Ronnie Coleman Grip Challenge

[Paul Knight]

Teddy, Derek, Etc.

Chase said that playing baseball for many years helped his grip, and that he does not use straps on deadlift. My point was that he claims to do no grip specific training, and we all know how big of a difference that makes--"indirect" training of grip is comparitively nothing to serious grip-specific training, as the common phenomenon of huge increases in grip strength when starting grip-specific training shows, even for guys who lifted and played sports all along. You can tell yourself "Oh, he has been training grip for years; he's been playing sports and doesn't use straps!" but I think we all know that's straining.

Steve

Yeah, "usually" six years, as in, six years being the mean and 2-10+ years being the range (Remember, this means six years of SPECIFIC training). Nobody in their right mind would allow the range to start at ZERO. Has anybody achieved an Olympic Gold Medal with NO training? What about a Pulitzer Prize? A Fields Medal? A grandmaster ranking in chess? A Nobel? Even in fields where prodigies are common--music, chess, math, etc.--nobody achieves something genuinely world class with no specific training at all. The prodigies start off at elite and work up from there. That people are so quick to attribute world class feats in grip to those with no training just indicates that grip still has some growing up to do. Remember, the really world class in any field are those with great talent and lots of training. If someone is getting by on just innate ability alone, you can bet that the talent pool is small and that "world-class" really has no place in the vocabulary of those in that field.

Paul

The Ronnie Coleman was not over-run with elite athletes, sorry to say. That wasn't a Mr. Olympia show we watched. That powerlifting comp wasn't an IPF world championship. Most of the guys there were just recreational gym rats who had nothing better to do that Saturday. For every guy who lifted one of the items, I could point out two or three with a pot belly. I agree it was a more strength-oriented class of folks than what you would find at the mall, but nothing nothing of the sort that would explain what we witnessed.

Let me go over this again: 1/500,000 to be world class. Fifty or so guys try the thing before Chase does it. Now, we *could* explain this if we were at an event where many world class guys strength athletes were gathered. The idea with that would be to say that anywhere between 1/10 guys there have a world class grip (a really powerful explanation if true, but not likely to ever be true) to, let's say, 1/5,000 guys ("Iinteresting that we found one of them so fast, but not surprising.") But based on the guys I saw try the challenge, the Ronnie is just not like that. They were for the most part just guys who lifted weights to stay in shape. Even the powerlifters and armwrestlers who showed up to compete did not try the challenge, putting aside how elite they are, so we've got background knowledge that rules out that they tried it. Chase himself admits that he just lifts to look good, be generally strong, etc. As far as I can tell, he's not a national or international level competitior in any strength sport. Just a really strong guy, the sort you find at Metroflex. So if we want to explain it with this, we're going to have to say the Ronnie is something that it just isn't. Chase has an elite grip, no doubt. 1/10,000, let's say. That's much easier to explain and still gives him big props (BIG).

The six years for mastery claim was mentioned in a performance psychology class I took in college, and I've read it before in at least two other places. I might be able to find something online if Google enough.

-Rex

Rex, it was coincidental, otherwise you would hear more reports form Wade about random people completing the Grip Gauntlet .......... thousands upon thousands of people have tried the Grip Gauntlet over the years and there is only a hand-full of people who have completed it - can you explain that? and don't try to say that the Arnold doesn't have WC strength atheletes there

P.S. didn't Mr. Olympia put on a show there (the current Mr. Olympia) or was I hallucinating?

Edited April 19, 2009 by Paul Knight

[Hubgeezer]

The original Thomas Inch Dumbbell, if I am not mistaken, was hauled out by Thomas Inch each year, and it was supposedly 40 years before anyone could move it an inch upwards, with allegedly 20,000 trying along the way. Whether it was 31 years, or 14,500 attempts, can be debated.

As far as the general population goes, I cannot see Chase being less than a one in 20,0000 for the feats he did. That is not close to one in a million, it may not be world class, but he is definitely one strong boy, and this whole thing makes a great story to talk about.

Edited April 19, 2009 by Hubgeezer

[mightyjoe]

Concerning WC athletes at RCC. Michael Todd is WC all the way.

He tried the Metroflex DB and my Elite gripper and came no where close.

The DB never left the floor. A second attempt on the gripper came down to

about 3/8".

I think all on the GB realize Michael Todd's specialty is arm wrestling but

Michael Todd can lift some pretty insane weights too. Insane to me anyway.

