Supplements

[The Natural]

After months of using very expensive, name-brand protein and creatine (NO type) supplements, I decided to try generic whey concentrate protein. The cheapest stuff I could find.

Guess what?

NOTHING HAPPENED!

For the past three months, my strength gains have not slowed one bit. If anything, my gains have improved (though I attribute this to smarter training, not supplements). Overall, my diet has stayed almost exactly the same as it was before I swtiched.

Five days ago, I decided to add another phase to this experiment. I'm keeping the generic whey protein, and will be adding a generic creatine powder. I'll be testing to see if this improves anything. My prediction is that it won't help one bit, but I'm keeping an open mind.

-Rex

[naturalstrength]

It's called the "Placebo" effect!

[Magnus]

I love reading the labels of various brands. I get an immense amount of enjoyment out of it. I bet none of you guys have creatine that's biomedically engineered with nitric oxide activators and anabolic cofactors clinically proven to give explosive gains in size and strength in just days (*,**,***,†).

I've only ever used generic creatine, though I have recently switched brands, and found the newer one (more expensive, $13 vs. $18) to be much better. That's still generic vs. generic, though.

I used to use a generic whey, but switched to EAS only because I could actually get it cheaper pound-for-pound than the generic. Saw no difference in gains.

[Guest Bullitt]

Just switched to "generic creatine" from the expensive stuff a couple weeks ago. Haven't seen a drop in strength. If anything, I seem to be hitting more PRs since. Biggest difference is this stuff tastes like battery acid compared to the name brand that was 3X the price.

[Magnus]

Just switched to "generic creatine" from the expensive stuff a couple weeks ago. Haven't seen a drop in strength. If anything, I seem to be hitting more PRs since. Biggest difference is this stuff tastes like battery acid compared to the name brand that was 3X the price.

Lol, that's exactly how I describe mine. Actually burns all the way down, too.

[MalachiMcMullen]

I used to buy the GNC protein and for awhile used the cheap creatine stuff and bought that NO Explode stuff twice. I never noticed any difference with the protein, never gained any real noticeable weight. I noticed a good increase in endurance while using the creatine though, but no lasting strength gains. I've always made the most progress when I was off of any kind of supplement.

[Magnus]

Yes, just verified that Mike and I are using the same brand, hence the concurring reports of disgusting flavor

[Magnus]

I wouldn't say they don't work, but I would say they're not nearly as phenomenal as they're advertised to be. IMO protein is pretty much protein. Whey just happens to be the easiest to take, and makes it easier to get more in faster. Supplements have advantages over regular food, and by the same token, disadvantages, so I don't think one should replace the other, though I still think the majority of your diet should be actual food.

[ae_yogi]

I am trying an experiment with using a fat-burner. I think it was a waste of money; I am losing fat but not at a rate greater than from before I started to take the supplement. I figure that it is worth the money to experiment with different supplements on occasion.

[climber511]

In any experiment with supplements - only add in one at a time - otherwise it's impossible to tell which is doing (or not doing) what.

[mobsterone]

After months of using very expensive, name-brand protein and creatine (NO type) supplements, I decided to try generic whey concentrate protein. The cheapest stuff I could find.

Guess what?

NOTHING HAPPENED!

For the past three months, my strength gains have not slowed one bit. If anything, my gains have improved (though I attribute this to smarter training, not supplements). Overall, my diet has stayed almost exactly the same as it was before I swtiched.

Five days ago, I decided to add another phase to this experiment. I'm keeping the generic whey protein, and will be adding a generic creatine powder. I'll be testing to see if this improves anything. My prediction is that it won't help one bit, but I'm keeping an open mind.

-Rex

Just so we're clear. Did you stop between switches or did you carry on and merely switch from named brand to a generic brand. Cos if it's the 2nd why so surprised. Brands do not mean anything. It's just a name.

[The Natural]

After months of using very expensive, name-brand protein and creatine (NO type) supplements, I decided to try generic whey concentrate protein. The cheapest stuff I could find.

Guess what?

NOTHING HAPPENED!

For the past three months, my strength gains have not slowed one bit. If anything, my gains have improved (though I attribute this to smarter training, not supplements). Overall, my diet has stayed almost exactly the same as it was before I swtiched.

Five days ago, I decided to add another phase to this experiment. I'm keeping the generic whey protein, and will be adding a generic creatine powder. I'll be testing to see if this improves anything. My prediction is that it won't help one bit, but I'm keeping an open mind.

