A Case For Percentage Based Points Contest Scoring

[EricMilfeld]

I'd just like to humbly suggest that contest directors at least consider using the type of scoring system used most recently by Chris Rice at Gripmas Carol. I've used it at The Show of Hands Grip Cup and the Gripboard Grip Bashes we'd have here on the board. If my topic title is confusing, I'm referring to awarding ten points to the winner of each event with all the other finishers receiving a proportionate point value based on their performance. I think it is by far the fairest system of scoring. For example, someone who excels at a given event will be duly rewarded, and of course the opposite is true. In other words, every little additional pound you lift or extra second you hold onto a device will help your final score. I think that the strongman system of scoring can yield very misleading results. It can also set up for a very anticlimactic ending to a contest when a competitor discovers he can basically sit out the last event and still win, whereas this would be far less likely to happen with a percentage points system. It is much more complex to score, and that's probably why some have chosen not to use it. But if you can get someone handy with a computer spreadsheet thingy (certainly not me, I use paper and a calculator) it will prove well worth it.

What do all the contest promoters and contestants think?

[bencrush]

As a competitor I think the idea of using the percentage based scoring is great. I like the fact that it appears to really illustrate who the better competitor is by minimizing ties and rewarding going for broke.

[MalachiMcMullen]

I like the idea. I never really liked strongman scoring to be honest, always seemed alittle screwy and as you said it could make for an anti-climactic ending.

[odin]

I'd just like to humbly suggest that contest directors at least consider using the type of scoring system used most recently by Chris Rice at Gripmas Carol. I've used it at The Show of Hands Grip Cup and the Gripboard Grip Bash's we'd have here on the board. If my topic title is confusing, I'm referring to awarding ten points to the winner of each event with all the other finishers receiving a proportionate point value based on their performance. I think it is by far the fairest system of scoring. For example, someone who excels at a given event will be duly rewarded, and of course the opposite is true. In other words, every little additional pound you lift or extra second you hold onto a device will help your final score. I think that the strongman system of scoring can yield very misleading results. It can also set up for a very anticlimactic ending to a contest when a competitor discovers he can basically sit out the last event and still win, whereas this would be far less likely to happen with a percentage points system. It is much more complex to score, and that's probably why some have chosen not to use it. But if you can get someone handy with a computer spreadsheet thingy (certainly not me, I use paper and a calculator) it will prove well worth it.

What do all the contest promoters and contestants think?

I'd have to analyze it a lot more. Have you tried seeing what the Gripmas results would have been with the strongman system? The only disadvantage I can think of, using intuition only is:

-some events lend themselves to wider separation between first and last than others, I think this may need to be addressed or adjusted. Take a look at the first three events vs. the last three and the differences between first and last. Perhaps it could be argued that the first three were brute strength/low skill, while the last three involved more technique as well (which was one reason I did better on the first three-contest inexperience/lack of technical skill).

I think a professional statistician's consultation may be in order in order to avoid "artifacts" or statistical distortions that may inflate/deflate particular events' importance.

No disrespect is intended to the developers of the new system, I think it is fun and interesting, perhaps a few tweaks if anything.

Edited December 11, 2007 by odin

[Bob Lipinski]

For the novice promoter, strongman is easier because it makes things less complicated.

Just doing a quick rundown, using my system, it would have went:

1. Jedd-17 points

2. Dave Thorton- 27 points

3. Josh Dale- 28 points

4. Eric Milfel- 29 points

[Bob Lipinski]

Let's say that we were to use this as the beginning of developing a US grip fed, if all people who promote and compete in contests were to vote, I would go with whatever the majority would decide.

You know, if we were interested in that sort of thing

[climber511]

One thing I will throw out there - the program my son made up to do the scoring. I will gladly send it to any promoter anywhere free of charge. It's just an Excel sheet and I'm sure others can easily and perhaps better design one but this one worked pretty slick and took all the hassle out of the scoring and provided instant updates for planning purposes.

[EricMilfeld]

One thing I will throw out there - the program my son made up to do the scoring. I will gladly send it to any promoter anywhere free of charge. It's just an Excel sheet and I'm sure others can easily and perhaps better design one but this one worked pretty slick and took all the hassle out of the scoring and provided instant updates for planning purposes.

I couldn't believe how quickly he was able to post the results with running up to the minute rankings of 22 gripsters.

[odin]

One thing I will throw out there - the program my son made up to do the scoring. I will gladly send it to any promoter anywhere free of charge. It's just an Excel sheet and I'm sure others can easily and perhaps better design one but this one worked pretty slick and took all the hassle out of the scoring and provided instant updates for planning purposes.

I couldn't believe how quickly he was able to post the results with running up to the minute rankings of 22 gripsters.

It really is an incredibly elegant computer program that your designed. It took me a minute to grasp what the numbers meant, but it was a lot of fun to see the scoring updated after each event.

The strongman scoring seems like a blunt and primitive instrument in comparison.

Edited December 11, 2007 by odin

[mobsterone]

Let's say that we were to use this as the beginning of developing a US grip fed, if all people who promote and compete in contests were to vote, I would go with whatever the majority would decide.

You know, if we were interested in that sort of thing

And wouldn't it be nice

[jad]

Interesting how different scoring systems change the placings...