[climber511]

If you were a spectator that just happened to walk in and watch Chads upcoming contest - you might come away with a somewhat skewed view of grip strength. At another level - my HS kids think I am a grip God because they saw Jedd's Diesel video of me doing 5 - 10s and 2 - 45s. What is strong is in the eyes and experiences of the beholder. And I think those of us here suffer from the same thing - the group that we know, watch, and lift with are not a normal group of guys (even for strength guys). I think it takes much more for us to consider something WC in grip than it does for the more general population. The list of people for can do these feats is pretty small still - but does that make it WC - maybe and maybe not - but it ain't bad either

[Bob Lipinski]

So, let's say a top level strongman totals 2600 his first PL meet. HE HAD NEVER DONE A PL MEET!!!! Does that make 2600 any less world class? Say this person never trained in PL equipment before, and took 1 year in it.

The above is 100% possible. There is tremendous crossover in all strength sports. Grip, due to it's relatively new status, will see standards rise very fast.

Rex, can we have you argue which way is up next? How about the whole chicken and egg thing?

Here is one Rex- One guy 2 hand pinches 235 and another does 255. Your job is to argue that the guy who lifted 235 actually did more weight than the other guy!

[Bob Lipinski]

Well shit, on second thought, in The Coleman challenge, what is world class, IMO-

Inch- Maybe. This bar would be reset the more big guys who train grip

Blob- No

RT+vbar- definitely not

Hub- Depending on the hub

Sledge- No

2 45's- This could go either way. It's on the verge. And, it depends on the 45's.

[Paul Knight]

Well shit, on second thought, in The Coleman challenge, what is world class, IMO-

Inch- Maybe. This bar would be reset the more big guys who train grip

Blob- No

RT+vbar- definitely not

Hub- Depending on the hub

Sledge- No

2 45's- This could go either way. It's on the verge. And, it depends on the 45's.

he actually did the blob w/2 fingers, if that makes a difference and I forgot to mention he bent a St. Croix Ultralite #2 Barehanded to 90 degrees and then tossed it on the ground ....... and he didn't bend it like we're used to seeing - I don't remember how he did it .... it looked like he just muscled it without any technique

[The Natural]

I see everyone has conveniently ignored the quote I provided....

Grip is a special field. Unlike other fields, which require many years of specific training to reach world class status, people can come into grip and achieve world class feats with no specific training at all. This must be because grip attracts the cream of the genetic crop.

Bob:

The strongman you describe would have done years of squatting, deadlifting, and benching. In other words, he would have done years of specific training for powerlifting.

(Boy, that was easy to refute...)

Paul:

Mr. Olympia was there, yes. That does not increase the chances of guys with world class grip showing up. It does increase the likelihood of gym rats showing up, however. Guys who read Flex Magazine and watch 300 over and over.

-Rex

[climber511]

Well shit, on second thought, in The Coleman challenge, what is world class, IMO-

Inch- Maybe. This bar would be reset the more big guys who train grip

Blob- No

RT+vbar- definitely not

Hub- Depending on the hub

Sledge- No

2 45's- This could go either way. It's on the verge. And, it depends on the 45's.

he actually did the blob w/2 fingers, if that makes a difference and I forgot to mention he bent a St. Croix Ultralite #2 Barehanded to 90 degrees and then tossed it on the ground ....... and he didn't bend it like we're used to seeing - I don't remember how he did it .... it looked like he just muscled it without any technique

He sounds like a seriously strong guy all around - any idea what any of his other lifts are - deadlift - squat - bench etc. Bodybuilders - some are pumpers and some just keep adding plates to the bar over time - one group gets very very strong given some time and the other not as much. My bet is this dude is all over strong as heck.

Arguing with Rex is not a strength exercise but an endurance feat - that boy can (and will) argue forever.

Edited April 19, 2009 by climber511

[vikingsrule92]

Arguing with Rex is not a strength exercise but an endurance feat - that boy can (and will) argue forever.

Even when sometimes there is an abundance of evidence and nearly every single person on the board against his point of view, as has happened several times in the past.

[The Natural]

Arguing with Rex is not a strength exercise but an endurance feat - that boy can (and will) argue forever.

Even when sometimes there is an abundance of evidence and nearly every single person on the board against his point of view, as has happened several times in the past.

If there's such an abundance of evidence, where is it, Derek? Bob Lipinski's brainless example? The idea that the Ronnie is overspilling with Laine Snooks?

The Argument, Repeated

FACT: Every other competitive field requires many years of specific training to reach world class status.

Yet people in grip attribute world class status to guys who have never done grip specific training, to feats that can be performed by those who don't do grip specific training. They are claiming that grip is somehow special.

Who can step up and explain this to me? What makes grip special? Could it be that it's too inchoate for "world class" to even be used? Might that not be more plausible?

