bseedot Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Mikael- Correct. My fault. I didn't back up far enough. You win. No comment on the rest of my post though? BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikael Siversson Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Quite a few guys have managed to pinch two 45's with only one or two years of training. One would think that a "world class" level would require several years of training by genetically gifted people before true, and long standing, world class is achieved (IMO). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonevincenzi Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 I've said powerlifter because a powerlifter is a strong guy, but I can also say : if a man who does a lot of manual labor, a man who has strong hands, strong grip and so on, trained with coc, will be able to become a certified coc ? will be able to pinch grip a pair of 45s? I think (this is my opinion, nothing more nothing less) that many of these men would be able to accomplish these feats of strength after a period of training (maybe 1 year, maybe less). It happens to everybody who train grip, is suppose, to armwrestle against a man who doesn't train in a weight room, doesn't know anything about pinch gripping and coc, but pushes like a madman and his grip strength seems very, very good. Do you agree with me guys? how much is important to train grip strength to accomplish a feat of strenght and how much is important genetics or years of generic heavy manual labor? After answering these questions, i think, it can be said if a feat of grip strenght is world class or not. Simone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Mikael, Your reasoning calls for a floating level of world class, does it not? If we establish that closing a #3 is world class (for the sake of argument) or that deadlifting an Inch is, then are we required to ask contestants how much experience they have in regard to the feats, or are we to simply judge whether on that day the 3 is closed and/or the Inch deadlifted? There most certainly are people who can deadlift an Inch the debut time their fingers touch one. And that is true for the #3 as well. So the feat is world class if the feat is met, or only if months/years of progress have been required to meet it? If the latter, then we are put into the position of telling the man who closes a 3 on first attempt that he is less than the man who required two years to close it, are we not? In my view, the man who achieves success on first try may well have far more untapped potential, and thus be greater than the person who required two years. To sidetrack into track: Anyone running the hundred yard dash in under ten seconds is world class, whether it was their first or their 400th try at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Valid point, Mikael. I'm wondering if grip strength ought to fit into that definition though. Someone mentioned sprinters earlier in this thread, I think . Does something like pinching plates require the mastering of technique, like most Olympic events? There I can see where gifted individuals spend years mastering their craft but I'm inclined to think that that isn;t required of grip feats. I think back to Nick McKinless's article on pinching and realize that there is definitely technique involved but I'm not sure that time spent on an endeavor is a necessary factor when considering something to be world class for lower arm strength... BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikael Siversson Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Mikael,Your reasoning calls for a floating level of world class, does it not? Well, it would have to be, just like in any other sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikael Siversson Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Valid point, Mikael. I'm wondering if grip strength ought to fit into that definition though. Someone mentioned sprinters earlier in this thread, I think . Does something like pinching plates require the mastering of technique, like most Olympic events? There I can see where gifted individuals spend years mastering their craft but I'm inclined to think that that isn;t required of grip feats. I think back to Nick McKinless's article on pinching and realize that there is definitely technique involved but I'm not sure that time spent on an endeavor is a necessary factor when considering something to be world class for lower arm strength...BC. A year ago or so, we had a similar discussion on whether closing a #3 is world class or not. Some of us (like me) got upset when someone suggested that it was more like winning a state championship. No we know that he was basically right. Closing a #3 can hardly be considered world class. I suspect that a couple of years from now we would have a similar situation with pinching two 45's. World class level should be able to withstand the pressure from time by more than a couple of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 What I meant was floating level in the sense that if you close a 3 after two years and I close it on first try (it's my post so I can dream) then have we both achieved a world class feat which was pre-determined, or can the level of achievement be defined only by knowing the level of experience at the feat? What other sport has such a floating definition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikael Siversson Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 No, I misunderstood you. I mean that if a larger number of people, like those on this board which numbers more than a thousand, trained pionching for several year, then we would have a better idea of a "world class" level. For example, a standardized weight pinched by the top ten (or twenty) could be regarded as world class. It also depends on the total sample size. The top ten out of 100 is hardly world class, but the top guy out of 1000 could be I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Sorry, I misunderstood your point I see what you mean now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Is a 500lb C&J not World Class anymore because there are quite a few people who can do it? Be serious, it sure as hell is a Word Class lift. Maybe if more people trained the lift more would accomplish it? HAH! I think if you took the number of people who could close ANY #3 gripper (ie. the HARDER #3's), the feat would still be World Class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Pat, You and Mikael may not be in disagreement: If any world class feat is defined by those best at it, whether 500 lb C&J or closing a 3, then the top level determines world class. So, Mikael is saying, if I now understand it right, that a sample of 'average' untrained people cannot be used to determine a world class feat- because we would then be left with 125 lb C&Js and a #1 level as highest achievement. And we would have a sampling not of world class but of 'average folks' class. Now that the years of observation have shown what the higher levels are in the C&J and in grippers, we can determine goals. My point was that some people may have world class 'raw-boned' strength without ever having trained for a specific feat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I suspect that a couple of years from now we would have a similar situation with pinching two 45's. World