-Rex

Just so we're clear. Did you stop between switches or did you carry on and merely switch from named brand to a generic brand. Cos if it's the 2nd why so surprised. Brands do not mean anything. It's just a name.

I stopped using creatine altogether near the end of July. I only started using it again about ten days ago. During the time I was not using it, I noticed nothing in terms of strength loss. I did continue to take protein, however, during that time, switching from an expesnive brand to a cheaper generic brand. I have been taking protein indefinitely for years and do not plan to ever stop taking it.

-Rex

[mobsterone]

Yeah, I remember Eric once saying "The only supplements that I think actually work are those that are illegal. Other than that, it's just eating a lot of quality food, drinking lots of water, and getting plenty of rest." Hard to argue with that.

-Rex

Remind me how big Eric is again?? Rex was 290 in June and I was 280 or thereabouts. Isn't Eric 200 or so? It's easy to knock something when you may have expected miracles from it and I agree that ads give that impression but if he doesn't eat more - supplements or food - he will not grow. Making some 'knowing' statement when he's not eating enough to grow on gives it no value at all.

Getting bigger than you are right now isn't at all complicated. Sure there are those that do it easily and those that struggle but with most it's = eat more grow = eat less lose weight. Loads of 'I can't grow' don't eat enough.

Supplements are (as a seller) just supplementing a decent diet. If you weigh 200lbs and eat enough calories to go about your daily business and in the diet is enough (say 200g) protein to maintain that size and strength then do not be too surprised if the super duper whiz bang brand and food you get that 200g from doesn't make you bigger. IF, however, you ADD more calories and ADD more protein (from either source) then ANY good protein will do the job.

Rex's ''study'' means bugger all. Did he ADD more calories or ADD more protein above what he'd been using before? If no... then cue the look of shock on my handsome visage. In fact for a guy (and group of guys) who study at college and universities etc and can work out that adding weight to a bar makes you stronger why would we expect a change of brand name to generic product to mean anything??

[mobsterone]

After months of using very expensive, name-brand protein and creatine (NO type) supplements, I decided to try generic whey concentrate protein. The cheapest stuff I could find.

Guess what?

NOTHING HAPPENED!

For the past three months, my strength gains have not slowed one bit. If anything, my gains have improved (though I attribute this to smarter training, not supplements). Overall, my diet has stayed almost exactly the same as it was before I swtiched.

Five days ago, I decided to add another phase to this experiment. I'm keeping the generic whey protein, and will be adding a generic creatine powder. I'll be testing to see if this improves anything. My prediction is that it won't help one bit, but I'm keeping an open mind.

-Rex

Just so we're clear. Did you stop between switches or did you carry on and merely switch from named brand to a generic brand. Cos if it's the 2nd why so surprised. Brands do not mean anything. It's just a name.

I stopped using creatine altogether near the end of July. I only started using it again about ten days ago. During the time I was not using it, I noticed nothing in terms of strength loss. I did continue to take protein, however, during that time, switching from an expesnive brand to a cheaper generic brand. I have been taking protein indefinitely for years and do not plan to ever stop taking it.

-Rex

The NO type are, in my opinion, at best good for little more than a slight increase in your pump. As you give no info on your diet during the time off of creatine (regardless of type) if you enjoyed a higher amount of red meat, or trained differently, then why expect a difference? You know that in order to get a true result from a 'study' (lets be fair, what you did was not a study by any stretch) all other parameters need to remain as they were. Time after time I'll ask a few questions outside of the info given and we find that these parameters were not constant.

If you're crazy enough to drive around with then in your gym bag in your car (why??) then by all means go hand yourself in now. That said this is not a how to break the law and get away with it (not illegal here... yet) thread so enough on that topic.

Edited October 23, 2009 by mobsterone

[The Natural]

The relevant conditionals are as follows

If you stop taking Wonder Creatine and switch to regular creatine, everything else being equal, you'll lose strength/size. I think any company of Wonder Creatine would have to agree to this if pushed (at least those that really stand by their products).

If you stop taking Wonder Protein and switch to generic protein, everything else being equal, you'll lose strength/size. Again, if you don't affirm that, I have a hard time seeing why you'd think your Wonder Protein is relevant to performance.

Both of those are false in my case.

There's also another false one in my case.

If you stop taking creatine altogether, whether it be Wonder Creatine or regular creatine, you'll lose strength/size, other things being equal.

Steve seems to be questioning whether other things have remained equal. As far as I can tell, they have. Aaron and Paul can tell you how consistent and boring my diet is. My training is very much the same too.

Bodyweight is still around 292.

This isn't mean to suggest that it won't work for others. But I think it does indicate that supplement claims are not nearly as absolute as they sound.