[climber511]

I have to assume the Strongman scoring could be put into an Excel program as well. In this age of laptops everywhere - it does offer a quicker way of tracking and updating. It would be nice if those of you with better math skills and systems understanding could explain the advantages and disadvantages of both in a contest setting with both large and small numbers of competitors.

[mobsterone]

Interesting how different scoring systems change the placings...

It shouldn't. The lifter lifting the most weight, squeezing the hardest gripper etc should still win. Ditto winning the most events. Only when ties happen should any other system be looked at. David Horne suggested using the German system which we used this year.

[climber511]

Interesting how different scoring systems change the placings...

It shouldn't. The lifter lifting the most weight, squeezing the hardest gripper etc should still win. Ditto winning the most events. Only when ties happen should any other system be looked at. David Horne suggested using the German system which we used this year.

Steve - could you explain the German System please?

[dthor]

Eric: First of all it was nice finally getting the chance to meet you.

With that said, I prefer the strongman scoring.

It keeps things simple and less complicated. It has worked very well for strongman, and most people can relate to it better.

I personally like Strongman Scoring, because it forces you to bring up your weak points. A weak or average event for a bigger Contest can cost you big under Strongman System.

I feel the percentage system encourages competitors to play it safe and lift within their abilities. I would rather see two competitors go head to head under strongman with one getting 10 points and the other getting 9. Under the percentage system why not just play it safe and get 9.9 points for 2nd.

Lastly, the results for timed holds or repitition lifts can be skewed under the Percentage Based System. For instance if competitors lift 200#s on the rolling thunder for max reps in 30 seconds. The winner lifts the weight 10 times and gets 10 points. The 2nd place competitor lifts the weight 1 time and gets 1 point. Is he 1/10 as strong as the winner? Obviously, this will give the one event much more weight than the others in the Contest.

Anyway, just a few things to think about. No more long posts for awhile.

[jad]

Using Dave's example, isn't percentage based scoring still forcing you to bring up your weak events and really encouraging you to go for it, if your good at an event because you can build a bigger lead? Maybe I'm confused as I'm only 2 cups of coffee into the day.

[dthor]

Josh: the way I see it, a weak event under Strongman scoring can get you 0 points, especially at a bigger Contest. Under Percentage based scoring you could still end up with 7 or 8 points.

[climber511]

Scoring systems.

Strongman

German

Percentage

Others?

One thing a scoring system needs to do – be fair no matter the number of competitors.

Obviously reward the strongest man that day – but also not penalize any others farther down.

As an aside, I don’t like it when the individual event results result in someone not having to give their best performance in each and every event. That’s one issue with Strongman scoring – once you’ve won an event, there is no advantage to going higher. That was the main reason I used the percentage system – by continuing on, one can gain further advantage over the others.

The “luck of the draw” factor, especially in timed events – being last or towards the last competitor to go. Knowing what you need to do to beat the last guy in say the “Hercules Hold” or “Plate Hold” is a huge advantage over not knowing. I think to be fair, maybe times should not be announced until everyone is done. It certainly does make it more exciting to watch though. I don’t have a solution but it might be something to discuss at some point. This is kind of outside the actual scoring system though.

“Strategy “ on what weight to attempt next is and has been a part of competition forever and quickly updated results make this a possibility no matter the system. I imagine any system could be adapted to the computer though for immediate results. Ideally, a projector could put the results up on the wall for all to see. We had the ability to do it at Gripmas but I didn’t know it until we were almost done. DARN! That would have been cool.

Just some food for thought.

[jad]

Josh: the way I see it, a weak event under Strongman scoring can get you 0 points, especially at a bigger Contest. Under Percentage based scoring you could still end up with 7 or 8 points.

Isn't strongman like golf; lowest score wins? So the bigger the comp, the more penalty you pay for a bad event. I guess the question is could you overcome losing 2-3 points in the percentage based, considering hundreths were separating several of us most of the contest, easier than getting hit with a 18 or 19 on strongman (assuming a 20 man contest)? I prefer the percentage based but scoring systems aren't something I care enough about right now to prevent me from competing.

[Bob Lipinski]

One thing-

At any of the contests I have been to with strongman scoring, I have never seen somebody hold back. In fact, I never thought about this before, but Dave is right- With strongman scoring you get the awesome battles that matter, like Ryan and Chad going head to head on the vbar and axle.

And with the sport as young as it is, most of the guys winning for events are shooting for some kind of record anyways.

[jad]

Regarding Strongman/people holding back: I know at BBB3, Chad passed on his final attempt on grippers and I thought he had a vbar attempt left? Considering he he fully locked out 290 and made eye contact with the spectators it was hardly a limit lift for him.

Wouldn't you get the same battles with percentage based? For example, if Jedd pinched 230 to win the 2HP, wouldn't Dave get more points for pinching 220 vs. 215, even if 3rd place was 200? With Strongman, wouldn't Dave get the same score for second regardless of what he pinched?

[The Mac]

You only have to watch Mariusz - in many events he does just enough to win.

I think in general a percentage point system rewards higher quality performances.

[climber511]

Could someone explain the German scoring system to me?

[The Mac]

You only have to watch Mariusz - in many events he does just enough to win.

I think in general a percentage point system rewards higher quality performances.

I meant to say "I think in general a percentage point system rewards higher quality performances, Strongman scoring dominates more dominant performances".

This is just my general perception, there are always cases that don't apply.

[mobsterone]

Could someone explain the German scoring system to me?

It's on the BHSA pages on David's site