Jedd Johnson Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Chris Rice, I just re-read your initial post and I think you make a good point that did not register before. Are you suggesting we decide on ten events and identify a standard for each of them and then shoot to match those specific numbers in order to "acquire" Elite status, instead of "totaling" Elite status? I think that is a pretty darn good idea. For instance, we could pick out a whole host of events and decide "Elite-level" numbers. I'm not sure 3 out of 10 would be enough for Elite qualifications though. I am thinking 6 out of 10 might be better. My reasoning is just to keep it proportionate. For example, most contests have 5 events and the total is compiled from 3 out of those 5 so maybe the "acquisition" of Elite status would require 6 out of 10 qualifying lifts. We just need to make sure we choose good events and good numbers. We don't want to make the mistake of getting a whole bunch of additional people into the Elite class and then those extra people get constantly beaten all the time. Then we'd essentially be right back where we started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I'd like to know what is the toughest calibrated gripper David Horne has closed in competition with a parallel set as well as his best axle DL in comp. He basically pinched 257 so that would leave about 543. I don't recall him being thought of as a huge axle puller and or one of the top crush guys, although he did have a monsterous vulcan close on the WSH leg; but hey, I've been wrong before. It would be interesting to see where he's at vs. 800 since if he's not "elite" I don't know who is. Horne's gotta be closing 180 on a RGC gripper if he is up in the 20's on a Vulcan. I think that is a pretty safe assumption. So he's already at a total of 437 and would need a pull of 363 on the Axle to qualify. I'd say it is fully doable for him to get that. David's an uncrowned Elite in my book. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubgeezer Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I'm not sure 3 out of 10 would be enough for Elite qualifications though. I am thinking 6 out of 10 might be better. If you went that route, that's probably a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Mike is right about the axle's "disproportionate effect on the total". If the axle is to be used, it should be one-handed anyway if grip strength is what is being measured, it would make bodyweight/overall body strength less of a factor and be a more valid grip strength event. That would make the thickbar/axle numbers more in line with grippers and pinch without any division or math other than addition necessary (a 600 total would be elite). Also, there is less overall weight handled, which would reduce injury risk and perhaps help draw (and retain) more people to the sport. Bob, I don't remember your numbers off-hand. What are they? Here are a couple reason One Hand Axle and Two Hand Axle don't necessarily correlate like you are proposing. One Hand Axle is normally done in a straddle position. Two Hand is done with the bar in front. The straddle position makes lifting a thick bar implement much easier to lift. For instance, I can lift the Inch dumbbell to deadlift just about any time if I straddle it. If I move it to in front of my feet, my thumb must work much harder to stop the rotation of the dumbbell. One Hand Axle would have to be contested in front of the legs in order for a comparision to be made. One Hand Axle is also done to a pull just above the knee and a Row is allowed. This is another technical difference between the two lifts, where the Two Arm Axle DL is done to lockout with mainly straight arms. I am just pointing out that kinetically, these two lifts are not as similar as one might first think, so simply dividing the Two Arm Axle Deadlift number by two will not work. One other question is, where is the injury risk in the deadlift? Is it the sheer numbers that you are looking at? Have you been injured in the deadlift before? Back injuries are not solely due to big numbers in a deadlift. I've watched a lot of people deadlift over the years and many in Grip have horrible technique. Simply by improving the technique on the lift can make a huge difference on not only injury prevention but also numbers lifted. Also, if one has a soft-tissue injury, disk problem, etc that they are bringing to the platform, they should consider getting that fixed or otherwise corrected, because a lift of 40 pounds is just as risky as a lift of 400 pounds. This is coming from somebody with one of the worst lower backs in the sport, as well. Another important thing to take into account is that using just one arm to lift something does not necessarily reduce injury risk. If anything, with the Axle, a one hand lift might compound the injury risk because the body will be more unilaterally loaded, and the pull distance would be more than twice that of, say, a vertical bar lift, which Climber and John Eaton have been injured on in the past, just to name a couple. Bob, in your opinion, what other lifts would you say actually measure Grip Strength, and will not tax the full body strength to such a high degree? This could potentially help define other events that could go into the "6 out of 10" Elite standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Probably not a very popular idea, but would it be wrong to require all NAGS events to feature these three events? The promoter could then pick out a couple more events to add in with the "big three". I'm not saying I like this idea, but it would solve the problem of people not getting the opportunity to achieve elite status. The main problem I see here is that a lot of people don't have axles. It is already hard enough to get