be added. Also, I am pretty sure Paul Knight is either Elite or very close. He may have inadvertently been left off the list. He either meets or exceeds me in Axle, is light years ahead of me in Grippers and is around 230 in Pinch. What size are his hands? Ross - you are freak straight from the streets. I don't care if you can learn about Grip Sport on Monday and qualify on Saturday. Freak is Freak. And you are Freak. Freak often = Elite. That's all there is to it. Andrew is the same deal = Freak. Matt - Don't think you don't deserve a spot at Nationals because of how you qualified. With different circumstances and more contests you probably would have qualified anyway. Chris - your numbers show exactly why we should be doing all of this with hand size divisions, my friend. If we were, we could have as large of implements as possible and there would be no worry. You are 6 foot 2 - your frame could easily carry 250. Your hand size doesn't change with age, weight gain, etc. That is the next thing we need to talk about in a separate thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Jedd makes an excellent point about spinning our wheels and creating and "elite" loser. IMO there are two different view points going on here. One: these guys are looking at elite like a cert or something for their grip resume. They know earning "elite" isn't going to make them more competitive with the current top dogs. Two: these guys are looking at elite as a feeder system to encourage growth of the sport. By placing the elites in their own category, it would encourage more people to compete. I guess we need to decide what the goal is; growth or prestige? If it's prestige, we could leave it as is or even go with the 6/10 lifts. It doesn't really matter; it's all impressive. If it's growth; the elite requirements as is do nothing to address bodyweight and/or handsize complaints. If Chris has an epiphany and learns how to set grippers and adds 30# to his gripper and trains his axle and adds a few # and is all of sudden an elite, he's still competing against mostly heavyweights. A 180 gripper, a 230ish pinch and even a 400# axle will still have him struggling to make the top 5 in the elites. However, he'd be tough to beat with those numbers at 94kg or <7.75" hands or whatever we decide the cut off is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Love Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 If that class is the case I fall into the 600# Elite easily. I'm a noob with under 10 months grip experience and have never been to a comp. And my grip is only a knat's butt behind my DLs. Keep in mind many strong and light grip guys out there never touch weights, and I highly doubt a sub 200# dude can DL 500# off the streets. Maybe I'm an exception to these but I hope I can speak for most rock climbers that their grip will always be way ahead of their DLs and hand sizes. Maybe I wasnt clear enough... When I said "a guy off the street" I was simply implying that a 500lb Deadlift these days is very light. So for your hands to be stronger than your back.. to me.. means you have a serious imbalance in strength. Easy way to fix it though... just workout other things than your grip? lol I guess I havent been around long enough yet.. but it seems to me like a lot of guys train grip ONLY.. As in there are no accessory lifts to their routine. I can promise you that the Elite guys are NOT training Grip Only.. For example Chad and Andrew both do Strongman or Strongman type training. I would say the only reason I have had the little success I have had in grip has been because the rest of my body is strong... not because I ever practiced my grip directly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Isn't the idea of Elite Status to capture those guys who are the "best" under the current structure of the sport, regardles of what "advantages" they may have that have contributed towards getting them there? Manny Paquio is as elite as it gets and has many natural advantages but would get destroyed by any pro heavyweight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I don't think it would be cheapening Elite status to have a different qualifier based on weight or hand size, especially if it's an actual established separate class at NAGS-sanctioned events. At that point it makes sense that there would be a different qualifier under the same logic used to support the need for a separate class. I agree 100%... If there was a new division established tomorrow for example an under 7.75" hand size division.. then ya.. why not have their Elite Total be #600? My hands are 7 5/8" - I'm 6'2" tall - BW is 202# (92K) - age 62 My best contest lifts are MMS Grippers - 156# Pinch - 231# Axle - 353# Total - 740# I don't think these are Elite lifts - perhaps the Pinch might be for a lightweight or small hands guy but my grippers are weak and my axle is only average for my weight or hand size. So I think 600# for Elite is way too low. From looking at what a guy on Social Security like me can do - I have to wonder is 800# might prove over time to be too low for large handed super heavyweights. For now it seems right but in the future it will probably have to be raised. Chris, to the best of my knowledge, only Eric M. is ahead of you on the axle "list" as far as those with 7.75" hands or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acorn Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Nice idea. All