Top 50 Apollons Axle Do Dl List

[bencrush]

I don't think knurling should be out. The 2" solid thick bar I have has knurling and is one of the more economical options for thick bars. Why would you eliminate a subset of a small group of implements to begin with? Plus I'm not sure the knurling makes anything any easier anyway.

Knurling makes it a good deal easier to hold onto for me at least. I'm not saying knurling is the devil. You're still strong but it gives you more of an advantage than bars that don't have it.

[jad]

I don't think knurling should be out. The 2" solid thick bar I have has knurling and is one of the more economical options for thick bars. Why would you eliminate a subset of a small group of implements to begin with? Plus I'm not sure the knurling makes anything any easier anyway.

Knurling makes it a good deal easier to hold onto for me at least. I'm not saying knurling is the devil. You're still strong but it gives you more of an advantage than bars that don't have it.

If you apply a small coat of oil you can neutralize the knurling, at least for training purposes.

[The Mac]

Um, knurling is the standard for normal deads, depending on grip width - I thought the axle was just testing a larger diameter, not the slippiest barbell - I mean, it would be a great grip test to douse an axle in grease for an event in competiton (in fact, I thought of doing much the same thing), but that would hardly be standard.

[bencrush]

I don't think knurling should be out. The 2" solid thick bar I have has knurling and is one of the more economical options for thick bars. Why would you eliminate a subset of a small group of implements to begin with? Plus I'm not sure the knurling makes anything any easier anyway.

Knurling makes it a good deal easier to hold onto for me at least. I'm not saying knurling is the devil. You're still strong but it gives you more of an advantage than bars that don't have it.

If you apply a small coat of oil you can neutralize the knurling, at least for training purposes.

Totally Josh! OBT at work.

[jad]

Um, knurling is the standard for normal deads, depending on grip width - I thought the axle was just testing a larger diameter, not the slippiest barbell - I mean, it would be a great grip test to douse an axle in grease for an event in competiton (in fact, I thought of doing much the same thing), but that would hardly be standard.

IM AAs do not have knurling.

[Matt Brouse]

Um, knurling is the standard for normal deads, depending on grip width - I thought the axle was just testing a larger diameter, not the slippiest barbell - I mean, it would be a great grip test to douse an axle in grease for an event in competiton (in fact, I thought of doing much the same thing), but that would hardly be standard.

IM AAs do not have knurling.

Yeah, as I understand it the original Axle apparatus was a smooth bar. If we are talking grip then I vote against knurling...on everything. Just basic cold steel.

I'm for the down command. And let me tell you this does NOT work in my advantage.

I'd like to see it done with 45's as the standard.

What do we think about Sumo stance stuff? Not sure how much that would help b/c of the hand contact with the thighs but it's something to think about...

[The Mac]

Yes, I Know Axles have no knurling......

[bencrush]

What do we think about Sumo stance stuff? Not sure how much that would help b/c of the hand contact with the thighs but it's something to think about...

Sumo is the only way I pull, the few times a year I do the lift. You're right though that at the top it helps pin the hands to the body. But you still have to control the bar to the bottom.

[Bob Lipinski]

Whatever you get pinning your hands with sumo, you can lose by dragging them up your body.

Also, that brings up another point- Hitching should not be allowed. Strongman usually allows it, but it would lead to all kinds of cheating in testing grip.

[Matt Brouse]

Whatever you get pinning your hands with sumo, you can lose by dragging them up your body.

That was more my point...no way could I do axle work sumo stance.

And I'm with you on the hitching...nope. Basically, anything designed to make the lift easier (i.e. knurling, lack of down command, etc.) should be a big no. That kind of defeats the point and I think in the long run it will lead to logistical and judging disasters. A lift or a feat should be clearly accomplished, leaving no doubt in anyone's mind.

Edited July 21, 2008 by Matt Brouse

[Bob Lipinski]

This again is all assuming that we want Euro style standardization of the axle. Jedd and David Horne should be consulted.