promoters who run regular contests, and I would think this would make it even harder. Probably not a very popular idea, but would it be wrong to require all NAGS events to feature these three events? The promoter could then pick out a couple more events to add in with the "big three". I'm not saying I like this idea, but it would solve the problem of people not getting the opportunity to achieve elite status. some guys will not go for that. also, I like the variety in the sport. also, it doesn't help out with the fact that there does seem to be a trend toward the vulcan away from grippers. I think you are right, but I think we should table the Torsion Spring vs Vulcan Spring discussion for another thread. I guess I dont understand... Not that Powerlifting is not completely flawed in a lot of ways, but there are guys that Total ELITE in PL'ing and have a shitty bench, but they have HUGE Squats and DL's.. To me if you can get the #800, then you can get #800. Obviously I have not been around the Grip Game as long as all of you gentlemen, but what do you think about that comparison? Ofcourse your gonna have strengths and weaknesses... everyone does. Thats why Powerlifting has "best overall lifter". So maybe Grip Needs to have "Most Well Rounded Gripper". Just a thought... This is the way i see it as well (bolded above). I think ti was even brought up during the initial discussion. I guess I dont understand... Not that Powerlifting is not completely flawed in a lot of ways, but there are guys that Total ELITE in PL'ing and have a shitty bench, but they have HUGE Squats and DL's.. To me if you can get the #800, then you can get #800. Obviously I have not been around the Grip Game as long as all of you gentlemen, but what do you think about that comparison? Ofcourse your gonna have strengths and weaknesses... everyone does. Thats why Powerlifting has "best overall lifter". So maybe Grip Needs to have "Most Well Rounded Gripper". Just a thought... I guess I kind of view that as the reasoning behind having a "total." If my axle sucks I've got a chance to make up ground in the pinch. One man's strength is another man's weakness. I might get beaten in the stones, but I took the farmers. I may have missed my third attempt bench, but my squat boosted my total. Who knows. Again, my thoughts exactly. Maybe because I have done Strongman in addition to Grip, this makes sense. Making up ground in certain events while others lag behind - it all evens out in the wash. Being so far ahead in one certain thing is what sets you apart from others and makes you "Elite." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I think making it a 1 hand DL would be too easy. I don't know about everyone else, maybe I'm just weird but my 1 hand deadlift is way more than half my DO axle. I can lift 180 1 handed on the axle but my best DO is 315. Im only about 30lbs away from a 600# total using the 1 hand but Im 95lbs away from the 800# total. The DO axle is only a training lift though, in the 8 Grip competitions I have competed in I have never had the opprutunity to do the DO axle. I must have missed your post the first time through. Basically, my description of the differences between One Hand and Two Hand Axle lifts contribute to the differences you stated, and further point to why One Hand #'s should not be thought of as 50% of Two Hand #'s. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Everyone I have an idea for the elite status. Instead of having elite totals, why not have elite qualifying lifts? So take the qualification lifts for nationals and then simply bump up the numbers, then if you can do three of these lifts then you're considered elite. For example a nationals qualification lift for the two hand pinch is 200Lbs, so make an elite lift 220Lbs,then do the same for grippers having 150Lbs qualifying for nationals, then have a 180Lbs close an elite lift, then for the DO axle 325Lbs for nationals and 400Lbs for elite. Then if you don't do one or more of these events then you would do the same for other events such as the 2" Vbar, which is 200Lbs for qualifying for nationals, then you could make it 300Lbs for elite. Then do this process for other lifts. So if someone did 220Lbs for the two hand pinch, 180Lbs for grippers, and then 300lbs for Vbar then that person would be considered elite, because a person needs to do three lifts instead of totaling a certain weight from three lifts. Now the only problem I see is determining the elite weights for the different events. I will admit I'm new to the sport since I've been competing for less than a year and it's really late as I'm writing this. But I think this idea has potential and with some refining it could work. Thanks, Austin Very good points. Thanks for posting. Good thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Nice idea. All systems will have some flaws and our debate will rage on. I do believe that 2 of the Big 3 lifts need to be present at a contest to be sanctioned? or am I mistaken? I can see dividing the axle and 2hp numbers by 2 for the total. That way we maintain the Big 3 for crushing, pinch and support grip, but allow for single arm events on those same devices. Either way, the same guys will be totaling Elite. I will also throw into the debate mix the thought of having poundage numbers for the Novice and Open classes. If Elite is 800#. Is Open class - 600# and Novice anything under that? I have hosted 2 competitions that were geared towards the novice athletes and I am seeing some tremendous numbers put up by 'Novices'. If we have a level, that if attained, qualifies you for Open and you then do not get a full year to remain Novice. Does this make sense? Andrew, I think at one time, this was suggested, however, many do not have Euros or Axles so it was scrapped and I asked