class level should be able to withstand the pressure from time by more than a couple of years. If people took as much interest in pinching plates as can be seen in the influx of new #3 COC closers then I suspect that you're right. But should the 'world class' bar be raised prematurely simply because we anticipate better things to come? What if they never do? Sample size is definitely a factor here but of the ~1400 members of this board how many can pinch 45's? Of course, that question enters us into the realm of standardized equipment. I can't even pinch the 35's that I own, yet have done over 180 in the two hand pinch in competition. For even better correlation, I do top out at about 140-145 in the two-hand pinch on my plates. Another topic altogether though... BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I suspect that a couple of years from now we would have a similar situation with pinching two 45's. World class level should be able to withstand the pressure from time by more than a couple of years. If people took as much interest in pinching plates as can be seen in the influx of new #3 COC closers then I suspect that you're right. But should the 'world class' bar be raised prematurely simply because we anticipate better things to come? What if they never do? Sample size is definitely a factor here but of the ~1400 members of this board how many can pinch 45's? Of course, that question enters us into the realm of standardized equipment. I can't even pinch the 35's that I own, yet have done over 180 in the two hand pinch in competition. For even better correlation, I do top out at about 140-145 in the two-hand pinch on my plates. Another topic altogether though... BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bender Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 What about the comment that "world class" is usualy 75% of the poundage of the world-record lift? Tom Black noted that among world class athletes, the bottom finishers are usualy pressing/pulling/pinching 75% of the 1st place winner's max. Just something to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3Crusher Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I echo terminator's thoughts. I also would love to see Ironmind put asterisks next to those on the CoC list who certified on a #3 or #4 with either hand. There are not too many CoC's who can close a #3 with either their right or left hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Black Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Bender, I'm glad you made the comment regarding the 75% that I mentioned in my article years ago. I don't feel it's not my opinion about the 75% number, its a fact that the bottom finishers in World class competition are about 75% of the winners. Check any Milo and you will see consistent numbers (especially in the larger fields and competition). It's my opinion that if a person is in a world competition then they are a world class athlete, an arguable point, but I think a good one. Keep in mind that lifting organizations have qualifying totals for different levels, wouldn't an international qualification total be a world class total? BTW, I don't see many people doing 75% of David's Current record on a 2" appartus, most strong guys would be happy with 60% of his numbers (I think 75% is around 108-pounds). Bottom line, just a bunch of numbers anyway Lift hard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I suspect that a couple of years from now we would have a similar situation with pinching two 45's. World class level should be able to withstand the pressure from time by more than a couple of years. If people took as much interest in pinching plates as can be seen in the influx of new #3 COC closers then I suspect that you're right. But should the 'world class' bar be raised prematurely simply because we anticipate better things to come? What if they never do? Sample size is definitely a factor here but of the ~1400 members of this board how many can pinch 45's? Of course, that question enters us into the realm of standardized equipment. I can't even pinch the 35's that I own, yet have done over 180 in the two hand pinch in competition. For even better correlation, I do top out at about 140-145 in the two-hand pinch on my plates. Another topic altogether though... BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Powerlifters have a far stronger grip than the average gym guy. Grippers are very specific and require good technique. Being good at grippers does not mean you have a good grip in general. In fact grippers are squeezing. Hanging onto a heavy bar deadlifting is grip. Ok smart ass, we were talking about grippers. So, sqeezing has nothing to do with grip. Ok, I would like readers of this forum to read the last few posts and decide what and what was not appropriate in this dialogue. I am curious as to what atmosphere you the readers think is appropriate. Thanks. Since only one person or two addressed this, I will tell you this.... This type of "reaction" to a post has not and will not be tolerated. So, I would suggest those who want to react this way in the future go elsewhere. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikael Siversson Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Is a 500lb C&J not World Class anymore because there are quite a few people who can do it? Be serious, it sure as hell is a Word Class lift.Maybe if more people trained the lift more would accomplish it? HAH! I think if you took the number of people who could close ANY #3 gripper (ie. the HARDER #3's), the feat would still be World Class. First one needs to define the term "world class". It obviously means different things to different people. At this point I would consider closing a hard #3 with either hand world class for example. Closing a #4 is, as far as we know?, beyond world class (in the one hand only testing category). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikael Siversson Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I think there are enough people out there doing grippers ultra-seriously for us to recognise world class level (more or less). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Steve, Yes it would be helpful if an asterisk indicated mastery of a gripper with each hand. Wannagrip, Is there something you could do on the board here to indicate double prowess? Why wait for someone else to do it elsewhere? Call it ambidextrous gripper master or somesuch? How many men would this involve currently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 My take was always that a COC SHOULD be able to do a close with EITHER hand. That was always my goal. Seems punky actually to be able to close a 3 with your dom hand and then whip out a 2 and close it off hand. Ugggh. Just my personal opinion. Can't all COC's close a 3 with either hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Can't all COC's close a 3 with either hand? I think it's a relatively low number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Similarly, many can deadlift the Inch with their stronger hand, and of course, many are stronger pinchers with one hand rather than the other. But I like Wannagrip's leaning: Otherwise, we may need a left hand and a right hand listing. Just kidding, just kidding! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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