systems will have some flaws and our debate will rage on. I do believe that 2 of the Big 3 lifts need to be present at a contest to be sanctioned? or am I mistaken? I can see dividing the axle and 2hp numbers by 2 for the total. That way we maintain the Big 3 for crushing, pinch and support grip, but allow for single arm events on those same devices. Either way, the same guys will be totaling Elite. I will also throw into the debate mix the thought of having poundage numbers for the Novice and Open classes. If Elite is 800#. Is Open class - 600# and Novice anything under that? I have hosted 2 competitions that were geared towards the novice athletes and I am seeing some tremendous numbers put up by 'Novices'. If we have a level, that if attained, qualifies you for Open and you then do not get a full year to remain Novice. Does this make sense? Andrew, I think at one time, this was suggested, however, many do not have Euros or Axles so it was scrapped and I asked promoters to send me their events and rules to make sure it all fell in line with the general idea of what we were looking for. Right... Am I the only one that sees it that way? Seems to me that would be the ONLY way to do it?... Unless your trying to keep a short list. Ex: Im a decent DOH Deadlifter... but Paul Knight is an exceptional crusher.. How would you penalize him? For grip, my thought is you should not make any lift such that the limiting factor is the ability to deadlift the weight and not grip strength ability. That's not what is being tested. Just my 2 cents. Dennis Rodgers comes to mind. Tommy Heslep is another that comes to mind who has a heck of a grip and the ability to deadlift a big weight as a test of grip strength is probably not a level playing field. Even with weight classes although that helps some IMO. Is 400-lbs really that heavy of a deadlift though Bill? It doesn't seem that heavy for most people's bodies to lift that. Hellishly tough to hold onto for an Axle, but as far the back is concerned, I just don't see it??? My back is fragile as glass these days and the 400-410 range is not only my best Axle lift but also my max on the regular bar due to my back. My best 1 hand Axle lift is 225. If the back were not an issue I'm pretty sure I could pull 425+. As it is, it took me about 9 months of focused training just to go from 385 - 405. When I was younger and my back was not all busted up I clean and jerked more than I can DL now. So I would say that yes a bad back can be an issue, but if you want to win bad enough you will still bust your butt for it and train to do so. - Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tukkergrip Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 That means someone like Mobster would probably kick my ass in grip at 82.5k across the board as his hands are larger than mine. Imagine him having a go at 115-120k in the 2HP weighing 82.5k. It would go nowhere and he knows it. I agree hand size has more to do with grip than body weight... IMO I too think that handsize plays much more of a role in grip than bodyweight. You don't have to be a 600+ pound haystacks calhoun like guy to deadlift a 400 axle OH. Anyway I think that squatting and bench pressing ability has more to do with bodyweight than deadlift abilty. Just look at a light strongman for example @190 pounds many can still deadlift 600pounds. And big guys dieting down to half there weight doesn't make any sense if their BF not really high, as they would lose muscle and strength and everything. Besides, many of us can lose weight and gain weight easily, just like muscle mass, or even deadlift ability @ the same weight.... I would be for handsize divisions too, something like under 7.5-8 and over it. Weight class divisions would not make much sense I think, unless you do things like the 40<kg class the 40+ class as I will not see 40< guys lifting much :P. But with normal weight classes like the 200< and 200+ pound classes. I think that some 190 pounds guy will axle huge weights because large hands and strong (supporting) grip and no back problems and some 300+ pound guys too because the same thing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Isn't the idea of Elite Status to capture those guys who are the "best" under the current structure of the sport, regardles of what "advantages" they may have that have contributed towards getting them there? Manny Paquio is as elite as it gets and has many natural advantages but would get destroyed by any pro heavyweight. Jad, We're seeing the same thing but looking at it from completely different angles, because the last part of your sentence is my point. I understand having weight classes in combat sports for safety reasons - in other sports not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel reinard Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 If that class is the case I fall into the 600# Elite easily. I'm a noob with under 10 months grip experience and have never been to a comp. And my grip is only a knat's butt behind my DLs. Keep in mind many strong and light grip guys out there never touch weights, and I highly doubt a sub 200# dude can DL 500# off the streets. Maybe I'm an exception to these but I hope I can speak for most rock climbers that their grip will always be way ahead of their DLs and hand sizes. Maybe I wasnt clear enough... When I said "a guy off the street" I was simply implying that a 500lb Deadlift these days is