I don't see anything against sumo. I have done it with the axle every comp. The weight is usually light enough to let me float it forward a bit.

[odin]

I think Sumo style should stay. I'm built to pull regular style, but some guys are not. I don't think they should be penalized unless someone presents a case that Sumo gives an unfair advantage (against the spirit of the lift).

[Matt Brouse]

Excellent points. I agree.

[MalachiMcMullen]

Excellent points. I agree.

Indubidably.

So then, a full, legal lift of the axle must be performed on an unknurled 2.0" bar with knuckles forward. No hitching, Down signal, and no grip aids beyond chalk. Drops do not count.

That would automatically exclude almost every strongman comp I can think of but then again, they aren't too concerned with making their events purely grip events

Edited July 21, 2008 by MalachiMcMullen

[mike landrich]

Why, if the lift is about grip, does the height of the pick make a difference?

[MalachiMcMullen]

Why, if the lift is about grip, does the height of the pick make a difference?

The range of motion is what matters. If the bar is set at 16" instead of standard 45 height, then the athlete wont have to stop the rotation for as long as someone else would. There are a lot of guys who can pull 350+ on the axle from knee height but not too many who can do that from the standard 45 height. I can actually lift 300 that way, but failed on 293 today off the floor.

I think, too, that this is to try and avoid making the axle event look like the Table Top Wrist Curl where there is less than 1" range of movement. That is an extreme but you have to consider all possibilities.

Edited July 21, 2008 by MalachiMcMullen

[burkhardmacht]

I try to summarize the rules discussed - combining them with my explanations and opinions:

1. The Ironmind Apollons Axle has to be used.

I think it's necessary to have absolute the same equipment if You try to compare anything (we reached this level of standardization already with the 2HP and it is good i think). Furthermore the IM Axle is widely known and accepted in Strongmen and Grip contests. One last point: I'm nearly absolute sure that it makes a difference if You use a hollow or a solid bar - IMO the solid bar is easier to lift because much more weight is concentrated in the center of the bar (less in the plates) and so the rotation is less.

2. No knurling.

This goes hand in hand with point 1.! For sure we have to use a bar without knurling. No knurling because it's a grip lift. I have to admit that the IM Axle has not much in common with Apollons famous wheels but the most relevant factor is the surface which is smooth on both implements.

3. The biggest plates are 45 pound plates or 20kg plates.

For sure we have to use plates!! IMO tires have nothing to do with barbells!! Furthermore it would be more than complicated to always measure the tires to be sure that they are not too big. Again, the variation has to be zero - so plates are the most simple solution. Another point is the range of motion: especially this lift (which IMO is THE classic grip lift which tells You the most about someones hand and overall strength) should not be a partial movement. It's simply more difficult to lift it to full lockout (beside this the DO Axle DL is a deadlift with a thick bar - so why reduce the range of motion??

4. Calibrated plates only.

They are better for comparison. If lifts with non calibrated plates are made, those lifts has to be marked with a * .

5. Only double overhand grip allowed.

For sure - because it's a grip lift!

6. No hook grip allowed

Explanation like point 5.!

7. Sumo and conventional style allowed.

The pinning of thumbs at the top of the movement perhaps helps a bit when waiting for the down signal but not to come to full lockout. If You do not control the weight really after the down signal You can't lower the weight under control (see point 8.).

8. Lowering the weight under control.

This makes sure that the possible influence of thumb pinning was not too big. It shows that You have complete control over the weight which is always good - especially in grip lifts!

9. No hitching

This reduces or eliminates the chance of faking.

10. Lifts with "Down Signal"

Assures that the referee decides if the lift was good (or not) and not the athlete (more comparable lifts also!) ! A competition in which the athlete decides if his job was good or not is a questionable competition!

11. Only chalk allowed as grip aid.

Do I really have to explain this?

This seems to be a lot of rules and I wasn't completely aware of them before writing them down - but in practice I always do the lifts after these rules (except calibrated weights) and they are perfectly natural.

