gazza Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Tom Introduce a hand dynanometer as the gripper,if you were to use somethin like the 1that Robert Baraban makes you can adjust the handle for the length of fingers so the highest poundage squeezed wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Hammerhead What is your hand size,what size d/bell bar are you looking for,i might be able to help you out as i have some surplus bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybersnott Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 mob, HOW DARE YOU CHALLENGE ME... THE GREAT AND MIGHTY SYBERSNOTT!!! Seriously, a king is only a king IF he can prove what he can do. I'm reminded of a line in the movie, "Excalibur", where one knight (Gwen) questions the actions of Sir Lancelot. The King (Arthur) decides that both knights will settle the matter on the field of honour. "For I decree.... that no knight who is false can win in battle over one that is true". Meaning: I don't care who you are, what you claim, what your reputation is, or your physical stature or knowledge - you still must show what you are capable of.... before the eyes of your peers. This is why contests and competitions are held. If two competitiors are alike in many ways, how do you declare who is the better man? You create a level playing field, and set upon a contest with rules and those to judge the contest fairly. On this basis, I for one like the fairbar idea, although it probably still needs some work (minor details). I, for one, applaud Roark on his unique idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wood Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 I offer this point for the sake of arguement and as a means of further discussion and hope it doesnt stir up too much trouble. The "fairbar" idea is interesting in that relative to hand size, it will produce a set of data. This is done so that "everyone is on equal ground" and no one has an advantage based on their natural leverages. If this is done in this manner ,in order to "correlate data"( and I use this term loosly) among different individuals , both distance traveled and speed of motion must also be equal. For the sake of arguement, say two men of equal hand size face off in a deadlift contest with a "fairbar." Say one man is a foot taller than the other and each lifts the same amount of weight, does the taller man win because his weight traveled farther? I have a friend who can barely close the trainer for one rep. He can also get the inch replica off the ground. His hands are exactly the same length as mine. The difference is that his middle knuckle is about an inch longer than mine which affords a greater leverage advantage in lifting the inch. How can you account for something like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted February 25, 2003 Author Share Posted February 25, 2003 Surgery? Seriously, we level the playing field on matters that can be leveled. Regarding distance lifted, I would say to full extension. This is why the stones are so unfair to shorter men who must lift the stones higher in proportion to their body structures to reach the same height as a taller man who need only lift the stone to nose height (for example). I am not prepared to tackle Fairstones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gollan Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 I should really like this idea since I am probably one of the smallest guys here and would stand to benefit from it. For the record my hand length is 6 15/16" and I would need a bar 2.21" in diameter. It is an interesting idea but the fact is I want to use the same equipment as everone else. I would prefer we all use standard-sized equipment but add weight classes (or even frame-size classes) and compare ourselves amoung our class peers. I'd really like to know where I stand compared with other "small-framed" guys. BTW, when I deadlift I only have to move the bar about 20" from the floor to lock-out. The bigger guys amoung us are just clearing their knees with the bar at 20". That already gives me an advantage . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted February 25, 2003 Author Share Posted February 25, 2003 Do you also want to wear shoes a couple of sizes too large, and wear a oversized belt? The 'same size' is exactly what the Fairbar is! Just as a shoe fits the foot properly if the foot length is considered, so Fairbar fits the hand considering hand length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gollan Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 (edited) Do you also want to wear shoes a couple of sizes toolarge, and wear a oversized belt? I guess I'm conditioned to adapt myself to things rather than the other way around. As a result it took me a little while to get a grip on your idea.I am still thinking about your idea and it is intriging. I wonder if PDA would make the customized bars? For simplicity could we round the bar diameter off to the nearest larger 1/8 or 1/4"? There will be a minor difference in bar weight. I haven't worked it out but I guess it would only be a few pounds between the smallest and the largest. Are you going address the issue of "work"? As others have pointed out given two identical weight lifts the taller guy does more "work" (force x