very light. So for your hands to be stronger than your back.. to me.. means you have a serious imbalance in strength. Easy way to fix it though... just workout other things than your grip? lol I guess I havent been around long enough yet.. but it seems to me like a lot of guys train grip ONLY.. As in there are no accessory lifts to their routine. I can promise you that the Elite guys are NOT training Grip Only.. For example Chad and Andrew both do Strongman or Strongman type training. I would say the only reason I have had the little success I have had in grip has been because the rest of my body is strong... not because I ever practiced my grip directly. Yeah, I took it as off the street. My bad. If you get a chance take a trip to a rock climbing gym. There's a whole lot of grip training and probably close to zero weight training going on. I'm probably the only guy DLing over 400# where I go. All those guys are about pound per pound strength. Stuff like squats and DLs do nothing for climbers but slow them down. I always wanted to stay under 170# for climbing until recently I wanted to try 180#. Those 10# mattered, but I'm ok with the difference since climbing is less important right now. As it more relates to ELITE gripsters, someone should probably be hitting weights if they want to compete but I don't see why anyone needs to be over 200# to do so. I think the Kinney theory is all that is needed to spark grip growth. Actual pounds of muscle aren't as important IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Isn't the idea of Elite Status to capture those guys who are the "best" under the current structure of the sport, regardles of what "advantages" they may have that have contributed towards getting them there? Manny Paquio is as elite as it gets and has many natural advantages but would get destroyed by any pro heavyweight. Jad, We're seeing the same thing but looking at it from completely different angles, because the last part of your sentence is my point. I understand having weight classes in combat sports for safety reasons - in other sports not so much. So the current "elite" LW Oly lifters are just kidding themselves because they can't compete in the HW division? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Yep. If I had to get someone to clean & jerk a weight off of someone (a stupid analogy but you get the point) I'd ask Taranenko and not Suleymanoglu. It's not that I don't understand your point, I just don't agree with it, nor do I think it is the best way forward for the fledgling sport of Grip. It also doesn't mean that I'm right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) At any given hand size - body weight will be the difference. At any give body weight - hand size will be the difference. There is no answer to this question. Two people have 8.25” hands – one weighs 180 and the other 280 – who is probably stronger. Two guys both weigh 200# - one has 7.5” hands – the other has 8.5” hands – who will win? Edited June 20, 2011 by climber511 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 The one who lifts more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 The one who lifts more? You got me on that one Chris - I about spit out my drink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 The Elite status was put together in order to separate the Woodall's from the rest of the pack. If there is any debate on this, go back and listen to last Fall's Grip Strength Radio shows. While others may set a goal to put a certain poundage on their Grippers, Pinch, and Axle for the prestige of getting to the Elite class, from the beginning it has only been about making the whole contest setting more friendly to beginners and those who have been struggling to compete against certain perennial dominators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 The one who lifts more? You got me on that one Chris - I about spit out my drink Once in a while I have my moments! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acorn Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 The Elite status was put together in order to separate the Woodall's from the rest of the pack. If there is any debate on this, go back and listen to last Fall's Grip Strength Radio shows. While others may set a goal to put a certain poundage on their Grippers, Pinch, and Axle for the prestige of getting to the Elite class, from the beginning it has only been about making the whole contest setting more friendly to beginners and those who have been struggling to compete against certain perennial dominators. I agree and I think this is a good thing. I could care less whether I have the title of Elite or not. What I do care about is alienating other less experienced competitors in my contests when competing heads up in the same class. When they lose interest because they got beat by 100+ pounds in the pinch or take your pick of other lifts and they just don't come out for the next event that really bums me out. Its hard to motivate most people to train for a contest when they are that far off the standard in a one class system. Maybe that's just my experience out here in the west. At this point I would be happy to skip the contests and help build up the base of interested people in my region rather than alienate them in the contests so they never come back out. - Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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