promoters to send me their events and rules to make sure it all fell in line with the general idea of what we were looking for. Right... Am I the only one that sees it that way? Seems to me that would be the ONLY way to do it?... Unless your trying to keep a short list. Ex: Im a decent DOH Deadlifter... but Paul Knight is an exceptional crusher.. How would you penalize him? For grip, my thought is you should not make any lift such that the limiting factor is the ability to deadlift the weight and not grip strength ability. That's not what is being tested. Just my 2 cents. Dennis Rodgers comes to mind. Tommy Heslep is another that comes to mind who has a heck of a grip and the ability to deadlift a big weight as a test of grip strength is probably not a level playing field. Even with weight classes although that helps some IMO. Is 400-lbs really that heavy of a deadlift though Bill? It doesn't seem that heavy for most people's bodies to lift that. Hellishly tough to hold onto for an Axle, but as far the back is concerned, I just don't see it??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted June 19, 2011 Author Share Posted June 19, 2011 I didn't really have a solution in mind exactly when I started the discussion. I just was seeing the problem as a lack of opportunities to do the events in a competitive setting. There are a couple guys like Ross Love etc who I think might total Elite given a contest with all three events present. I do really like the idea of something along the lines of 6 out of 10 or similar in a wider selection of events. I think Rex's point is well taken that without proper choices in value - we might end up cheapening the Elite status and creating Elite "losers" so to speak like you mentioned Jedd. Which is not the object at all. I believe for example that the Vulcan has been run though an RGC type process and might be added easily to the Elite process and is going to be contested often in the upcoming WSH series. I don't know why it couldn't be added to the existing procedure along with the COC style grippers if handled properly (rated individually). And adding an event to the WSH series would be much easier than adding it to a contest that already has five events and a long day already such as Nationals or Gripmas. This would also allow "Super" Medley items of events with the qualifying values maybe like those you have for Nationals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Johnson Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Good points Chris. And good discussion you brought up!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoggoth Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I remember Tommy had a lot of trouble with his back when we had 300# on the bar for reps during last years CGC. Great grip but the pulls where bad for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel reinard Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I continue to go back and read and pick out points... As far as the lack of events that have Axle, with the WSH Series coming up, it is not that hard to contest an extra event. For instance, we could keep a tally for David Horne's scoring purposes and also a tally for our purposes. In other words, David has stated that he wants the WSH events to be run first and then extra events can be added. So you do the Vulcan, 2HP, Half Penny and Stub first, and then the Axle can be contested afterwards. The numbers of the 4-event contest could be used as its own qualifier and we can factor in the qualification process of top 3 or 7 for Nationals that way as well. Just a thought there that never ocurred to me before. I like this idea. I would assume each venue can add an event if they choose, just so long as it's treated as such. Off subject, it'd probably be helpful for those looking to qualify for National's, especially with Chance 2. If the WSH venue promoters choose they can do a different additional event for each of the 3 legs. Boom, all WSH 3 leg competitors have their shot at the 3 feats, plus the 2hp at each leg. Basically someone doing all the WSH legs has a chance to perform 3 of the 4 available feats per Chance 2, assuming the venue added one different event each leg. And then of course there's the Elite qualification potential. I feel like I'm speaking out of turn when talking Elite because that ain't me. IMO the 800# total looks fair to me. Talking deadlifts I'll share my personal experience. It's mostly technique unless you bring in an injury. I've only just started doing them at 28 years of age. IMO 405# was easy to obtain within a couple months of moderate training, and I'm 6'2" 180#. If I can do it considering the above, I don't see how a healthy person can't do so at the least with some training effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted June 19, 2011 Author Share Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) I'm one of those rare guys whose hands can do as much or more than my back. I've had several back injuries over the years - the first one in 1964 where I blew two in my lumbar and one in my neck in a car wreck. Then I broke it in a fall in the early 90s - and a few more bulging disks now from nothing in particular except my rather active lifestyle. My best dead lift was 495 back in 1969. I can work up to about 400# right now but the issue as far as grip goes is that when I am close to my limit DL (which is usually about 380 or so) - the lift is so slow that even though I can start the weight - I can't move it smooth and fast enough to finish the pull before wearing out. I can usually do a short range axle rack pull with 415 or so with a small pause. I have no problem with having the DO Axle DL as a major lift for grip though - I realize there are only a very few of us in this situation and the