distance). Perhaps Fairbar lifts could also be rated in "work" units which in metric are Joules (AKA Newton-Meters) or because we tend to use US measurements we could stick to "foot-pounds". So someone can claim a 100 foot-pound Fairbar dead-lift and see if anyone else can match it. Just rambling on here... Edited February 25, 2003 by gollan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 mob,HOW DARE YOU CHALLENGE ME... THE GREAT AND MIGHTY SYBERSNOTT!!! Seriously, a king is only a king IF he can prove what he can do. I'm reminded of a line in the movie, "Excalibur", where one knight (Gwen) questions the actions of Sir Lancelot. The King (Arthur) decides that both knights will settle the matter on the field of honour. "For I decree.... that no knight who is false can win in battle over one that is true". Meaning: I don't care who you are, what you claim, what your reputation is, or your physical stature or knowledge - you still must show what you are capable of.... before the eyes of your peers. This is why contests and competitions are held. If two competitiors are alike in many ways, how do you declare who is the better man? You create a level playing field, and set upon a contest with rules and those to judge the contest fairly. On this basis, I for one like the fairbar idea, although it probably still needs some work (minor details). I, for one, applaud Roark on his unique idea. I know your joking but I have competed. Many here have not for just as many reasons. This includes the 'mighty' syber! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Harlan Jacobs Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 While this idea would be interesting,I don't feel that it should happen. That's like saying all sports should change for each person competing. I feel each contest or competition has set rules for that event. Those rules can not be changed for anyone wanting to compete because of size or weight or anything else. Most contest have weight classes,age classes,novice or pro. If you want to compete,and you have been training, then you will fit into one of these classes I for one don't care what the playing field is as long as we use the same weight ,same time, or moved in the same maner. Sorry guys,but this sounds like an excuse. And an excuse is like a crutch. It's for the weak and the lame. I have got some chesse that might go good with what you are drinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted February 25, 2003 Author Share Posted February 25, 2003 Harlan, It is not like saying ALL sports etc should change. It is like saying what I said which was/is in reference to thickbar only. I am not even saying competitions should change. My idea is an addition, not a substitution, to wit: Perhaps I am not communicating well, but it seems to me if the Fairbar idea is anything, is is fair, because we cannot change our limb/finger lengths, but we can change the bar diameter, and know at least in a non-competition setting how we compare. What if in the bench press, no spotters were allowed, and the lifter was required to unrack the weight and replace it unassisted- would that be fair to a competitor with arms too short to reach the bar? Would it be cheating to have uprights he could reach? Those who want to try this idea will at least know where they stand on a level playing field. Why is it that Inch did not make his Inch handle 3.38" instead of 2.38"- and remember he designated the handle size- contrary to many erroneous articles- he ORDERED the size, it was not a mistake as he later claimed. If the size were 3.38" the bell would have no interest to 99% of us with 'normal' size hands; it would interest only those able to grasp it. About the idea 'happening', not to worry. Those who choose to pursue it can, and those who choose not to need do nothing. I take no pride in outlifting someone on a thickbar if my hands are an inch longer than his, indeed the name thickbar implies 'too' thick for a given person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJM Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Seahawk fans must be saying WOW, just think if David Krieg used the fairball, he wouldn't have fumbled as much and maybe thay would have a Superbowl win in their history. Think of all those track competitors that got smoked by Edwin Moses. If only there had been fairhurdle.... Fairtax anyone??? Ah, the slippery slope towards socialism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted February 25, 2003 Author Share Posted February 25, 2003 KJM, Once again. Fairbar is the only topic I am discussing. You have valid points about the size of the football etc., and that floodgate will never be opened, so can we not stick to the topic at hand, pun intended? On the other hand, why isn't the football larger? Don't answer that Many here are probably as uninterested in thickbar lifting as I am at squeezing grippers. Why does the idea that some might want a Fairbar bother others, especially if such a bar is for personal use and not for competition? Would it be unfair in competition? If I use a standard bar 1.1" and you use the Inch handle, who would say that is fair in a deadlift contest? The Fairbar is an equalizer. Anyway, there is a very easy solution if Fairbar does not appeal