-Rex

[jad]

But I think it does indicate that supplement claims are not nearly as absolute as they sound.

Yah think Most of them say right on the bottle something to the effect of "these statements not approved by the FDA".

[The Natural]

The NO type are, in my opinion, at best good for little more than a slight increase in your pump. As you give no info on your diet during the time off of creatine (regardless of type) if you enjoyed a higher amount of red meat, or trained differently, then why expect a difference?

A possibility that I had not considered is that I consume so much red meat per day that taking creatine is a waste. For months, it has been only one large serving per day. About a pound per day, I guess. I don't know if that's enough to supply me with all I could possibly absorb.

-Rex

[mobsterone]

In your earlier statement, hence the question then, it was indicated that you had STOPPED (even if for a time) use of either product. That/those time scales were not indicated. That said I DO agree and said so that use of super duper brand versions do NOT mean greater gains over generic products. Buying US based magazines I'm fully aware of the implied effects all the added super duper bells and whistles MAY add to the absorption of product X protein or product Y creatine but there it is - it's a MAY as opposed to WILL and they use the 'effects differ in individuals' as a get out clause. Some of the extra added ingredients do work in the lab but often are not added in the same quantities. This is covered by such phrases as 'our product includes ingredient X which has been shown in studies to be better than/or greater than'. Careful reading of the small print finds less than is needed to get the same result. As bad is the 'when tested was shown to be 100% better than baseline' or similar phrase. Baseline can be taken to mean than NOTHING in which case a dog turd might be 50% better or, at best, than not using the product at all. 100% can be 1g over baseline as opposed to a doubling of bodyweight (ie: what you weighed plus 100%) and so on.

Just today I asked a similar question on another forum. They were discussing several well-known brand name creatine products and one rival company makes a version of their own which is similar to one of the bigger selling brand names. I asked 'how much better is it than just standard mono'?? 5%?? 10%? At double or worse than the bog standard product I want better than 5% improvements. I have yet to see ANYONE suggest that they get noticeably stronger using a bells and whistles fancy label type product over the plain Jane type.

[Guest Bullitt]

The NO type are, in my opinion, at best good for little more than a slight increase in your pump. As you give no info on your diet during the time off of creatine (regardless of type) if you enjoyed a higher amount of red meat, or trained differently, then why expect a difference?

A possibility that I had not considered is that I consume so much red meat per day that taking creatine is a waste. For months, it has been only one large serving per day. About a pound per day, I guess. I don't know if that's enough to supply me with all I could possibly absorb.

-Rex

A pound per day would give you around 2 - 3g of creatine. You also get some from certain fish. Plus your body can synthesize creatine from amino acids. Another factor to consider on the creatine front is that studies have shown that 20 - 30% (depending on the study) of people do not respond to creatine suplementation. This can be for a variety of reasons (the main one being, they already get the max amount their body can store from there diet, but there are other factors). You may be one of those people Rex. If you never responded to it in the first place, it wouldn't be surprising to learn that removing it from your supplement stack didn't hurt your strength.

You were just pooping and peeing $40 worth of cretine and creatinine down the loo every month.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Bullitt

[mobsterone]

The NO type are, in my opinion, at best good for little more than a slight increase in your pump. As you give no info on your diet during the time off of creatine (regardless of type) if you enjoyed a higher amount of red meat, or trained differently, then why expect a difference?

A possibility that I had not considered is that I consume so much red meat per day that taking creatine is a waste. For months, it has been only one large serving per day. About a pound per day, I guess. I don't know if that's enough to supply me with all I could possibly absorb.

-Rex

A pound per day would give you around 3g of creatine. You also get some from certain fish. Another factor to consider on the creatine front is that studies have shown that 20 - 30% (depending on the study) of people do not respond to creatine suplementation. This can be for a variety of reasons (the main one being, they already get the max amount their body can store from there diet, but there are other factors). You may be one of those people Rex. If you never responded to it in the first place, it wouldn't be surprising to learn that removing it from your supplement stack didn't hurt your strength.

You were just pooping and peeing $40 worth of creatine and creatinine down the loo every month.

Wrong. A quick look suggest 1-2g per pound red meat. He hasn't indicated how long his down time was either. All protein rich foods will contain some level of creatine so it is entirely possible he was getting close to the 5g per day suggested. Dorian Yates stated in his book he got nothing from creatine supplementation but a look at his diet showed 400g of whole food source protein per day inc powders etc. That he later went on to sell it... well.

