A Case For Percentage Based Points Contest Scoring

[Jedd Johnson]

I could point out that most open competitions are won by tall, big handed, heavier members of the grip world than the opposite and that we have had many events consisting of two classes - open and novice - for many years.

Tall and heavy just happen to coincide with big hands. It's the hand size that matters most out of those three factors you listed.

[mobsterone]

Ok smart guy. Why don't you explain to me how it makes sense to use full bodyweight as a deciding factor and not something more specifically related to the execution of most of the lifts, like, say, hand size.

Handsize makes sense, bodyweight not - because the first is a more important factor in our sport. With handsize there's the problem to take not only hand lenght into consideration - hand span is a factor too. Perhaps we could do a point system which divides the competitors into different handclasses on the basis of the addition of the hand lenght and hand span. It sounds a bit complicated at first but it should work. Hand span is an important factor for blobs and fatbar.

The counter argument would be to say: bighanded guys have better genetics - so it's naturally that they win. But that does not mean that both types of comps can't exist parallel in the future.

It is complicated and there is no need to make it so and for precisely the reasons you state. I can see if being explained to a tv producer now.... '' yes we factor in hand width, palm length, divide by the length of the longest finger and that's how the classes are decided''. Now a reporter, now in your local newspapers... and how would it come across?? It would end up being decided on width x length or the surface area.

Nearly everyone agrees that our better athletes (top 10 record holders) are taller or heavier or have bigger muscle mass so do we need to have the small hand / large hand debate or should we, as I suggest, just use a standard already existing model from the rest of the strength arena.

[burkhardmacht]

Ok smart guy. Why don't you explain to me how it makes sense to use full bodyweight as a deciding factor and not something more specifically related to the execution of most of the lifts, like, say, hand size.

Handsize makes sense, bodyweight not - because the first is a more important factor in our sport. With handsize there's the problem to take not only hand lenght into consideration - hand span is a factor too. Perhaps we could do a point system which divides the competitors into different handclasses on the basis of the addition of the hand lenght and hand span. It sounds a bit complicated at first but it should work. Hand span is an important factor for blobs and fatbar.

The counter argument would be to say: bighanded guys have better genetics - so it's naturally that they win. But that does not mean that both types of comps can't exist parallel in the future.

The GGC has had hand size classes the last 2 or 3 years. We figured this would make more sense, since we were contesting wide objects like credit card set grippers, thick bar and block weights. However, it really hasn't seemed to help attendance to the contest. In fact, both years the attendance went down.

Yes I know - perhaps the system I proposed is even better, I don't know. I don't know why the attendance went down. We have the same problem with several contests in Europe - including the European Grip Champs this year (were cancelled). May be there are too many guys organizing comps. So everybody can choose a comp were he is good and which contest he should avoid... Less comps would be much better and would improve the importance of those comps.

[mobsterone]

I like Strongman scoring. If you want to win, move faster or lift more. I've been bumped out of $100 for winning events by .5 seconds before, but I wasn't as fast as the winner. I've won events by .1 seconds, so I was faster, or my hands were stronger. The only thing I have a problem with on percentages is that you're rewarding a lesser performance. A win is a win, a loss is a loss.

As in the BBB, all you had to do to get out of the block of guys that tied on the 45 Blob, was to lift it! It was a timed event, so if you went faster, that represents athleticism (and stronger grip, i.e. you could rip it up to the platform faster). Or tied on the axle, or tied on the Vbar - lift more & beat more guys. You're rewarded for being stronger or faster under Strongman scoring. That's competition. If you choose to not take a final attempt to conserve energy for later events, that's competition. I like to blow it out & see what I can do for the most part, but I've stopped endurance events when I know I had the win in my class & to go for an overall win would just trash me for the next event. On the other side of that, I've gone for extra attempts when I locked the win earlier because I felt good & wanted to see what I could do (usually on single rep strength events).

Just as a point, I'll use Strongman scoring at anything I run, be it Strongman or Grip. It's what I like & the fairest in my mind.

If we use some odd scoring that nobody outside the sport can figure out, we'll just be hurting our sport, as well.

My point 100%. Use the same as them to get more interested. Don't over egg the pudding.

