Grip Sport Organization

[Jedd Johnson]

Jedd,

Having been involved in and having some decent knowledge of sports who actually are quite serious about drug testing (A and B samples, accredited Laboratories etc) and the legal and procedural challenges they have I'm quite suprised that anyone thinks store a "store bought" steroid test is going to cut it - those strips test for, what, 13 different types?

As for who is going to "sue", I think you misunderstand the sort of ego and pride you might be dealing with - as you well know, lots of blood and pain and sweat (not to mention a sizeable hunk of change) goes into getting ready for a competiton, if a result come back that the Testee believes to be incorrect or flawed what would you expect them to do? Plus I believe one of your stated motives is to actually get some better prize money into the sport, that's only going to increase the likelihood of a challenge.

Chris, I have no idea who you are, so you may have tons of experience with other sports and drug testing. I only know my experience and those working with me.

However, I will take your points as food for thought and speak with the people working with me.

Thanks.

[Jedd Johnson]

Thanks for this Jedd! Really cool. Are you the contact for contest info? I will be having stuff up for MGC soon.

Let me preface the following by writing I am going to support this no matter what, the following is definitely not a huge issue for me-

I only have one criticism- Requiring the 100 point score system. This system is great except in medleys and timed events. In timed events especially- If you have somebody go 10 seconds and somebody else go 3, that might not be a huge strength difference but it is a huge point difference. That is a 70 point difference for one event. That is equal to a 200 gripper beating a guy closing a 60 gripper, or a 240 pincher going against a 72 pound pincher.

Or, in another way- If you beat a guy in gripper, pinch, and axle 180-171, 240-228, and 400-380, he would beat you overall with a timed hold of 20 seconds to your 16.

If you guys are set on this for all comps, I won't complain. I would prefer to have strongman scoring in my competition. Again, I will go with the flow though. I see why you are mandating the scoring system, I could always make seperate 100 point scale for your ratings. Whatever you want want Jedd.

This scoring system awards you for what you do. Strongman does not. I am sorry if you don't like this scoring system but this is what we are going with.

-Jedd-

[Jedd Johnson]

Everything looks great Jedder...thanks for taking the time to put it all together.

Chad

Thanks Chad.

[Jedd Johnson]

Thanks for this Jedd! Really cool. Are you the contact for contest info? I will be having stuff up for MGC soon.

Let me preface the following by writing I am going to support this no matter what, the following is definitely not a huge issue for me-

I only have one criticism- Requiring the 100 point score system. This system is great except in medleys and timed events. In timed events especially- If you have somebody go 10 seconds and somebody else go 3, that might not be a huge strength difference but it is a huge point difference. That is a 70 point difference for one event. That is equal to a 200 gripper beating a guy closing a 60 gripper, or a 240 pincher going against a 72 pound pincher.

Or, in another way- If you beat a guy in gripper, pinch, and axle 180-171, 240-228, and 400-380, he would beat you overall with a timed hold of 20 seconds to your 16.

If you guys are set on this for all comps, I won't complain. I would prefer to have strongman scoring in my competition. Again, I will go with the flow though. I see why you are mandating the scoring system, I could always make seperate 100 point scale for your ratings. Whatever you want want Jedd.

Bob,

Couple more thoughts...

I think it would either have to be extraordinarily heavy or thick for there to be that large of a spread in a hold.

Also, this scoring system works fine for medleys.The objctive of the medley is to get as many lifted as possible. The person with the well-rounded grip is going to do better at grippers, pinch, and thick bar, and also better in the medley.

[Bob Lipinski]

Jedd-

I get what you are saying, but statistics will show a bigger spread in timed holds vs. any other event, making them count significantly more- See gripmas 07-

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pUx8RwMIiXmw2Bc_VA8u1YA

Dead last (rounded off) in the grippers is 40 points, pinch 50, axle 60, medley 20 and hold 10. I bet those statisics would hold for most contest.