to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wells Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 The SeaHa... ! You should be banned for one week for even mentioning that team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJM Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Roark, The concept of fairbar does not bother me but the practical application does. The bar will only be "fair" when it is in the exact same proportion to each competitor's hand. If competitor A's hand is 1/16" smaller than competitor B, the bar differnetial should be proportionate. Some posts have suggested a uniform bar thickness which would not be fair under your hypothesis. We have only discussed hand length as a variable. What about width of palms? Do we lengthen or shorten the bar accordingly to allow for cross sectional mass of the hand lifting the bar? Your proposal however does provide for lively discussion. To answer your question. No, because I do not know the differential between our two hands. However, if you were to work out a formula taking into consideration length and width and we competed and you beat me I would graciously acknowledge your win with the time worn phrase "All things being equal..... Joe beat me, but ...." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted February 25, 2003 Author Share Posted February 25, 2003 Fairbar is not a practical idea, if by that is meant, will all sizes be commonly available. That is why I earlier suggested that each person make or have made a Fairbar for himself. Each person needs only one size. Competition would be a nightmare unless each person brings his own. The width is something that might matter in a dumbell Fairbar, but not in a barbell Fairbar. As mentioned, the original Inch and the Millennium bell are 2.38" (7.5 circumference). Also the Inch replica is 7.75" circumference (2.47")- many of us will fall into that range. One other point: As it would be agreed (I think), that a hook grip is an advantage over a non hook grip, so a longer hand on the same size bar is an advantage over a shorter hand on that same bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan McMillan Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 It's threads like this that make this board so excellent!!!! I like the concept...I think there's room in the grip training world for another lift! That's how I see the fairbar anyways, not a replacement for the other thick bar lifts in competition already but as a completely unique event. Jon@han Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Calculating bar size based on hand length divided by pi, has to be done accurately. 1/8 on the diameter will add over 3/8 to the circumference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 When it comes to making things fair, I don't even really like the idea of weight classes in weighlifting sports, and certainly not formulae and the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimwylie1 Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 What if you have two guys (#1 and #2) with the same hand length (from wrist to longest finger) but guy #2's other fingers are relatively short (from wrist to the end of each other finger) compared to guy #1. They would be using the using the same size bar (inline with fairbar rules) but they would have a different portion of hand around the bar. Guy #1 would therefore be at an advantage. Maybe this isn't likely but it could make a difference: Calculating bar size based on hand length divided by pi, has to be done accurately. 1/8 on the diameter will add over 3/8 to the circumference. Does this need to be accounted for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted February 25, 2003 Author Share Posted February 25, 2003 About a century ago or so there were no weight classes in lifting, so it would seem, to me, to be, unfair to pit Louis Cyr against a man such as Oscar Matthes who was one third of Cyr's bodyweight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 To get Joe's fairbar diameter, measure your hand precisely, do not make it longer that it actually is! Take this figure and using a calculator that has the pi function divide it by pi. I come out to be 2.845'' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 When I get my 3'' bar, I will be able to see how much less I can lift than on the 2 3/8'' handle I have been using for some time. I am predicting about 17% less. We shall see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wood Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 I guess what Im trying to say is that no matter what provisions are made, someone will always have an advantage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted February 25, 2003 Author Share Posted February 25, 2003 John is right, someone will always have an upper hand... We cannot (have I said this before?) change limbs; we can change bar sizes. Let's focus on the possible. Jim, Regarding finger/palm proportion, the only way to adjust to that I suppose, is to use non-round bars which have been custom made to fit the finger bends etc of the lifter. I'll stick to Fairbar. Let's also keep in mind that 100 years ago there was a minimum bar diameter for lifting. Nothing under 7/8" was allowed. I do not know why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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