-Rex

[MalachiMcMullen]

So then Rex, Andy Bolton pulled 500lbs without ever training the deadlift before. Therefore, 500lbs is not world class for anyone of any size or dimensions.

[Hubgeezer]

The Argument, Repeated

FACT: Every other competitive field requires many years of specific training to reach world class status.

-Rex

I forgot. When Jeremy Wariner won the 400 Meter run in Athens, was he 20 or 21?

Oh, that's right. He was born in 1984. He was 20. As a matter of fact, he even may have finished his second year of college by the time he won that Olympic Gold Medal. I bet there were World Class coaches training him for many years by that time. Grammar school, middle school, etc.

When did Kevin Nee make it to his first World's Strongest Man contest? Now did he start playing high school basketball before or after Strongman? I am not sure about that one.

I am not sure why people are called "brainless" when some aburd statements are thrown out so confidently and passionately.

[vikingsrule92]

Rex, I said "in the past." You can argue but apparently you're not the best at reading posts that you're arguing against. There is no clear cut evidence for either side because in order to argue either side we must agree on a common warrant of what is considered to be "World Class." That being said the reason people can come from little direct grip training and do "elite" grip feats is because .... wait for it... wait for it.... THEY DO TRAIN THEIR GRIP!!! Hands are involved in essentially every sport, and what happens when you use your hands a lot Rex? They get stronger. And what happens when your hands get stronger Rex? You can do harder stuff with them. So, the reason people can come off the street and do high quality grip stuff is because THEY TRAIN THEIR GRIP WHICH MAKES IT STRONGER WHICH MAKES THEM STRONGER AT GRIP STUFF. This is why its easier to come from "nowhere" and do "elite" grip feats because they AREN'T coming out of nowhere! If someone worked on a farm and lifted hay bales from when they were 10 to 30 and doing other assorted strenuous labor tasks and they were very built then they came to a PL comp and deadlifted 600 would that make it not elite? No, it's just that they have been indirectly training for that lift all of their life and they are built for the lift (an allusion to big handed individuals) so they are naturally good at it once they learn technique. I know you won't likely listen to this argument or agree with me because you will never accept being wrong but I thought I'd get my opinion out there.

[Bob Lipinski]

Rex- Holding on to a heavy barbell works the grip good. For example, an exercise like the "One Hand Deadlift" is a good test of grip. This is very similar to an exercise called the "Dumbell Row". Other exercises like the "Deadlift" and "Chinup" can provide a good crosstraining effect. Done heavy enough and for enough years, I would hesitate to say that such a person has an "Untrained" grip.

[Bob Lipinski]

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...739/1/index.htm

Men's open world record at age 16.

http://www.olympic.org/uk/athletes/profile...?PAR_I_ID=61224

Men's open world record at age 15.

The Argument, Repeated

FACT: Every other competitive field requires many years of specific training to reach world class status.

Rex, you are wrong. In summary, 1. some people are world class with little specific training, and 2. the people in mention had some sort of decent specific training. Lighter weight classes have the same problem that grip does- Not a huge base of participation. As participants climb, so will notions of world class. Maybe I'm not as brainless as you think?

Again, especially in strength training, where fields overlap. A good PL becomes a good weightlifter becomes a good strongman. Which in many cases could be a good bodybuilder or grip guy.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Bob Lipinski

[OldGuy]

I do not believe that Chase does not or has not trained grip as he himself claimed. You need a certain amount of technique and skill to do those lifts. I think he was messing with the guys at the grip challenge. Kind of like an experienced boxer entering a toughman competition but claiming he had never boxed before.

[mobsterone]

There are some cool replies here. I went to bed with a couple floating through my mind and reiterate that no comment should be seen as a personal attack. That in mind:

The 10 year (whatever) rule. Disagree. It negates the Chases of this world for a start. Chess Masters, as it was an example that was used, are notoriously snobby. That someone with less than 10 years 'understanding of the nuances' might beat them goes without saying. It can and does happen. That they then need to find a reason to prove why the ten year rule still applies helps them feel better. It might even be true that 10000 hours, ten years, what-have-you, is required to get an understanding of every game, every style, every possible combination but it does not mean a young girl could not get lucky.

Other sports and examples are equally aloof when it comes to learning the ropes of their particular field of endeavour. There are also many who will train from now until doomsday and still not be as good. 100,000 hours and still only so-so.

It's worth mentioning that often when arguing we choose to ignore whole sections supporting another point of view only to focus on any that support ours. Should we be truly balanced we'd way up only the facts.