Ok smart guy. Why don't you explain to me how it makes sense to use full bodyweight as a deciding factor and not something more specifically related to the execution of most of the lifts, like, say, hand size.

Handsize makes sense, bodyweight not - because the first is a more important factor in our sport. With handsize there's the problem to take not only hand lenght into consideration - hand span is a factor too. Perhaps we could do a point system which divides the competitors into different handclasses on the basis of the addition of the hand lenght and hand span. It sounds a bit complicated at first but it should work. Hand span is an important factor for blobs and fatbar.

The counter argument would be to say: bighanded guys have better genetics - so it's naturally that they win. But that does not mean that both types of comps can't exist parallel in the future.

The GGC has had hand size classes the last 2 or 3 years. We figured this would make more sense, since we were contesting wide objects like credit card set grippers, thick bar and block weights. However, it really hasn't seemed to help attendance to the contest. In fact, both years the attendance went down.

Thus proving another point. We need to grow and having given our members what should have been seen as a fairer method of competing it didn't work.

The ok smart guy comment was in reaction to your bullshit comment, "I can see ir now. Years later the history of our sport will read... 2005 they tried a new points system, year 2006 another, year 2007 another. All the while the other strength sports had long ago resolved these issues."

But true nevertheless. Even we had one system then adopted the german one I mentioned above. If we had agreed to take on the one suggested here that would have been three in three years. It wasn't BS it was factual.

I could point out that most open competitions are won by tall, big handed, heavier members of the grip world than the opposite and that we have had many events consisting of two classes - open and novice - for many years.

Tall and heavy just happen to coincide with big hands. It's the hand size that matters most out of those three factors you listed.

I do grip. I know. But agreeing that doesn't mean the adoption of hand sizing classes helps. You proved that above.

[Jedd Johnson]

I didn't say hand size classes didn't help. I said attendance went down when the classes were used.

It certainly helped the competitors who were in the smaller class finish high. In contests where there was only one class, those same competitors have often finished behind the bigger handed lifters.

Attendance went down, from feedback I have received, due to the use of the credit card set for grippers.

There is a correlation between hand size and body weight. Of course. But bodyweight alone will not dictate placement in a grip contest.

And again a ridiculous exaggeration : "can see if being explained to a tv producer now.... '' yes we factor in hand width, palm length, divide by the length of the longest finger and that's how the classes are decided''. Now a reporter, now in your local newspapers... and how would it come across?? It would end up being decided on width x length or the surface area." Ridiculous and pointless. Hyperbole isn't going to change my view on this.

I feel each promoter can use whatever system he wants.

Strongman scoring is very simple, quick and familiar. Percentage points seem a bit more accurate to me, so i am willing to use it even though it takes a bit more time to factor.

[climber511]

Every strength sport has some type of divisions so that smaller people can compete fairly. As far as I know they all use weight classes but grip may be different due to all the reasons put forth in a dozen or so threads. Without some relatively fair way of giving different sized people a chance - you'll end up with nothing but tall, large handed, muscular guys in grip and the rest of us will certainly move on to something else.

[jad]

Yes I know - perhaps the system I proposed is even better, I don't know. I don't know why the attendance went down. We have the same problem with several contests in Europe - including the European Grip Champs this year (were cancelled). May be there are too many guys organizing comps. So everybody can choose a comp were he is good and which contest he should avoid... Less comps would be much better and would improve the importance of those comps.

I think we need more comps, not less. We need to grow the sport and trying to limit people who want to compete to a few select contests with the same boring events isn't going to do it.. People SHOULD be able to choose which comps they''ll do better in and avoid the ones they won't. If you want people to show up at your contest pick events that people like or are interested in trying. BBB and Gripmas this year (I never been in the past) are perfect examples of this. Fuel prices are also a huge factor now both with driving and flying. I drove to gripmas and probably spent at least 140-150 bucks just on gas. Contests that are more centrally located will likely have better attendance imo.

[John Beatty]

Strongman has faced the dropping "per show" attendance, due to more & more shows. When I started, you went to every Strongman comp you heard of (which was 7-8 Nats included). Now it's 70-80. It'll go in waves, more guys will get interested, the shows will get overloaded, then more shows will open up & there will be less competitors, on & on, don't let dropping attendance get to you. Some guys seem to compete while single, then you lose them after marriage, families growing, etc. I used to do 8-10 shows per year, now I do 2-3. Natural attrition.