[Bob Lipinski]

As long as "in control of the bar" means that your hands stay on it like in a PL deadlift, I am cool. ie, the lift can just about be dropped as long as you keep your grip on the bar.

[MalachiMcMullen]

I'm telling you from experience Burkhard, solid bars loaded with plates are harder to lift than hollow bars. All things being equal, the solid bar wants to rotate more than the hollow bar. This is fresh in my mind from this Saturday. I was at a strongman comp and during the warmups for the axle clean and press, everyone was worried we were going to use the 85lb solid bar instead of the hollow bar. The solid bar threw everyone for a loop because they didn't realize how much it wanted to rotate. I don't think we should play favorites with companies like Ironmind. If we are going to favorite, I can't think of too many companies other than IM and FBBC to favorite, but why not allow simple solid 2" bars?

Other than that, I agree with all the above points. We just need a list to be made now

[odin]

This again is all assuming that we want Euro style standardization of the axle. Jedd and David Horne should be consulted.

I'd also like to see input from Chris Rice, the California Heptathlon/Decathlon contest promoter, Anson or Scott, other German, European and Australian promoters and anyone else who regularly runs contests. Edited July 21, 2008 by odin

[burkhardmacht]

As long as "in control of the bar" means that your hands stay on it like in a PL deadlift, I am cool. ie, the lift can just about be dropped as long as you keep your grip on the bar.

Yeah, that shoud be ok!

[burkhardmacht]

I'm telling you from experience Burkhard, solid bars loaded with plates are harder to lift than hollow bars.

I made other experiences 3 months ago when I did OHDL with a solid Axle. It rotated less than my IM Axle so I was a lot stronger. But for me it's ok when we use solid and hollow bars - it's just not optimal because it's simply not the same - The IM Axle seems to be more logical because it's accepted in Strongman comps.

[MalachiMcMullen]

I'm telling you from experience Burkhard, solid bars loaded with plates are harder to lift than hollow bars.

I made other experiences 3 months ago when I did OHDL with a solid Axle. It rotated less than my IM Axle so I was a lot stronger. But for me it's ok when we use solid and hollow bars - it's just not optimal because it's simply not the same - The IM Axle seems to be more logical because it's accepted in Strongman comps.

We were all trying to full clean 175lbs on this solid bar, I just managed it, and so did one other but everyone else failed. I think that there were several guys in that group who went on and did 200+ on the hollow axle C & P, including myself The bar itself will want to rotate regardless of the weight loaded on it. I will concede, however, that I would fully accept it if the IM axle would become mandatory(I would also add that FBBC's axle should be added as well )

[andurniat]

I'm telling you from experience Burkhard, solid bars loaded with plates are harder to lift than hollow bars.

I made other experiences 3 months ago when I did OHDL with a solid Axle. It rotated less than my IM Axle so I was a lot stronger. But for me it's ok when we use solid and hollow bars - it's just not optimal because it's simply not the same - The IM Axle seems to be more logical because it's accepted in Strongman comps.

We were all trying to full clean 175lbs on this solid bar, I just managed it, and so did one other but everyone else failed. I think that there were several guys in that group who went on and did 200+ on the hollow axle C & P, including myself The bar itself will want to rotate regardless of the weight loaded on it. I will concede, however, that I would fully accept it if the IM axle would become mandatory(I would also add that FBBC's axle should be added as well )

Zach, at the strongman comp the tires used on the axles were set so could rotate freely, more similar to a standard olympic bar. When doing axle cleans in training, IronMind axle, doing straight cleans from the floor do rotate back into my very heavily. At the comp I was able to squat clean 280# purely because the bar rotated, otherwise I more than likely would have ended up on my back.

Now I don't have as much experience on solid axles to make a direct comparison. I would have to put them side by side with equal weight to be able to say.

[Matt Brouse]

It doesn't matter what bar is used or who makes it just so long as it is the same bar in every contest for record keeping purposes. You train with whatever you have but the competition is on a certain make and model of bar. This is exactly how we approach equipment in strongman.