I'll talk more via email. I'm just speaking my mind once and I am done. I am ready to back this 100%. Sorry for any trouble, I really didn't do this to be a jerk. Whatever you decide I will go by.

[Hubgeezer]

Jedd-

I get what you are saying, but statistics will show a bigger spread in timed holds vs. any other event, making them count significantly more- See gripmas 07-

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pUx8RwMIiXmw2Bc_VA8u1YA

Dead last (rounded off) in the grippers is 40 points, pinch 50, axle 60, medley 20 and hold 10. I bet those statisics would hold for most contest.

I'll talk more via email. I'm just speaking my mind once and I am done. I am ready to back this 100%. Sorry for any trouble, I really didn't do this to be a jerk. Whatever you decide I will go by.

Hmmm. You know, on the "Medley" stuff, I tend to say "them's the breaks". On the "holds", I tend to agree with you. Haugen's Southern California contest is going to have a 700 pound trap bar hold for time. Let's say someone holds it 40 seconds (100 points), and someone holds it 2 seconds (5 points). Not sure why I am willing to say "them's the breaks" on a Medley, but I am more sympathetic to what you are saying for that type of event. Maybe "event selection" will become a bigger issue under this setup.

[Jedd Johnson]

Jedd-

I get what you are saying, but statistics will show a bigger spread in timed holds vs. any other event, making them count significantly more- See gripmas 07-

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pUx8RwMIiXmw2Bc_VA8u1YA

Dead last (rounded off) in the grippers is 40 points, pinch 50, axle 60, medley 20 and hold 10. I bet those statisics would hold for most contest.

I'll talk more via email. I'm just speaking my mind once and I am done. I am ready to back this 100%. Sorry for any trouble, I really didn't do this to be a jerk. Whatever you decide I will go by.

That hold event should have been completely thrown out of the results as it was flawed. The edges of one set of plates were extremely sharp and the edges of the other plates were rounded. You can't use that event as an example for that reason alone.

However, even if identical plates were used, you're talking about an event that requires pain tolerance. You can be strong as hell and not handle pain well, which is going to drop your score.

But if you want to go pull event results out of the past, I will play your games, brother...

Good luck finding the results of BFGS, but that event ended with a Farmer's Hold. The Farmer's had knurling on them that felt like the blade side of a cheese grater, and they were 350-lbs per hand. The guy that won the event was Dan Cenidoza. He was training for strongman at the time. He beat both Rob Vigeants, Steve McGranahan, Rick Walker, me, Smitty, Tommy Heslep, Dave Morton, John mannino - everybody.

The point is, anything can happen in a Holding Event, so you have to be prepared for it. It's just like anything else. You can't go into a contest training your butt off on four events but leave one just hanging and then wonder why you got your butt kicked in the standings at the end.

Incidentally, In that contest, I beat Dan Cenidoza in every single event - Grippers, 2HP, Thick Bar, and Bending. And then when he finished first place, that put him ahead of me at the end.

Guess what scoring system was used?

Strongman.

Jedd

[Jedd Johnson]

Jedd-

I get what you are saying, but statistics will show a bigger spread in timed holds vs. any other event, making them count significantly more- See gripmas 07-

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pUx8RwMIiXmw2Bc_VA8u1YA

Dead last (rounded off) in the grippers is 40 points, pinch 50, axle 60, medley 20 and hold 10. I bet those statisics would hold for most contest.

I'll talk more via email. I'm just speaking my mind once and I am done. I am ready to back this 100%. Sorry for any trouble, I really didn't do this to be a jerk. Whatever you decide I will go by.

Hmmm. You know, on the "Medley" stuff, I tend to say "them's the breaks". On the "holds", I tend to agree with you. Haugen's Southern California contest is going to have a 700 pound trap bar hold for time. Let's say someone holds it 40 seconds (100 points), and someone holds it 2 seconds (5 points). Not sure why I am willing to say "them's the breaks" on a Medley, but I am more sympathetic to what you are saying for that type of event. Maybe "event selection" will become a bigger issue under this setup.