[Jedd Johnson]

Yes I know - perhaps the system I proposed is even better, I don't know. I don't know why the attendance went down. We have the same problem with several contests in Europe - including the European Grip Champs this year (were cancelled). May be there are too many guys organizing comps. So everybody can choose a comp were he is good and which contest he should avoid... Less comps would be much better and would improve the importance of those comps.

I think we need more comps, not less. We need to grow the sport and trying to limit people who want to compete to a few select contests with the same boring events isn't going to do it.. People SHOULD be able to choose which comps they''ll do better in and avoid the ones they won't. If you want people to show up at your contest pick events that people like or are interested in trying. BBB and Gripmas this year (I never been in the past) are perfect examples of this. Fuel prices are also a huge factor now both with driving and flying. I drove to gripmas and probably spent at least 140-150 bucks just on gas. Contests that are more centrally located will likely have better attendance imo.

Excellent points Josh. I fully agree.

[mobsterone]

I didn't say hand size classes didn't help. I said attendance went down when the classes were used.

It certainly helped the competitors who were in the smaller class finish high. In contests where there was only one class, those same competitors have often finished behind the bigger handed lifters.

Attendance went down, from feedback I have received, due to the use of the credit card set for grippers.

There is a correlation between hand size and body weight. Of course. But bodyweight alone will not dictate placement in a grip contest.

And again a ridiculous exaggeration : "can see if being explained to a tv producer now.... '' yes we factor in hand width, palm length, divide by the length of the longest finger and that's how the classes are decided''. Now a reporter, now in your local newspapers... and how would it come across?? It would end up being decided on width x length or the surface area." Ridiculous and pointless. Hyperbole isn't going to change my view on this.

I feel each promoter can use whatever system he wants.

Strongman scoring is very simple, quick and familiar. Percentage points seem a bit more accurate to me, so i am willing to use it even though it takes a bit more time to factor.

Yes an exaggeration and I seem to recall it being Burkies view not yours. The response was made with his idea in mind.

We have some live threads discussing the idea of setting standards, others forming an association and now you suggest promoters using whatever system they want?? My vote stays with strongman.

Edited December 16, 2007 by mobsterone

[EricMilfeld]

Here's a striking hypothetical example of why I believe a percentage or a total weight lifted (with a coefficient used to balance out the events that use heavier weights with those that use lighter, for example axle deadlifts and sledge hammers) system of scoring is the way to go. We'll use a powerlifting meet in the example, but it's equally applicable to a grip contest:

Bill: Squats 500, Benches 400, Deadlifts 500

Joe: Squats 495, Benches 395, Deadlifts 700

Using a strongman points system of scoring, Bill would win. Using a percentage based system or a total weight lifted system, Joe would win by a wide margin. Does anyone really believe that Bill is the better all around lifter?

[John Beatty]

But just to be the devil's advocate, you're saying that a more balanced lifter that places higher in more events, should be beaten by a guy with one really good lift?

I really agree with you in a sense, but I think grip more closely resembles strongman than PL. If all the events were for a weight total like PL, then highest total wins, but in mixing timed events, medleys, max attempts & so on....

Also, will the general public understand (who we're trying to interest in Grip) if in a 6 event comp, if Bill wins 4 of 6 events by a close margin, and Joe wins 2 events but by a wide margin, and Joe winds up winning overall, the public won't be scratching their heads going "what the hell?"

A comp could certainly be run where highest total wins in Grip. Which might be pretty fun.

Edited December 16, 2007 by John Beatty

[Too Tall]

For the first year of a true US Championship...we might need to keep things simple. I like the German system because it pushes you...but the strongman system might be the way to go for now to get the ball rolling. I like the example that Eric used...because if I were Bill I wouldn't want my ass to get kicked like that on the deads...because I would want to win all three lifts...that's the way I train for every event. Bending could have been my deads at the BBB3 like Bill in this example...but instead I went to work and got second with a pretty good bend at the BBB3...where as Joe kicked Bill's ass in the deads....I do not go for that crap.