lift is a good test of grip. I do admit it would be nice to have a few options I could train up for though without the back strength issue and feeling like I was at quite as much risk. I have been working on a new piece of training and possible testing for the fingers though - I will unveil it in the medley at Nationals - we'll see how it is received then. It has the potential to maybe be a fair test regardless of hand size - we'll see. Oh Danial - I agree with you - IF you are 28 hehe! Edited June 19, 2011 by climber511 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel reinard Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 It has the potential to maybe be a fair test regardless of hand size - we'll see. Oh Danial - I agree with you - IF you are 28 hehe! Can't wait to see the trip toy. Sounds sweet! Admittingly 28 is a fair age to start some fitness quests. I doubt I'd have the same results X amount of time from now. At some point age trumps stubborness, until then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bencrush Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Really impressed with the 6 to 10 qualifying events for Elite status idea! I wouldn't qualify for Elite in more than a few of the events. How would Elite qualifying standards be chosen? Percentage of contest or world record perhaps. Here are a few US contest records...calibrated MMS gripper - 205lbs. 2" vbar - 335lbs. 1" vbar - 391lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 6 out of 10 is a better idea than the current one, in my opinion. I think the current system might leave out some guys that are obviously elite. Say if Horne and McKinless were US guys. I would say the best way to chose standards would be to see what numbers would put guys who deserve to be on the list solidly there, and leave out guys that don't need to be. Gripper-180 Pinch-220 2"Vbar-300 Axle-400 Wrist Developer- Gold level 8 Vulcan- Gold level 18 OHDL- 290 Lever to face: 22 Now, if you wanted to be really mathematical, 6/8 with 2 crushing, 2 support, 2 wrist, and 2 pinch events would be fair. However, I can't much think of 2 popular pinching events, hence my lift. I would adjust this list to get Thorton, Corcorran, Johnson, Durniat, and Woodall on it, though they would all be close. Or they could be grandfathered in- Woodall is obviously elite but he competed before the vulcan or wrist developer were popular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico300zx Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Ben, I thought u had to qualify for elite each year? I still think the same guys would be on the list any way. But someone did bring up a good point about not seeing all the events despite going to several contests. Parris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Love Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I like this Idea Bob... but the numbers would have to be changed a bit in my opinion. This list would make me Elite.. and in all honesty I dont consider myself an Elite, yet. My first competition I did was at Paul Knights Metroflex in Ft. Worth. It was a great competition because it DID have all the staples. My numbers for that competition were Axle: 420 Euro: 232 COC Gripper: #138 Total #790 I could have easily hit a 430 Axle instead of Attempting 450 (which I also should have hit) but Since then.. I have easily totalled Elite in Training. I would have that day if it were not for the fact that I had no idea what I was doing with the Grippers lol. What I think would be cool is... If we are talking about changing things a little bit.. or setting a "new standard" then I would propose taking the current "elite" gripsters... Have them do all 3 lifts (axle, euro, grippers) in one day.. film it and post their total on youtube. Then take the average from all of their totals and have that be the new Elite Number. Obviously it would be over #800.. those guys would be "grandfathered" in at Elite status and that would set the new bar for future Grip Competitiors. Just brainstorming... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Love Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Nice idea. All systems will have some flaws and our debate will rage on. I do believe that 2 of the Big 3 lifts need to be present at a contest to be sanctioned? or am I mistaken? I can see dividing the axle and 2hp numbers by 2 for the total. That way we maintain the Big 3 for crushing, pinch and support grip, but allow for single arm events on those same devices. Either way, the same guys will be totaling Elite. I will also throw into the debate mix the thought of having poundage numbers for the Novice and Open classes. If Elite is 800#. Is Open class - 600# and Novice anything under that? I have hosted 2 competitions that were geared towards the novice athletes and I am seeing some tremendous numbers put up by 'Novices'. If we have a level, that if attained, qualifies you for Open and you then do not get a full year to remain Novice. Does this make sense? Andrew, I think at one time, this was suggested, however, many do not have Euros or Axles so it was scrapped and I asked promoters to send me their events and rules to make sure it all fell in line with the general idea of what we were looking for. Right... Am I the only one that sees it that way? Seems to me that would be the ONLY way to do it?... Unless your trying to keep a short list. Ex: Im a decent DOH Deadlifter... but Paul Knight is an exceptional crusher.. How would you penalize him? For grip, my thought is you should not make any lift such that the limiting factor is the ability to deadlift the weight and not grip strength ability. That's not what is being tested. Just my 2 cents. Dennis Rodgers comes to mind. Tommy Heslep is another that comes to mind who has a heck of a