In this case we establish what is considered by the peer group truly world class feats of strength. To be fair what Chase did is NOT world class. It is damned good and he's seriously strong but I suspect we could agree that there are many here, trained and prepped of course, who could emulate it. I've already said many of the poundages are beatable and indeed Rex et al selected numbers which would be very good tests of 99.9% of those trying.

Once we have the level for what might be considered WC in poundages we then look, as Rex has shown, at the numbers of those from both within and without our group that might be capable. Let's agree, for now, with the 1-10000 number which has been quoted. We have a guy lifting CLOSE to world class level, trying something for the first time and doing very, very well. That's it.

Something I kinda see in myself and perhaps that's where Rex is coming from but without meaning to is thus: the better I get the higher than standard I see or want to see in others. It might negate my own efforts but perhaps it's a kinda strange reverse ego thing 'blimey if I can, loads should'. An example of which is that I am used to seeing the lads in my Whey Gym as 'the lads' and not as the above average strength individuals that they are. The mean average for the two hand pinch in my gym is at least 80-kilos. Now go look at the top 50 two hand pinch list. I think, without checking, 80 still gets you on it (maybe at the bottom now). We've one just outside the 80-kilo mark (77.5) with everyone else above that. Most of them barely, if at all, train the lift just occasionally playing with it every few weeks. But there will be GB members wishing they could do 80. I might be of the mind that 80 is 'f'all really' cos I'm so used to seeing most of my lads doing it. Is 100-kilos world class? Will I see it as 'not all that' as and when I hit 120? Or will I think back to when 100-kilos was a PB and then look at the top 50 all time list and see 100-kilos still gets you in the top 10-15?

[climber511]

There are some cool replies here. I went to bed with a couple floating through my mind and reiterate that no comment should be seen as a personal attack. That in mind:

The 10 year (whatever) rule. Disagree. It negates the Chases of this world for a start. Chess Masters, as it was an example that was used, are notoriously snobby. That someone with less than 10 years 'understanding of the nuances' might beat them goes without saying. It can and does happen. That they then need to find a reason to prove why the ten year rule still applies helps them feel better. It might even be true that 10000 hours, ten years, what-have-you, is required to get an understanding of every game, every style, every possible combination but it does not mean a young girl could not get lucky.

Other sports and examples are equally aloof when it comes to learning the ropes of their particular field of endeavour. There are also many who will train from now until doomsday and still not be as good. 100,000 hours and still only so-so.

It's worth mentioning that often when arguing we choose to ignore whole sections supporting another point of view only to focus on any that support ours. Should we be truly balanced we'd way up only the facts.

In this case we establish what is considered by the peer group truly world class feats of strength. To be fair what Chase did is NOT world class. It is damned good and he's seriously strong but I suspect we could agree that there are many here, trained and prepped of course, who could emulate it. I've already said many of the poundages are beatable and indeed Rex et al selected numbers which would be very good tests of 99.9% of those trying.

Once we have the level for what might be considered WC in poundages we then look, as Rex has shown, at the numbers of those from both within and without our group that might be capable. Let's agree, for now, with the 1-10000 number which has been quoted. We have a guy lifting CLOSE to world class level, trying something for the first time and doing very, very well. That's it.

Something I kinda see in myself and perhaps that's where Rex is coming from but without meaning to is thus: the better I get the higher than standard I see or want to see in others. It might negate my own efforts but perhaps it's a kinda strange reverse ego thing 'blimey if I can, loads should'. An example of which is that I am used to seeing the lads in my Whey Gym as 'the lads' and not as the above average strength individuals that they are. The mean average for the two hand pinch in my gym is at least 80-kilos. Now go look at the top 50 two hand pinch list. I think, without checking, 80 still gets you on it (maybe at the bottom now). We've one just outside the 80-kilo mark (77.5) with everyone else above that. Most of them barely, if at all, train the lift just occasionally playing with it every few weeks. But there will be GB members wishing they could do 80. I might be of the mind that 80 is 'f'all really' cos I'm so used to seeing most of my lads doing it. Is 100-kilos world class? Will I see it as 'not all that' as and when I hit 120? Or will I think back to when 100-kilos was a PB and then look at the top 50 all time list and see 100-kilos still gets you in the top 10-15?

Steve - your last paragraph says what I was trying to say - except you said it perhaps more clearly. World Class seems to always be just a little bit higher than what one can do presently.

[mobsterone]

Cheers. One thing I KNOW is I'm pretty sure that once my numbers start to drop as they must surely do one day I'll be right there at the front claiming what I'll be doing then is pretty damned good

[opnsysme]

I just want to say thanks for the report. That's all.