This also happened to me at the Munsterland comp (using their point system)...where I needed to do a G8 reverse to take second in that event to keep my points up for the overall win. No matter the points system...he who trains the hardest and places in the top in each event will win...you cannot have a bad event either way. What do I know...I am just a competitor

[climber511]

For the first year of a true US Championship...we might need to keep things simple. I like the German system because it pushes you...but the strongman system might be the way to go for now to get the ball rolling. I like the example that Eric used...because if I were Bill I wouldn't want my ass to get kicked like that on the deads...because I would want to win all three lifts...that's the way I train for every event. Bending could have been my deads at the BBB3 like Bill in this example...but instead I went to work and got second with a pretty good bend at the BBB3...where as Joe kicked Bill's ass in the deads....I do not go for that crap.

This also happened to me at the Munsterland comp (using their point system)...where I needed to do a G8 reverse to take second in that event to keep my points up for the overall win. No matter the points system...he who trains the hardest and places in the top in each event will win...you cannot have a bad event either way. What do I know...I am just a competitor

Chad - we keep trying to find (and exploit) your weakness - please tell us what it is so we can take advantage of it!

[Bob Lipinski]

I think I will stay with the strongman system for now.

The biggest reason is simplicity for the competitors- They know easier what they will need to win. At my contests, simplicity for newer competitors is also a concern. I can't forget the fact that the majority of attendance at most of my shows consists of local guys who are into strength stuff and just come because they are my friends.

[Too Tall]

For the first year of a true US Championship...we might need to keep things simple. I like the German system because it pushes you...but the strongman system might be the way to go for now to get the ball rolling. I like the example that Eric used...because if I were Bill I wouldn't want my ass to get kicked like that on the deads...because I would want to win all three lifts...that's the way I train for every event. Bending could have been my deads at the BBB3 like Bill in this example...but instead I went to work and got second with a pretty good bend at the BBB3...where as Joe kicked Bill's ass in the deads....I do not go for that crap.

This also happened to me at the Munsterland comp (using their point system)...where I needed to do a G8 reverse to take second in that event to keep my points up for the overall win. No matter the points system...he who trains the hardest and places in the top in each event will win...you cannot have a bad event either way. What do I know...I am just a competitor

Chad - we keep trying to find (and exploit) your weakness - please tell us what it is so we can take advantage of it!

[EricMilfeld]

But just to be the devil's advocate, you're saying that a more balanced lifter that places higher in more events, should be beaten by a guy with one really good lift?

I really agree with you in a sense, but I think grip more closely resembles strongman than PL. If all the events were for a weight total like PL, then highest total wins, but in mixing timed events, medleys, max attempts & so on....

Also, will the general public understand (who we're trying to interest in Grip) if in a 6 event comp, if Bill wins 4 of 6 events by a close margin, and Joe wins 2 events but by a wide margin, and Joe winds up winning overall, the public won't be scratching their heads going "what the hell?"

A comp could certainly be run where highest total wins in Grip. Which might be pretty fun.

John, using the percentage method would actually insure that a more balanced lifter is not beaten by a less balanced lifter, provided something like a medley or a timed hold event is appropriately scored. I think someone who can stay within 5 pounds of someone else's squat and bench, and then out deadlift him by 200 pounds is the better lifter and more balanced.

But I think we do agree about the potential for a "total" system of scoring. I actually prefer this method and have successfully used it in the past. Here's how our German friends and I have done it:

1) Award the lift that is typically heaviest with a value of "1". So, for example, if this happens to be the axle, and you lift 400 pounds you're awarded with 400 pounds towards your total.

2) Assign all other lifts a coefficient that when multiplied by their typical poundage would yield the typical poundage of the heaviest lift (the axle). So, for example, if 300 pounds is considered a typical axle and 150 pounds is considered a typical pinch, then the pinch lift is given a coefficient of "2". So if you happen to pinch 190, you'd multiply by two and be awarded 380 pounds. Now you're running total is 780 pounds. It's really pretty simple once you decide on an accurate coefficient.

This total scoring system can also be applied to timed events and medleys. For example, you could award something like "1/4 pound" for each second an implement is held, or "20 pounds" for each implement loaded up onto the platform. And it has the advantage of allowing the competitors to easily determine what they need to lift to win.