grip and the ability to deadlift a big weight as a test of grip strength is probably not a level playing field. Even with weight classes although that helps some IMO. Is 400-lbs really that heavy of a deadlift though Bill? It doesn't seem that heavy for most people's bodies to lift that. Hellishly tough to hold onto for an Axle, but as far the back is concerned, I just don't see it??? Im totally with you on this one, Jedd... Even 500lbs is NOT that serious in terms of Deadlifting. There are tons of guys out there that can walk in off the street and hit a 500lb deadlift. A lot of guys under 200lbs. IMO The DOH Axle deadlift is nothing but a test of Grip Strength... If you are able to grip more than your back will allow you to pick up, then you have a maaaaajor imbalance lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 OK - I really like the discussion so far but ....... Let's look at who has made Elite so far, and who we think has a shot at making Elite under the current standard. No one under about 6' 2" and 230 has made Elite (most are 250 or better and most taller as well) - and all the guys I can think of now I put on my short list of people who will make it soon are pretty big people. If we set up a standard that only super heavyweights have a realistic chance of making (and I think we have)- how do you think this will affect our other goal of growing the sport? I don't care if it's the 82.5 class or the 94k class I have used for a few years - how many guys in either of those classes or in Jedd's idea of a small hands class at 7.75" can you think of who have a shot at making this level Elite Total? This is the 800# gorilla of Grip Sport - if everything is set up for the Super Heavyweights - will we have anyone else become interested in the sport? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 OK - I really like the discussion so far but ....... Let's look at who has made Elite so far, and who we think has a shot at making Elite under the current standard. No one under about 6' 2" and 230 has made Elite (most are 250 or better and most taller as well) - and all the guys I can think of now I put on my short list of people who will make it soon are pretty big people. Current Elite Status Lifters (alphabetical order): Aaron Corcorran Andrew Durniat Adam Glass Jedd Johnson Dave Thornton Chad Woodall. Big dudes. Are any of these guys under 8" hand size? I still go back to a comment I made in the 82.5 class thread. If I were to obtain Elite status it would look something like this: 400 axle (2.5x bodyweight) 220 2HP (1.375x bodyweight) 180 gripper close (1.125x bodyweight). Those percentages are based on 160# bodyweight. Also with 7-5/8" hands. I think I would be the greatest grip athlete that ever lived..? I do agree with Rex that there is a legitimate issue with cheapening the Elite status. I feel like my mere attendance at Nationals will be an example of this. I qualifed based on my MM1 cert, but really have no business being there with a 551# contest total. But I'm going! I don't think it would be cheapening Elite status to have a different qualifier based on weight or hand size, especially if it's an actual established separate class at NAGS-sanctioned events. At that point it makes sense that there would be a different qualifier under the same logic used to support the need for a separate class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Love Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I agree Chris... There is no disputing that the Bigger/Stronger Athlete will win MOST of the time.. not all the time. There are plenty of guys out there much stronger and smaller than me. But as a general rule I agree with you. For anyone to say that Size doesnt matter is crazy.. all you would have to do is take ME for example.. I had ZERO prior grip training to my first competition and I was 10lbs away from Elite. To say I never trained my grip would be wrong, but I never trained it specifically for the intent of doing a grip competition. I am all for Grip Divisions... if it encourges more people to compete then im definitely all for it. Afterall thats what its all about. My only concern would be watering down the sport by creating to many divisions. I like Jedd's idea... x < 7.75" > x In my opinion Hand size plays a much bigger factor than Weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Love Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I don't think it would be cheapening Elite status to have a different qualifier based on weight or hand size, especially if it's an actual established separate class at NAGS-sanctioned events. At that point it makes sense that there would be a different qualifier under the same logic used to support the need for a separate class. I agree 100%... If there was a new division established tomorrow for example an under 7.75" hand size division.. then ya.. why not have their Elite Total be #600? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I like Jedd's idea... x < 7.75" > x In my opinion Hand size plays a much bigger factor than Weight. I like this too. I could gain weight if I really wanted, but my hands are not going to get bigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Love Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I like Jedd's idea... x < 7.75" > x In my opinion Hand size plays a much bigger factor than Weight. I like this too. I could gain weight if I really wanted, but my hands are not going to get bigger. Ya... I really do believe weight is the smallest piece of the pie when it comes to the make up of a good gripper. 1. Hand Size 2. Tendon Strength 3. Body Fat Percentage (which im trying to prove lol) 4. Muscle Mass 5. Desire to get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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