But let me ask you this, Hub - why would that person only hold it for 2 seconds? Did he not train the event even though the contest has been announced for 4 or 5 months ahead of time? Did he get injured? Was he tired? Could he not handle the pain?

Any number of things could cause that poor showing.

If he didn't train, didn't train enough, didn't train right, then "them's the breaks" is fitting there. He should have trained more effectively.

If he got injured beforehand and couldn't hold the bar, then that sucks. Injuries suck, but they are part of the sport.

If he was tired, then he should have trained harder, drunk more water, eaten more effectively, etc.

If he couldn't handle the pain, "them's the breaks."

Any scoring system has its benefits and its draw backs. if the draw-back of a base-100 scoring system is that it can have a huge effect on the scoring, then does it make more sense to switch the scoring system (when almost no contests have holding events), or does it make more sense to prepare properly for the contest.

[Jedd Johnson]

Jedd-

I get what you are saying, but statistics will show a bigger spread in timed holds vs. any other event, making them count significantly more- See gripmas 07-

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pUx8RwMIiXmw2Bc_VA8u1YA

Dead last (rounded off) in the grippers is 40 points, pinch 50, axle 60, medley 20 and hold 10. I bet those statisics would hold for most contest.

I'll talk more via email. I'm just speaking my mind once and I am done. I am ready to back this 100%. Sorry for any trouble, I really didn't do this to be a jerk. Whatever you decide I will go by.

Bob, I looked at those results, and it is really hard to draw any solid conclusions from it in my opinion. A lot of the people that struggled in the Hold Event were first-time competitors. Some were severely under-prepared for the contest. One, if I recall correctly, was only going to watch and then signed up last minute. Like I said before, the results are all screwed up anyway because two different sets of 100's were used and one was sharp and the other was severely sharp.

Jedd

[acree90]

anyways I think this is going to be great for grip. I feel we'll have to have some contests and see what works and what doesn't.

[jad]

Strongman scoring has it's inconsistencies too. You have one bad event, especially in with a large field and it's over. They all have advantages and disadvantages but I like the fact that Jedd has actually picked one and is moving forward with it regardless of whether or not everyone agrees. If the contest has fair, well-balanced events, then it shouldn't matter that much. For example, a 700# hold that only a few guys can even pick up or a medley with handsize feats/gimme points make either system invalid.

[bencrush]

I definitely favor the percentage scoring because it means that competitors are rewarded more for a better performance. And guys like me that are pretty lopsided on certain things (like 1" vbar in my heyday) can turn things around with a few really strong events. I'm getting fired up to support the new grip organization. There are so many ways to get more people interested. I think getting local Crossfit gyms on board would really bump up the membership numbers too in a good way. I mention Crossfitters only because I know a few of them and they have exceptional grips. One of them was my judge on the #3 cert back in 2005.

[The Mac]

This has been debated several times over at Horne's board - Strongman system works well enough when the events are varied (eg distance, reps, timed events etc) but is not great when it comes to events where poundage is the goal. Conversely in poundage events (aka Max Lifts) the 100 point system is good but it doesn't work too well when applied to the other categories - you have to pick your events for your scoring system.

[Bob Lipinski]

I am sorry I made a big deal about this! I hope my intent wasn't misunderstood.

I get where the percentage system is going, and I favor that as the overall standard. I just would like the opportunity to use the strongman stuff for my contest for the reasons Chris mentioned. I like timed events, holds, trying new or odd events, etc. I think there is a place in our sport for those types of contests.

I would also agree to convert my results to a 100 scale system for official rankings, and would volunteer to do the same if anyone else is trying to be a stubborn prick like me.

I also agree that if the events are chosen well, the 100 points system is better.