I'm about to eat a little under a pound of pork sausages. They contain 17.7g or protein per 100g. That means if I eat them all I'll get 70.8g of protein. I never use more than a teaspoon of supplemental creatine and it's as plain a brand as you can get. American, as a whole, are reputed to eat a high protein diet (Rex's is. I've seen him eat) so will be getting a decent enough dose daily regardless of source.

Edited October 23, 2009 by mobsterone

[Incindium]

1lb of red meat contains approx 1.8g of creatine. Considering that creatine in red meat is probably absorbed better than from powder you well could be getting enough in your diet to keep your muscle creatine stores saturated.

[Guest Bullitt]

The NO type are, in my opinion, at best good for little more than a slight increase in your pump. As you give no info on your diet during the time off of creatine (regardless of type) if you enjoyed a higher amount of red meat, or trained differently, then why expect a difference?

A possibility that I had not considered is that I consume so much red meat per day that taking creatine is a waste. For months, it has been only one large serving per day. About a pound per day, I guess. I don't know if that's enough to supply me with all I could possibly absorb.

-Rex

A pound per day would give you around 3g of creatine. You also get some from certain fish. Another factor to consider on the creatine front is that studies have shown that 20 - 30% (depending on the study) of people do not respond to creatine suplementation. This can be for a variety of reasons (the main one being, they already get the max amount their body can store from there diet, but there are other factors). You may be one of those people Rex. If you never responded to it in the first place, it wouldn't be surprising to learn that removing it from your supplement stack didn't hurt your strength.

You were just pooping and peeing $40 worth of creatine and creatinine down the loo every month.

Wrong. A quick look suggest 1-2g per pound red meat. He hasn't indicated how long his down time was either. All protein rich foods will contain some level of creatine so it is entirely possible he was getting close to the 5g per day suggested. Dorian Yates stated in his book he got nothing from creatine supplementation but a look at his diet showed 400g of whole food source protein per day inc powders etc. That he later went on to sell it... well.

Yep, you're right. I checked and my old mind wasn't remembering correctly. 1 - 2g. If you are getting 300 - 400g of animal based protein a day, then I agree, you are probably getting all you would need.

Dorian wasn't just a hard working beast, he knows where the money is.

[mobsterone]

Dorian's book, much loved (inc by me) was at best merely a 'here's what I did' rather than a great insight into what works for everyone (much like Rex's ''study''). If, as per articles etc on creatine and it's effect, time scales and the like we accept the data on how long before it's replaced during and after a workout then Dorian's brief but brutal workouts will use up little more than an hours worth. The weights lifted do not, as far as I know, affect depletion (not studied and difficult to do so) and the amount 'lost' or used metabolically will be small in an hour or so (about the length of his workouts).

I suspect Rex would notice a loss of strength far more from dehydration where he trains (we all would but not all of us train in Texas heat) than any change of product. He'd notice it within 30 minute never mind a week or three.

I've just remembered that Rex and I had a chat with one of the guys over breakfast on supplemental use pre the Chad event. Plain and simple works best guys!!

Edited October 23, 2009 by mobsterone

[John Beatty]

I haven't tried many supplements, I usually use a cheap brand, or Muscle milk when it's 40% off at Vitamin World. I only use about 1/2-3/4 of a scoop, and I gain when I train better. Period. I think good sleep, good food, and good training is the path, supplements only if you don't eat the way we all should.

[The Natural]

Dorian's book, much loved (inc by me) was at best merely a 'here's what I did' rather than a great insight into what works for everyone (much like Rex's ''study''). If, as per articles etc on creatine and it's effect, time scales and the like we accept the data on how long before it's replaced during and after a workout then Dorian's brief but brutal workouts will use up little more than an hours worth. The weights lifted do not, as far as I know, affect depletion (not studied and difficult to do so) and the amount 'lost' or used metabolically will be small in an hour or so (about the length of his workouts).

I suspect Rex would notice a loss of strength far more from dehydration where he trains (we all would but not all of us train in Texas heat) than any change of product. He'd notice it within 30 minute never mind a week or three.

I've just remembered that Rex and I had a chat with one of the guys over breakfast on supplemental use pre the Chad event. Plain and simple works best guys!!

I was actually curious about these points too. Are certain rep ranges going to benefit more from creatine use than others? It seems like a set of 20 rep squats would benefit more than ten singles. I always hear that creatine is supposed to 'help you get that last rep'. But if you're working with 90 percent, nothing legal is going to instantly take you from two reps to three. The 'helps you add a rep' idea becomes more plausible with rep ranges beyond 5.

-Rex