[jad]

Here's a striking hypothetical example of why I believe a percentage or a total weight lifted (with a coefficient used to balance out the events that use heavier weights with those that use lighter, for example axle deadlifts and sledge hammers) system of scoring is the way to go. We'll use a powerlifting meet in the example, but it's equally applicable to a grip contest:

Bill: Squats 500, Benches 400, Deadlifts 500

Joe: Squats 495, Benches 395, Deadlifts 700

Using a strongman points system of scoring, Bill would win. Using a percentage based system or a total weight lifted system, Joe would win by a wide margin. Does anyone really believe that Bill is the better all around lifter?

I'm certainly in favor of percentage based scoring but IMO Bill is the better lifter in this example. He's better on two of the three lifts. Granted, Joe is much better on the deadlift but he is weaker on 2 of the three so why should be considered the better lifter?

The following illustrates why I don't like strongman: Suppose their are 12 other guys and Bill still gets 1st in the bench and squat but that deadlift nets him 14th. Under strongman scoring Bill just added 14 points to his total and now has a 16 for a score. Someone that took 5th in all three could beat him even though Bill won 2 of the 3 events. Like I said before, the scoring systems don't mean enough to me to ever prevent me from competing but since we're discussing them...

Edited December 17, 2007 by jad

[Bob Lipinski]

Eric-

The biggest problem with what you mentioned is that untested/unique events are not always predictable, and the scoring can easily become unbalanced if you aren't right.

[jad]

I agree with Bob, I see some problems with the coefficient system. I really liked Chris Rice's Gripmas scoring system and the fact that it's already in electronic format would make it easy to standardize things.

[EricMilfeld]

Here's a striking hypothetical example of why I believe a percentage or a total weight lifted (with a coefficient used to balance out the events that use heavier weights with those that use lighter, for example axle deadlifts and sledge hammers) system of scoring is the way to go. We'll use a powerlifting meet in the example, but it's equally applicable to a grip contest:

Bill: Squats 500, Benches 400, Deadlifts 500

Joe: Squats 495, Benches 395, Deadlifts 700

Using a strongman points system of scoring, Bill would win. Using a percentage based system or a total weight lifted system, Joe would win by a wide margin. Does anyone really believe that Bill is the better all around lifter?

I'm certainly in favor of percentage based scoring but IMO Bill is the better lifter in this example. He's better on two of the three lifts. Granted, Joe is much better on the deadlift but he is weaker on 2 of the three so why should be considered the better lifter?

The following illustrates why I don't like strongman: Suppose their are 12 other guys and Bill still gets 1st in the bench and squat but that deadlift nets him 14th. Under strongman scoring Bill just added 14 points to his total and now has a 16 for a score. Someone that took 5th in all three could beat him even though Bill won 2 of the 3 events. Like I said before, the scoring systems don't mean enough to me to ever prevent me from competing but as we're discussing them...

That's a good example, too, Josh.

My point with my hypothetical was that Bill only beat Joe by a measly 5 pounds on two lifts, but was in turn beaten by a monstrous 200 pounds on the other lift. I still say, as would powerlifting scoring, Joe's the stronger all around athlete. I don't know, maybe my thinking is skewed by years of thinking in terms of a powerlifting total to measure strength...

[Bob Lipinski]

For the record, I do not see anything wrong with the German system overall, I just think that scoring method should not be enforced. Too many promoters will say "screw you" and do what they want.

However, I think that it might be a good idea to standardize scoring with the Europeans for a Nationals. If nothing else it would serve to prepare Amercians for international competition.

[EricMilfeld]

Eric-

The biggest problem with what you mentioned is that untested/unique events are not always predictable, and the scoring can easily become unbalanced if you aren't right.

True. It would just take us some time to figure out the appropriate coefficient. But for the events that have already become standardized I think it would work quite well.

[jad]

I forgot about your powerlifting background Eric; I can see where you're coming from now.

[climber511]

For the record, I do not see anything wrong with the German system overall, I just think that scoring method should not be enforced. Too many promoters will say "screw you" and do what they want.

However, I think that it might be a good idea to standardize scoring with the Europeans for a Nationals. If nothing else it would serve to prepare Amercians for international competition.

It's that screw you attitude that will stop any progress in putting together a US Grip Organization of any kind. If compromise isn't possible, then we are doomed.