[climber511]

This is the exact reason our attempt at organizing failed the last time - you simply can't turn everything loose in a forum setting and expect to get anything done. Jedd is forming a Grip Organization - let's let him do so. Lead, follow, or stay out of the way may be the way forward this time.

[The Mac]

Chris,

I'm sure that Jedd will do what needs to be done - doesn't mean others cannot comment and make suggestions though surely? After all Bob runs his Comps (and so directly participates) and I'm not even American (and so don't have any Dog in the Fight).

[rico300zx]

This is the exact reason our attempt at organizing failed the last time - you simply can't turn everything loose in a forum setting and expect to get anything done. Jedd is forming a Grip Organization - let's let him do so. Lead, follow, or stay out of the way may be the way forward this time.

Chris, we're all involved though promoters and compeditors. Its better this way people want to know why this or that was done, so when this thread is read everyone will know. i think that good ideas shouldnt be discarded and perhaps for the first YEAR 2 or 3 scoring systems should be used at the same comp and the results compared or COMBINED to find the best way for our sport.

Parris

[The Chuck]

Jedd, More power to you on all this. Whatever I can help with here in Maryland, Im sure Mike or I are up to the task.

[Bob Lipinski]

I plugged in some numbers from an older contest. I think this will work well- The difference wasn't as bad as I thought.

[Jedd Johnson]

This is the exact reason our attempt at organizing failed the last time - you simply can't turn everything loose in a forum setting and expect to get anything done. Jedd is forming a Grip Organization - let's let him do so. Lead, follow, or stay out of the way may be the way forward this time.

Chris, we're all involved though promoters and compeditors. Its better this way people want to know why this or that was done, so when this thread is read everyone will know. i think that good ideas shouldnt be discarded and perhaps for the first YEAR 2 or 3 scoring systems should be used at the same comp and the results compared or COMBINED to find the best way for our sport.

Parris

Parris,

For the last six years, I have been testing scoring systems. Based on feedback I have received from being glued to this board and interacting with competitors and promoters all over the Nation, I truly feel %-based scoring is the only way to go in order to accurately depict performances on a scoresheet and in order to translate the results into rankings.

Please understand that these discussions were going on for years before you ever found the board. There is a lot of history and emotion built up in this. So please don't take it the wrong way if I do not continue to operate under multiple scoring systems.

Bob,

You are being very professional in being supportive of this scoring system. I know that it is not your preferred way, but I thank you for coming on board. You have a lot of knowledge and spirit that can help the sport take off.

Josh, Chris, Chuck, et al,

Thanks for your support.

Jedd

[Jeff Parker]

For the Elite level status, do the lifts have to be all done in one competition or can they be done in seperate contests.

[rico300zx]

Jedd, yea I really didn't realize there was so much wrapped up in something like a scoring system I guess. I would like to be rewarded for what I do when I compete. The problem I have is that I don't know enough about all the sysyems and everyone is making such good points its hard to know what's what.

Parris

[Jedd Johnson]

For the Elite level status, do the lifts have to be all done in one competition or can they be done in seperate contests.

Jeff, good question and I am glad you asked it. This helps me understand what I have missed when writing the rules.

The lifts do NOT have to take place all in the same contest. They can be done separate ones. After all there are some contests that do not have the Axle in them because its price makes it a challenge for some promoters.

Thanks for bringing this up Jeff

Jedd

[Bob Lipinski]

Allright, I have some things that may help-

1. Maybe mentioning cleaning the equipment in the rules, ie "washing the chalk off the euro device or vbar is not allowed", "promoter discretion", or something. Not digging at you honest Parris! Something I had never thought of before it happened.

2. I'd love contact info on the page. We all know how to get a hold of you Jedd, not everyone else will. If there is someone handling records or what not, their info would be good.

I would love to help Jedd, and if you have any "assignments" for me, let me know.

[Forever]

Goodluck on this task Jedd...the sport is moving in the right direction